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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 31 2014, 11:16pm
Post #1 of 28
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Would Eru receive the souls of Hurin and Turin?
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A little thought. As both of these men committed suicide. Quite a major sin against both Tolkien's world, according to Gandalf anyway, and to Tolkien's Catholic beliefs. Despite both of them been tragic heros and having mitigating circumstances, they did do this deed. Now if it was forbidden to Denethor, it must have been forbidden to these two as well. Not that I am an expert in these matters, but I am wondering. Or maybe their heroic deeds might counterweight the suicide. And maybe Turin had a justified reason to do so. He didn't want to hurt anyone else with his curse. Thoughts?
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Mar 31 2014, 11:21pm)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 1 2014, 1:01am
Post #2 of 28
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Well, it was never spelled out what exactly the Fate of Men was "What the One has purposed for Men is hidden', but I do recall that in the few notes pertaining to the end of time in Arda and Dagor Dagorath, Turin is there, resurrected to fight with Morgoth alongside a few other characters whose identities change between drafts. Turin, however, plays a critical part in stabbing Morgoth to the heart with Anglachel to avenge the sufferings of his family and settle the score Men have with Morgoth. So it would seem that Turin finds some redemption, though it is strange, as you say, considering the Catholic position on suicide.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Mikah
Lorien
Apr 1 2014, 1:15am
Post #3 of 28
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Mitigating circumstances perhaps?
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I believe that the curse placed upon the family of Hurin holds more power in Tolkien's world than we perhaps understand. There were plenty of people that Morgoth despised...namely everyone. With extra special attention given to whoever was High King of the Noldor at the time and of course, Feanor. But, I can think of no one else that Morgoth blatantly cursed with the malice he did Hurin and his kin. Could this perhaps be why Tolkien would find their suicides more forgivable?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 1 2014, 2:08am
Post #4 of 28
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We did discuss the mechanics of the curse...
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In an earlier read through of the Sil, and I wondered what kind of power it had.
Mindful of the end of the tale, I always thought that the "curse" was a powerful part of "fate", set in motion by Morgoth. As a more powerful being, he could definitely set things in action, calculated to bring an end. Contrast his schemes for Evil, to the Valar's for the Will of Eru. These dominating forces could be described as "fate makers" if you will.
Also, consider the trend in the Professor's works, that "will" is often shown to be true inner power, dominating brute strength.
Accepting the former supposition as true, remember Eru's gift to the Atani, "to shape their lives beyond the fate of the world" (emphasis mine) . Eru also said that nothing could be done in his despite, but it would redound to his glory. His, the ultimate "will".
Taking these opinions as fact, certain things can be "willed" or "fated" to happen, by higher powers. These things bind both the world, and Elves as part of it, to obey them. The Atani/Men, however, have it inside of them, to defy these "willed fates", benevolent or otherwise. A truer "free will" then, is theirs.
That said, I believe the true tragedy of the CoH, lies in the fact that Turin could not master his own will to shape his fate beyond Morgoth's dark designs. He came close, as it is said that Morgoth's scheme "almost came to naught", but Turin was never able to realise the power within him.
I went on to muse on the area of effect and efficacy of the curse.
In Doriath, it is said that Morgoth feared Turin will pass beyond him. Maybe this pocket of land, under Melian's protection, was shielded from ill-will. Here Turin might not be tormented by any clouding influence on his mind that Morgoth could have had.
It is also said later that Morgoth was glad to know where Turin was. Does this imply that his willed malice had greater effect when directed to one area? A lot of bad things seem to happen when Morgoth knows where Turin is.
Morgoth also fears that Turin may become so great, that he would escape his malice/curse. Could the moral/spiritual power of maturing heroism, feed in to a inner strength that allows one to contest the psychical powers in the unseen realm?
Lots of good discussion to come from the 'curse' and I trust we will have new insight when we begin the read-through of the CoH.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 1 2014, 7:16am
Post #5 of 28
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Depends on the definition of Eru.
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Everyone knows Tolkien was a devout Catholic. But ...
His "creation myth" was entirely original, as was his "Pantheon" of Valar (gods). He was clearly intending to develop an original mythology. So... Why should we think that Tolkien's Eru obeyed Catholic rules regarding suicide?
In both the cases presented in this tale, the principals killed themselves because their continued existence brought only additional woe. They were cursed. There was no option for redemption. They did the 'right thing' in the circumstance.
