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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 29 2014, 1:24am
Post #1 of 29
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Who's a Half-elven ?
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Yes, Elrond was called the “Half-elven”.
But the question is: Was Elrond mathematically 1/2 Elven? If not what percent Elf, Man, and/or Maiar was he?
This was easier to work out fractionally for me, but a percentage figure rather than a fraction might be easier for the readers to digest.
Yes, a triviality I know; but perhaps Riven Delve will give the (first) winner another plate of chocolate chip cookies for our “Supreme Geekiness”? (No guarantees as I haven’t checked her larders lately.)
Bear in mind (naturally) that each parent supplies 1/2 or 50% of its offspring’s Elvish-iness, Maiar-ness, or Manish-ness.
From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .
-Bilbo Baggins
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Meneldor
Valinor
Mar 29 2014, 2:25am
Post #2 of 29
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So you want to assume a Maiar in elven form counts as Maiar and not elf?
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 29 2014, 3:11am
Post #3 of 29
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I would consider a Maia in any form a Maia.
eg Gandalf sent to Middle-earth as a Man/Wizard is still a Maia in reality...
Naturally following the hereditary line we run across those with some Maiar blood, some with some Elvish blood etc.
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea
Mar 29 2014, 4:56am
Post #4 of 29
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Well, he's all-Elrond anyway....
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Well let's see.
The 50% he gets from his mother Elwing, consists of some Maia, Elf, and Man.
Of that 50%, one half is Elf (from maternal grandma Nimloth)
plus another one eighth Elf (from grandpa Dior) thus 62.5% Elf.
Also 25% Man, and 12.5% Maia (both of which are also from Dior).
So, for Elrond as a whole, that translates to one quarter plus one sixteenth Elf (31.25%), plus one eighth Man (12.5%) and one sixteenth Maia (6.25%).
The 50% he gets from his father, consists of some Elf (paternal grandma Idril) and some Man (grandpa Tuor), in equal parts.
Thus, for Elrond, he gets 25% Elf and 25% Man from his father Earendil's side.
So in Elrond, he inherits 25% Elf from father's side plus 31.25% from mother's side, total of 56.25% Elf in him.
He gets 25% Man from his father plus 12.5% from mother, thus 37.5% Man in him.
And the remaining 6.25% is Maia.
The breakdown:
56.25% (two quarters plus one sixteenth) Elf
37.5% (one quarter plus one eighth) Man
6.25% (one-sixteenth) Maia
__________
100% Elrond
Conclusion: No, he wasn't mathematically 1/2 Elven. He was 56.25% Elven.
I was never really much of a math fan. Funny how it's more enjoyable when its about Elves and stuff.
Thanks for this one Bracegirdle!
Things overheard during games of chess in Middle-earth:
Galadriel (any and every time she advances her pawn to the last row): "In its place you would have a QUEEN!!!!" (thunder booms)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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Lissuin
Valinor
Mar 29 2014, 9:24am
Post #5 of 29
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I'm not about to check your math - not being much of a math fan myself, and I'm sure somebody else around here will  - so I'll just be impressed. Now we know.
For those who prefer visuals:
The Elrond More-Than-Half-Elven Pie Chart
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 29 2014, 10:00am
Post #6 of 29
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Which, rather strangely, makes Arwen more "elvish" than her father!
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Elrond = 56.25% elf
Celebrian = 100% elf
Arwen = 78.13% elf (and roughly 3.13% Maia, 18.75% Man)
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kiwifan
Rohan
Mar 29 2014, 1:47pm
Post #7 of 29
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So that makes the children of Arwen and Aragorn less than half elvish?//
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'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 29 2014, 2:01pm
Post #8 of 29
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My virtual cookies are easier to digest than even a percentage, I promise! 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Mar 29 2014, 2:04pm)
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea
Mar 29 2014, 2:28pm
Post #9 of 29
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(in best Billy Crystal-as-Harry-as-some-nasal-alliterative-guy-and-btw-who-was-he-supposed-to-be-anyway-voice:) I would be pleased to partake of your percents pie!
Thanks Liss! 
