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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Fear of Smaugs presence in bo5a!

boldog
Rohan


Mar 13 2014, 8:54am

Post #1 of 19 (929 views)
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Fear of Smaugs presence in bo5a! Can't Post

I have just gone into a huge panic, after reading Thaddeus' post below me. In it, he mentions that in the DOS chronicles, it is mentioned by thrain that Sauron is trying to enlist Smaug to his cause.
This is nothing new, as we have gained hints of this throughout the two films so far. Gandalf mentions in the white council, that Smaug could be deadly if he joins with the enemy. Then Narzugs prophecy of "flames of war are upon you". This could have meant anything, but when Smaugs theme is heard in the background, we know what he was talking about. Im sure that there are other hints, but i cant think of them all.

Now, If they are building this possible alliance up throughout two films, wouldnt it seem really anti climatic, if Smaug was killed in laketown? Before any alliance can be made? Im praying that that is the case, but you never know with pj.......

The troubling thing that makes me think he may be in the BO5A is of a description i read a few months ago on Bard. I forget where I read it, and dont remember the exact statement but ill never forget it mentioned something like this. "In the Bo5a, Bards arrows, will determine the fate of middle earth." It was much more clearer then that, but i swear it had somehting like this.

Now What is more Fate determining then what Bard is famous for? SMAUGS DEMISE OF COURSE! I dont see how killing a few orcs in the war will determine the fate of middle earth. This is what has lead me to believe that Smaug may be present in Bo5a. All the Build up of the alliance, and then hearing this on Bard. It gives me the creepsMad

I, and im sure probably everyone else on TORN, does not want to see Smaug survive laketown! Here are two quick reasons.
1. It gives nothing for Bard to be leader of the men of laketwon. Without the dragon killed, and nothing for Bard to have honor for, why would they follow him?
2. It takes time from our other villains! We have three more main antagonists to get through, and having Smaug alive still, will make it a huge mess. Plus, if he is at bo5a, it will greatly reduce Azog and Bolgs presence (which is a big no no for me Wink)

So anyway, what are your thoughts? There has always been these rumours of Smaug surviving, lets just pray that they stay as that RUMOURS!

"And do you really think, Thorin Oakenshield, that Bolg will have the slightest symphony for you? After he watched you hack his fathers hand off, so ruthlessly in Moria. Azogs defeat has brought nothing to you, only refuelled hate of his kin, upon yours"


Bernhardina
Rohan


Mar 13 2014, 10:43am

Post #2 of 19 (573 views)
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Smaug will die and here's why [In reply to] Can't Post

The reasons you point out are valid IMO and I can see PJ keeping Smaug alive for a bit longer than, for example, Saruman in the beginning of ROTK. However, as you say, Smaug has to die in order for Bo5A to happen, really, it has to do with Bards storyline and the build up. So it is unlikely that Smaug survives Laketown. He won't make it to the battle. I am very curious though if PJ will have Smaugs death drawn out in a very dramatic way, have more dialouge for him etc.


There's a risk that PJ feels that without Smaug the movie will feel less exciting. Kill off the most amazing dragon ever put on screen within the first twenty minutes? That's so not gonna happen! So either the Laketown sequence will go on for a while with cuts to other stuff happening, like Thranduil-stuff, Dain-stuff or Gandalf-stuff (I wouldn't be surprised if Dol Guldur takes up most part of the first act really) or PJ will have to keep the dragon alive and make Bard kill him after he has destroyed Laketown, perhaps in a PJ-original way.


But I doubt he dies during the battle. It has to be before the battle. It HAS to be Crazy



Angharad73
Rohan


Mar 13 2014, 11:07am

Post #3 of 19 (458 views)
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I'd say... [In reply to] Can't Post

...it shouldn't be too difficult to dramatically draw out Smaug's attack on Laketown. Last we saw, Bard was imprisoned, so we have to see how he gets out, gets back to his son, who had the black arrow, and then makes his way up to that 'black arrow shooting thing' (the proper name of which escapes me at the moment). All the while, there is the dragon overhead, setting the town on fire. So, that's one possible plot line. Then there are the four Dwarves, plus Bard's girls, I suppose, who also are still in Laketown. So we have to see how they are doing during the attack. That's plot line 2. And then there could be a cut or two to the Dwarves and Bilbo in Erebor, wondering and worrying, so there's another bit of plot there, too. Which means, the attack on Laketown will take up a good bit of screen time.