We have no reason to believe that Eru "received" any souls. We have a hint that, for Men, beyond Death was "more than memory." We don't know what. We have no 'rules' for Men. As far as I can tell, Hurin and Turin did the only thing they could in the circumstances.
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dik-dik
Lorien
Apr 1 2014, 7:39am
Post #6 of 28
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We could say almost the same about Miriel...
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... i.e. that she ended her life of her own will, and yet she was accepted to Mandos. So I don't think JRRT considers suicides and willing deaths a separation from Eru's goodwill, though at least the Laws of the Eldar consider it a flaw. Just my opinion.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Apr 1 2014, 1:18pm
Post #7 of 28
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She also committed suicide.
I cannot blame any of the children of Hurin for taking their own lives, however. They were accursed and everything they did turned to ill.
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Matthias132
The Shire
Apr 2 2014, 2:37am
Post #8 of 28
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I read in a letter, before the Book of Lost Tales, that stated Tolkien wanted to create a whole new mythology for England because they had none. He was original, but you cannot deny the fact that much of his beliefs (i.e. Catholic), and experiences with his philology did not have some impact on his morals. I think it is quite probable that he viewed Suicide as something terrible. I think he balanced the curse, and suicide with something good, and I believe that they were given a second chance by Manwe, Eru, Mandos, or anyone else. It is definitely an interesting question, but I feel like they received some just recompense for their actions.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
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Gimloid
The Shire
Apr 3 2014, 7:14pm
Post #9 of 28
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The moral concerns surrounding death are not the same as in this world...
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In Doriath, it is said that Morgoth feared Turin will pass beyond him. Maybe this pocket of land, under Melian's protection, was shielded from ill-will. Here Turin might not be tormented by any clouding influence on his mind that Morgoth could have had.
This, I think, is certainly true. It is explicitly stated to be Melian's protective shield that allows Hurin to clear his head of Morgoth's influence after he has thrown the Nauglamir at Thingol's feet with scornful words, and re-present it in a more humble manner.
As regards suicide in a more general sense, it seems less clear-cut than it does in this world. Death is said to be the gift of Iluvatar to Men, and accepting the gift voluntarily is not necessarily a negative act. The Numenorean kings initially used to lay down their lives of their own accord as they neared the end while they were still healthy, in a form of self-administered voluntary euthanasia, which was regarded as the right thing to do, and it was not until they were corrupted by Sauron that they began to hold onto their lives until old age took them involuntarily. As far as I understand Catholic doctrine it is entirely opposed to voluntary euthanasia and considers that holding on to life until death comes of itself is the right thing to do.
Also, the initial question is unanswerable as we are given no information as to what happens to Men after death; we don't know if the souls of Men are received by Eru in the general case, so we have no basis to work out what might happen in a specific case.
The theological framework of Ea is not the same as that of this world, and consequently the moral concerns around death and suicide of Men in particular are also different. On the other hand it is evident that Tolkien was very concerned with creating a fictional theology that was not in any way blasphemous in Catholic terms. I feel sure that these surface discrepancies must be resolvable at a deeper level, but I know too little of Catholic philosophy to have any idea how this might work.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 4 2014, 1:39am
Post #10 of 28
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Always nice to see new people in the Reading Room!!
I wholeheartedly agree with many of your points, especially the different-but-familiar idea of theology in Arda. Perhaps there is no spelt out answer, but I could imagine that if the Gift and voluntary death was from Eru, that a dictate from him would overule all other objections. Normally, and out of Eru prescribed situations, self-inflicted death could be bad, but in certain cases it could be acceptable. Like animal lovers. If some people decided to go back to altars, burning animals, and sacrificing to whomever, some animal lovers might be upset. Wasted food, cruelty, unnecessary death, or other reasons abound, but if the same people followed that animal sacrificing creed, they might make an exception for a religious reason.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 5 2014, 1:05am
Post #12 of 28
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All excellent points. My own IMVHO feeling is that since Turin and Kullervo have such a thematic link, the self-slaughter is integral to the story as it is transferred from the Finnish legend to JRRT's world. So perhaps the need to have that echo supersedes the morality of the act itself?
Purely UUT of course!  Wonderful to read your ideas BTW!
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
**And Rem, you are doing that CoH chapter. Don't forget. **
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Gimloid
The Shire
Apr 5 2014, 3:42am
Post #13 of 28
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I have not read the Kalevala, I'm afraid... maybe I ought to do something about this :)
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Matthias132
The Shire
Apr 5 2014, 5:13am
Post #14 of 28
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Yeah, I need to read the Kalevela and Beowulf :/
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It is kinda shameful to not have read them D:
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 7 2014, 10:40am
Post #15 of 28
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Would they go to a Christian version of heaven!