Things overheard during games of chess in Middle-earth:
Galadriel (any and every time she advances her pawn to the last row): "In its place you would have a QUEEN!!!!" (thunder booms)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 29 2014, 2:28pm
Post #10 of 29
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"COOKIES FOR ALL" SAYS RIVEN_DELVE
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Rux, I think you’re a much better mathematician than I, even though I found your mathematics a tad hard to follow, but it’s the results that count is it not?
I arrived at 56.25% Elven using the following hereditary succession:
Using “E” for Elf, “M” for Man, and “A” for Ainur (Maiar).
Example: EEAAAM would be 2 parts Elf, 3 parts Ainur, 1 part Man; Or simpler, E2, A3, M.
Thingol (E) + Melian (A) = (Luthien (EA) = 50% Elf, 50% Ainur).
Luthien (EA) + Beren (MM) = (Dior (EAMM) = 25% Elf, 25% Ainur, 50% Man).
Dior (EAMM) + Nimloth (EEEE) = (Elwing (E5, A, M2) = 62.5% Elf, 12.5% Ainur, 25.0% Man).
Elwing (E5, A1, M2)+ Earendil (E4, M4) = Elrond (E9, A1, M6) = 56.25% Elf, 6.25% Ainur, 37.50% Man. Slightly over 1/2 Elven but, yes, still semantics-wise a Half-elven and Elrond is still “all-Elrond”. . .
One step further:
Elrond (E9, A1, M6) + Celebrian (E16) = (Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir (E25, A1, M6) = 78.125% Elf, 3.125% Ainur, 18.750% Man).
As we can see the Elvish blood rises significantly in Arwen, but Aragorn is a direct descendant of Elros and after some 60 generations could we not say that the Elvish & Maiar blood is virtually non-existent in Aragorn?
So, kiwifan, yes Aragorn & Arwen’s children would be less than ½ Elven.
I also found it interesting than Arwen was 22% more Elvish than Elrond.
Interesting also is that the Maiar bloodline halves in every generation.
Lissuin, thanks for the pie chart… Cool
Riven Delve, thanks for the batch of cookies. I wasn’t sure if you had enough dough left.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 29 2014, 2:37pm
Post #11 of 29
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Exactly how much am I getting paid for this? 
I figured you all worked up a thirst too--you deserve some nice, cold milk to go with them!
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea
Mar 29 2014, 2:38pm
Post #12 of 29
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I don't know if I'm a better mathematician than you, or anybody (it was never my thing in school), but I'm glad (relieved) to see my result verified by your calculations.
I found this thread 100% illuminating! Thanks Bracegirdle!
Things overheard during games of chess in Middle-earth:
Galadriel (any and every time she advances her pawn to the last row): "In its place you would have a QUEEN!!!!" (thunder booms)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 29 2014, 2:46pm
Post #14 of 29
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Guess I shoulda said "Chocolate Chips"
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And you bring up the most important part of this thread:
Who can eat a batch of chocolate cookies without a little moo to wash them down.
Not I !! Thanks for the milk.... whew 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 29 2014, 10:52pm
Post #15 of 29
(1097 views)
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But consider yourself battered!
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 30 2014, 3:21am
Post #16 of 29
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I have been sooo battered on this forum, with nary a cookie to show for it!
From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .
-Bilbo Baggins
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L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens
Mar 31 2014, 6:16pm
Post #17 of 29
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One of you must compute this.//
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What business does a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, and a hobbit have in the Rivenmark?
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L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens
Mar 31 2014, 6:19pm
Post #18 of 29
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Eldarion Threeeighthselven, son of Arwen Threequarterselven.//
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What business does a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, a dwarf, and a hobbit have in the Rivenmark?
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 31 2014, 7:38pm
Post #20 of 29
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“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 31 2014, 7:51pm
Post #21 of 29
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...it's time to batter up!
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 31 2014, 7:53pm
Post #22 of 29
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Is this thread going to get chippy? //
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“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 31 2014, 8:06pm
Post #23 of 29
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Its already gone from soup to nuts. //
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'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 31 2014, 8:14pm
Post #24 of 29
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I thought it was about bisque-its. //
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“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 31 2014, 8:19pm
Post #25 of 29
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Put a fork in me; I'm done! //
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'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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