But I totally agree that Smaug has to die in the attack on Laketown. Otherwise, how could be explained why Bard and Thranduil both march towards Erebor? I don't think they would dare to do that unless the dragon was dead. Besides, if Smaug is to be killed with the black arrow, it has to happen in Laketown. That 'black arrow shooting thing' (the proper name of which still eludes me) does not look very portable, and we haven't seen any other of its kind. Introducing it as it was, and then not using it wouldn't make much sense.


Thaddeus
Bree


Mar 13 2014, 2:46pm

Post #4 of 19 (366 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

Everything points to Smaug dying at Lake-town. What's worrying, though, is that the scriptwriters have made a big deal about the Necromancer bringing crap back from the dead, without having really used him yet. Would be the worst thing ever if Smaug was resurrected for Bot5A.

I like cheese!


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 13 2014, 3:21pm

Post #5 of 19 (368 views)
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I wouldn't worry too much. [In reply to] Can't Post

The possibility of Sauron allying with Smaug was a major theme of Tolkien's essay "The Quest of Erebor," which Peter Jackson has referenced through the short version found in Appendix A of LotR. In Tolkien's The Hobbit, the Council's attack on Dol Guldur ruined any immediate chance of such an alliance while Smaug's death at Lake-town eliminated the possibility forever.

In the films, the two events are taking place much closer together, but I don't think that this makes any difference. Smaug will still be dead before the Battle of Five Armies.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


FoFo64
Rivendell


Mar 13 2014, 3:29pm

Post #6 of 19 (352 views)
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We shouldn't have to worry about that... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Necromancer idea was already used in terms of bringing the Nazgul back into their undead/wraith-like state versus being...dead/immobile?

I have 100% no fear of an undead Smaug appearing. But an almost certain belief that we'll see the return of the Nazgul at Dol Goldur. Which by the way, I wonder what they'll look like? Will they retain their cloaked appearance from LOTR or will they be unmasked and spectral like in AUJ?

'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Mar 13 2014, 8:28pm

Post #7 of 19 (287 views)
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Regarding Sauron "bringing crap back from the dead"... [In reply to] Can't Post

...they didn't exactly say that. What was said that the Woodmen spoke of a "Necromancer who can summon the dead". I took that phrase to mean that Sauron had summoned the Nazgul, not that Sauron was bringing creatures back from the dead.

Of course, it ain't over 'til it's over, so who knows what kind of canon-defying silliness Jackson's got in store for this film. I totally agree with you that keeping Smaug alive for the Bo5A would be a terrible decision, and having Sauron resurrect him would be even worse.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Mar 13 2014, 8:29pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 13 2014, 9:00pm

Post #8 of 19 (267 views)
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Necromancy [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...they didn't exactly say that. What was said that the Woodmen spoke of a "Necromancer who can summon the dead". I took that phrase to mean that Sauron had summoned the Nazgul, not that Sauron was bringing creatures back from the dead.



Necromancy would also include summoning and commanding Wights, spirits, ghosts and lesser Wraiths. No need for zombies or dracoliches.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Mar 13 2014, 9:44pm

Post #9 of 19 (247 views)
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I doubt we are going to see Wights... [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe, but I have a feeling that the "dead" that Gandalf referred to the Woodsmen talking about were meant to be the Nazgul, not PJ-relocated Barrow-wights.

Anyway, I know that necromancy encompasses more than just bringing the dead back to life, but I was replying to a previous comment wherein the poster mentioned that PJ was playing up the idea of Sauron bringing creatures back to life.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 13 2014, 10:00pm

Post #10 of 19 (232 views)
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No. Probably no Wights at the BoFA [In reply to] Can't Post

We might see some at Dol Guldur though; I can imagine Sauron using them to guard and torment his prisoners. Truthfully, I've just always resented that Jackson didn't give us any in FotR. There has been a remarkable lack of curiousity about the probable existence of lesser Wraiths (including Woodmen killed with morgul-knives?), possibly commanded by the Nazgul.