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 7 2014, 6:34pm
Post #16 of 28
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...on what version of "Christian" and in which century. In the strictest Catholic interpretation, unless you've received the Last Rites you're out of luck. Obviously there was no such thing in ME. Current Christian thinking (in general, with variations depending on which denomination) is that God is wise and merciful and will do the right thing.
With respect to Tolkien, though, his insistence that the Numenorians could decide "it's time" is perilously close to suicide, and Hurin and Turin certainly had a lot of justification. So I think that despite his deep convictions he was bending the rules for his Secondary World.
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PhantomS
Rohan
Apr 8 2014, 8:33am
Post #17 of 28
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The Numenoreans only decided it was "time" when they felt themselves finally succumbing to old age, when the gift of life was slowly withdrawing from them. They did not decide "oh I've had a good run, goodbye old chaps!". They had lived centuries in good health and strong bodies , hence were given the opportunity to die without decades of being old and lost in dotage. It's hardly suicide when the Creator gives one the ability to sense death and approach it with dignity and willingness. The Men of old such as Beor also accepted death in old age, but the Numenoreans were given the foresight as to when their bodies would expire, a true gift.
I would classify Hurin and Turin as 'lost souls' when they killed themselves; Hurin was tortured by Morgoth to the point of insanity while Turin was jerked around by Morgoth so much and committed another Middle-Earth no-no; incest, albeit unwittingly. In Middle Earth a lot of people die of grief, but it seems Hurin and Turin died out of grief for their own lost happiness.
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Calardan
Registered User
Apr 10 2014, 3:36pm
Post #18 of 28
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Gi suilon! I'm a new member, but I can already tell that i'll be spending a lot of time here. I love the idea of a dedicated board for Tolkien's books and discussion therein. So as for the topic;
I think that not only did Mr. Melkor cause extensive woe and suffering, he was in many ways (magical or otherwise) manipulating the lives of the House of Hador. I think that this may extend to the suicides of each of those mentioned here. They were all of them driven to the suicides by horrible loss/grief or shame, but the majority of the points made so far in this discussion aren't lending enough agency to Morgoth himself as being implicated in the suicides outright. What I'm getting at here is that the suicides (assuming they are sinful as purported in this thread and Tolkien's Catholicism) were direct machinations of Morgoth and his malevolent intentions. Be it a leap from a cliff, or a quasi-sentient sword to the gut, these suicidal acts were tantamount to demonic possession. Turin and company were clearly being controlled by the will of Morgoth (or Glaurung's spell) at the very least intermittently. I cannot accept that they would be judged in the eyes of Mandos as having really anything to do with their own deaths.
Aiya Eärendil elenion ancalima!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 10 2014, 10:21pm
Post #19 of 28
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Welcome to the Reading Room, Calardan! I hope you enjoy our discussions here.
I wonder if for comparison's sake if we should also consider the suicides of Maglor and Maedhros (Maglor's fate isn't certain, but it's assumed he threw himself in the ocean the way his brother threw himself in a pit of fire). They had the Doom of Mandos on them and were twisted by their own foul Oath. How does that compare to a curse by Morgoth? Were their suicides on the same moral plane of judgment as Hurin, Turin, and Nienor? Would their souls get into Mandos, or be blown away on the wind like Saruman's with nowhere to go?
I don't fully understand the mechanics of Morgoth's curse myself. How much free will was left to these people? Is it the sort of thing that if they crossed a street, they were doomed to kick someone just because they were walking?
Does the curse operate like a drug? People can be drugged (or drunk) and have impaired judgment that they have no control over. I'm never clear on if Morgoth's curse was external to them or had an internal control of them also.
But for the original question, I doubt there's an answer. Eru was Tolkien's creation based on his personal view of God, but you can ask two Catholics whether a certain person would be forgiven for a suicide, and you can get two answers, or a different answer, of course, depending on if the person committing suicide was close to them or just a name in the news.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 10 2014, 11:40pm
Post #20 of 28
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I should go into a Catholic website and ask them about the mechanics of a suicide on a soul!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 11 2014, 12:00am
Post #21 of 28
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Well, if you can do that successfully, please let us know the answers you get!
