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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 1 2014, 11:46pm
Post #1 of 11
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Did Gandalf ride Gwaihir in The Hobbit?
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(This subject has probably been broached before, but perhaps a fresh look.) BOOKS ONLY PLEASE
We must start near the end of LOTR, after The Ring’s destruction, where Gandalf says:
”Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend. . .Thrice shall pay for all. . .” The Field of Cormallen The first was the rescue from Orthanc, and the second the rescue from Zirak- zigal. This third would be from the slag hills to Mt. Doom.
Taking Gandalf’s statement as correct then Gwaihir did not carry Gandalf in the rescue from the trees in The Hobbit, as this would constitute a fourth ride. Although Gwaihir could have been involved in the tree rescue (he just didn’t carry Gandalf) and/or The Battle of Five Armies, (assuming here the descendants of Thorondor had a decent lifespan as it was some 79 years from Bilbo’s finding of The Ring to its destruction).
Some have assumed that either Tolkien or Gandalf simply forgot about the rescue in The Hobbit; but those who have read Letters of JRR Tolkien realize his attention to detail, and his doggedly persistence at accuracy as he went over and over his manuscript attempting to achieve a realistic consistency. Yet, even so he might be forgiven a rare inaccurate date, or some other triviality, but to overlook such a major occurrence as riding a Great Eagle is beyond incredibly unbelievable.
As for Gandalf forgetting this fourth ride (actually would be the first ride) consider his statement during An Unexpected Party:
”And Thrain your father went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday. . .” Not the words of one who is forgetful, au contraire. As with Tolkien, it would seem amazingly incredible that Gandalf would forget the rescue from the trees in The Hobbit.
Coming soon to a Post near you: Was Gwaihir The Lord of the Eagles?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold
and leaves of gold there grew.
Of wind I sang, a wind there came,
and in the branches blew."
I, Narvi, didn't make this up, but I made some other real neat stuff.
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Apr 1 2014, 11:48pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 2 2014, 1:33am
Post #2 of 11
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I've never given it a lot of thought, but frankly it comes down to believing Gandalf, or not. If we believe him - that is, if we credit him with both a memory of his own life and an ability to count - then the eagle in The Lord of the Rings called Gwaihir is not the same eagle as the "Lord of the Eagles" in The Hobbit. The "third time shall pay for all" line clearly includes only the eagle-carrying-wizard episodes described in LotR.
Quickly checking, I find that this position is taken by Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull in their LotR: A Reader's Companion (p. 622). In their footnote on that page they report that both Douglas Anderson in The Annotated Hobbit, 2nd Ed., and Anders Stenstrom agree as well; Stenstrom actually debated this question in an entire article in the journal Beyond Breein April-May 1987 before deciding for the negative. For the other side, Hammond and Scull simply say, "some have argued that Gandalf may have been miscounting."
I think this is another example of the idea that The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings occupy slightly different dimensions of the Tolkien legendarium. Tolkien never completely reconciled the two books, and it's not clear whether he actually wanted to. I remember thinking, when I first read The Lord of the Rings, that surely this eagle was the same one as in The Hobbit; but the text is clear that it isn't. As you say, Tolkien thought of this kind of thing as important, and tried to avoid mistakes like this. All the clever devices in the world along the lines of "Bilbo's story" versus "Frodo's story" and "Scribes of Gondor's stories" doesn't really help here, since what is being debated is a speech by Gandalf, who either said "thrice" correctly -- or not. So I say Gwaihir is not the noble eagle of The Hobbit.
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Matthias132
The Shire
Apr 2 2014, 2:24am
Post #3 of 11
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The Hobbit did come before the LotR, so Tolkien may have decided to keep the Lord of the Eagles as Thorondor, but in LotR he decided to change it to Gwaihir. I dont really have a guesstimation on lifespans, but I can see how this proves an interesting discussion because of Tolkien's attention to detail. Perhaps he meant for it to be Gwaihir, but that would not really make sense because I think he would have gone back and named the lord in the Hobbit, and mentioned a 4th ride; Gandalf is not called the wisest of the Maiar for no reason (Silamrillion - Ainulindale, of the Maiar).
This definitely poses as quite the baffling situation. But I definitely have to agree that Gwaihir was not the Lord of the Eagles in the Hobbit. Bard probably shot the old one down, and Gwaihir took his spot. I really like that question, and I had not thought of that until you brought it up. Very interesting.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 2 2014, 4:31am
Post #4 of 11
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For the other side, Hammond and Scull simply say, "some have argued that Gandalf may have been miscounting."