I didn't mean to disparage your knowledge of necromancy; my comment was intended to add to the discussion, nothing more.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Mar 13 2014, 10:15pm

Post #11 of 19 (232 views)
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Oh, believe me... [In reply to] Can't Post

I remain a little peeved over the omission of the Barrow-wights in LotR as well (their inclusion didn't have to hinge on Bombadil's, as I've seen some suggest).

But I just doubt we are going to see any, either at the Bo5A OR Dol Guldur. Dol Guldur is likely going to include plenty of Wargs and Orcs (and maybe some bats and spiders), and then there's Sauron and the as-yet-unseen Nazgul. Seems like enough to work with in my opinion, especially since Dol Guldur is really only a secondary plot. Personally, I think PJ is going to focus heavily on the Nazgul (not least because he obviously loves hearkening back to his own LotR films).

And no offense taken Smile


SafeUnderHill
Rohan

Mar 13 2014, 10:44pm

Post #12 of 19 (261 views)
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Look for the What to look forward to in TABA video on YouTube with the cast. [In reply to] Can't Post

Benedict's cumberbatch's states that something pretty major happens at the tail of the movie(I think it means the very start). So no I don't think he'll be in the BOTFA.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 14 2014, 2:05pm

Post #13 of 19 (171 views)
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Tail? [In reply to] Can't Post

Odd; I would think that tail would refer to the climax or epilogue of the film. Can anyone clarify?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Mar 14 2014, 2:45pm

Post #14 of 19 (155 views)
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After - [In reply to] Can't Post

 - the Battle of the Barrels and the Encounter at Erebor, I suspect that PJ and Co may portray movie Smaug as a Dragon that takes more than a arrow to kill.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a crazed Smaug attacking everyone at BO5A after an involuntary underwater nap.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Mar 14 2014, 3:07pm

Post #15 of 19 (165 views)
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Top not tail. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the link to the video. It'll start right at the beginning of BC's part.
http://youtu.be/lG8O7e2jHTM?t=3m8s
BC says "The top of the film might be kind of a big deal...for my character at least."

I'm positive he's saying top not tail, so I think he means the beginning of the film.

"So fare thee well, my own true love
I'll think of you night and day
A place in my mind, you will surely find
Although I am so far away
And when I'm alone, far away from home
I'll think of the good times once more
Until I can make it back someday here
To Paddy's green shamrock shore"
--The High Kings


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 14 2014, 3:10pm

Post #16 of 19 (163 views)
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That would make a lot more sense [In reply to] Can't Post

And it could apply to either (or both) Smaug or Sauron.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 14 2014, 6:00pm

Post #17 of 19 (143 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Tail" refers to the blank leader at the end of a reel, sometimes also called a "foot". "Head" refers to the blank leader at the start of a reel. Blank leaders are used since most of the damage reels receive is commonly either to the start or the end of the reel, so if damage is going to happen, better a blank leader rather than the film itself. Being a three hour film TABA would consist of about 8-9 reels, so it would have 8-9 "tails", except of course nowadays movies are shown in Digital Cinema Packages rather than reels, and anyways I see the question is answered in much better fashion by Eruvandi so never mind.

(BTW, if the film has been rewound onto a core rather than a reel and placed in long-term storage the terms are usually reversed.)

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.




(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 14 2014, 6:10pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Mar 14 2014, 10:15pm

Post #18 of 19 (109 views)
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Jackson would have to be mad to do something like this... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a crazed Smaug attacking everyone at BO5A after an involuntary underwater nap.


But then again, I never thought we'd be seeing Azog alive and chasing Thorin around, or Kili swooning over a female Elf either...


SafeUnderHill
Rohan

Mar 15 2014, 2:15pm

Post #19 of 19 (73 views)
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Just checked [In reply to] Can't Post

He says

"The top of the film might be kind of a big deal"

Sorry my mistake

 
 

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