(This post was edited by CuriousG on Apr 11 2014, 12:02am)
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Gimloid
The Shire
Apr 11 2014, 5:15pm
Post #22 of 28
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Welcome, Calardan, from another new member :)
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...the majority of the points made so far in this discussion aren't lending enough agency to Morgoth himself as being implicated in the suicides outright. What I'm getting at here is that the suicides (assuming they are sinful as purported in this thread and Tolkien's Catholicism) were direct machinations of Morgoth and his malevolent intentions. Be it a leap from a cliff, or a quasi-sentient sword to the gut, these suicidal acts were tantamount to demonic possession. Turin and company were clearly being controlled by the will of Morgoth (or Glaurung's spell) at the very least intermittently. I cannot accept that they would be judged in the eyes of Mandos as having really anything to do with their own deaths.
Certainly in my personal view Morgoth was just as responsible for those deaths as if he had turned up in person and pushed/stabbed them with his own hand. I'm afraid, though, that I can't be so confident that the spiritual authorities of Arda (I'll not name Mandos specifically, as we don't know if he had anything to do with the souls of Men or not) would have taken the same view. Morgoth was similarly responsible for the heinous acts committed by the Noldor in Aman; none of that would have happened if he had not spent so much effort subtly and systematically messing with their heads, yet even though the Valar had finally realised what he had been up to all that time, they still gave the Noldor all the blame and no sympathy, and took no action against Morgoth until Earendil had made his plea five hundred years later. I believe that the Christian God would certainly judge them as you suggest (though my belief is not of the Catholic flavour and I lack the knowledge to say whether Catholics would agree), but on Arda it's more complicated... I think they might be well advised to get a good advocate to represent them in court, as it were, but also (as I posted above) the offence may not be so serious under "Arda rules".
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Calardan
Registered User
Apr 11 2014, 5:47pm
Post #23 of 28
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Another take on it could be that...
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Perhaps suicide isn't really a problem so long as it happens to a man and not an elf (there is clearly a celestial inequity there). I wonder if suicide is just looked upon as one of the many ways you can meet your end on Middle-Earth; something you try to avoid at all costs. That is unless the scale of suffering is so great under the practically unassailable threat of Morgoth at the time justifies suicide in the same way fatalistic Eorlingas justify battle to bitter end despite certainty of failure. In some ways it seems that the Vala are more understanding when it comes to suicide what with their lack of clarity and dispassionate stance toward the demise of most of the Engwar.
I found a very interesting page about death in the Legendarium.http://valarguild.org/...h/DeathinTolkien.htm
Aiya Eärendil elenion ancalima!
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Gimloid
The Shire
Apr 11 2014, 6:05pm
Post #24 of 28
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I don't fully understand the mechanics of Morgoth's curse myself. How much free will was left to these people? Is it the sort of thing that if they crossed a street, they were doomed to kick someone just because they were walking?
Does the curse operate like a drug? People can be drugged (or drunk) and have impaired judgment that they have no control over. I'm never clear on if Morgoth's curse was external to them or had an internal control of them also.
More subtle than that, really...
They still had all their free will, and their judgement was not impaired in the manner that alcohol or other common drugs impair judgement. The problem was a combination (in differing proportions depending on the situation in question) of basing their judgement on bad information (sometimes situational, sometimes planted by Morgoth); not having any good options to choose; and an increasingly pessimistic and despairing mindset from the cumulative effects of their experiences. When Morgoth manipulated them directly it was not by attacking their free will or judgement, but by implanting false premises of one form or another on which they then freely based their unimpaired judgement. "Garbage in, garbage out", as the saying goes. More often he operated at further remove by manipulating the situation and events around them to set up circumstances under which they would choose to do something which seemed a good idea at the time and would not be revealed as a bad choice until its consequences became manifest often years later.
(Of course the situation changes somewhat when Glaurung comes on the scene, as he does make use of direct manipulation and in a grossly unsubtle manner.)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 11 2014, 9:08pm
Post #25 of 28
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and a belated welcome to you also, Gimloid!
You made me think of this scenario. I'm kidnapped and the bad people say that I must choose between shooting my wife or they will shoot her if I choose to do nothing. An observer could say, "Well, you still had free will in that situation, i.e., you could choose to do nothing," but all choices are fraught with ruin, and it seems analogous to Morgoth manipulating the situations that Turin and Nienor were in, where any choice they made "freely" would be calamitous. In that sense, their only freedom was to take their own lives and find a way outside of his curse. Which sounds pretty terrible (kids, don't try this at home), but suicide probably appeared to them as the last act of will left to them, and it also meant an end (especially to Turin) of hurting people around him. They don't call it tragedy for nothing.
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Welcome Gimloid!
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