I think Hammond and Scull are a little grasping here. Gandalf the White would have no trouble doing a quick count to 3 or 4. Of course they leave themselves an ‘out’ with the word “some”.
Tolkien never completely reconciled the two books, and it's not clear whether he actually wanted to. True to a point, nevertheless that would be a very significant faux pas for Tolkien to make.
Interestingly, Tyler in his Complete Guide states that “He [Gwaihir] and his eagles rescued Gandalf and Thorin and Company from orcs.” This is, of course conjecture, as the name “Gwaihir” doesn’t appear in The Hobbit.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 2 2014, 4:58am
Post #5 of 11
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so Tolkien may have decided to keep the Lord of the Eagles as Thorondor, but in LotR he decided to change it to Gwaihir. A possibility, though it has been proposed that Thorondor went into the West at the end of the First Age, (One old bird!) (But not Gwaihir; that's for an upcoming post.)
Cheers  And be ye not baffled.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold
and leaves of gold there grew.
Of wind I sang, a wind there came,
and in the branches blew."
I, Narvi, didn't make this up, but I made some other real neat stuff.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 2 2014, 12:28pm
Post #6 of 11
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Could you present the seeming difficulty here?
Of course we have eagles in one tale and in the other, but I'm guessing it's more than that or it wouldn't be much of an issue. I'm guessing the question arises due to either a title, or titles, given to one or more eagles, or a characterization of 'greatest' perhaps, that makes it seem like Gwaehir should, or might also be, 'King of all Birds' from The Hobbit?
But since we have a time difference for the two tales, I'm also guessing -- if in fact the matter is about the descriptions I raised in general [but who is called what, specifically, and when] -- that we can arguably reconcile things without needing to accept a discrepancy due to authorship [Bilbo versus Frodo], for example.
Admittedly I'm doing a lot of unhelpful guessing so far
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 2 2014, 12:33pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 2 2014, 6:34pm
Post #7 of 11
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I'm guessing the question arises due to either a title, or titles, given to one or more eagles, or a characterization of 'greatest' perhaps, that makes it seem like Gwaehir should, or might also be, 'King of all Birds' from The Hobbit?
Well, it seems (correctly) the consensus is that Gwaihir was NOT the Lord of the Eagles in The Hobbit, but that Gandalf DID ride the Lord of the Eagles (not Gwaihir) who became King of All Birds at some distant time. But since we have a time difference for the two tales, I'm also guessing -- if in fact the matter is about the descriptions I raised in general [but who is called what, specifically, and when] -- that we can arguably reconcile things without needing to accept a discrepancy due to authorship [Bilbo versus Frodo], for example. As far as the written word, we need accept no “discrepancy due to authorship” (Bilbo vs Frodo) Specifically, the name “Gwaihir” does not appear in H. Specifically he could NOT be Lord of the Eagles, nor King of all Birds (at that time).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 2 2014, 8:20pm
Post #8 of 11
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I am of the opinion that the Lord of the Eagles from The Hobbit is likely the sire or grandsire of Gwaihir from The Lord of the Rings.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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dik-dik
Lorien
Apr 2 2014, 8:26pm
Post #9 of 11
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Thank you for pointing this out!
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The contradiction never occurred to me. I automatically supposed it was Gwaihir in TH. 
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 2 2014, 9:30pm
Post #10 of 11
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... for more specific citations, for easy comparison in the thread, as to why people think there is even a seeming 'contradiction' here in the first place, as someone just posted. I get what you're saying about Gwaehir 'specifically' not being named in The Hobbit, but there must be something [I assume] more than 'we have eagles in both' for someone [Anders Stenstrom] to actually write a paper about the matter.
In other words, what is the Eagle called in The Hobbit, specifically...
... then how much time elapsed...
... then what is Gwaehir called in The Lord of the Rings? Specifically 
In other, other words, I assume people are not just assuming that the Eagle from The Hobbit is Gwaehir... simply because both are Eagles.
Or is the theory based on: we have large impressive eagles in both stories? I dunno, this argument is new to me and I'm not sure yet what all the details are.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 2 2014, 9:35pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 2 2014, 11:43pm
Post #11 of 11
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I just started a new post on Gwaihir that may touch on some of your concerns.
MAIN: "Who's the Lord of the Eagles"
Cheers
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Contact Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.
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