Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Shadowfax
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

trqn13
Bree


Feb 28 2014, 5:49pm

Post #1 of 30 (771 views)
Shortcut
Shadowfax Can't Post

Hey guys, don't currently have the books anywhere near me, but am looking for the passage (believe the chapter is 'the white rider') where Gandalf promises Shadowfax that they "will not be parted again in this world" hence taking Shadowfax with him to the west. Any help?

Cheers

"Give me your name, Horse Master, and I shall give you mine"


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 28 2014, 6:34pm

Post #2 of 30 (607 views)
Shortcut
are you looking for the book passage? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're in the Movie forum so I'm not sure.

The book passage is in "The White Rider":
Gandalf caressed him. ‘It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend,’ he said; ‘but you are wise and swift and come at need. Far let us ride now together, and part not in this world again!’


If you're looking for something else, perhaps more details on what you want.

Wikipedia is citing two other sources for info on the fate of Shadowfax:

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1992), Christopher Tolkien, ed., Sauron Defeated, Boston, New York, & London: Houghton Mifflin, p. 123, ISBN 0-395-60649-7

Carpenter, Humphrey, ed. (1981), The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, Letter #268, ISBN 0-395-31555-7


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Elthir
Gondor

Feb 28 2014, 7:49pm

Post #3 of 30 (603 views)
Shortcut
another mention [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually I'm not sure if you want anything besides the passage already provided by Magpie, but I can add that the two references noted by Magpie are 1) a statement from Tolkien in the [abandoned] Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings [well one version of it] that Shadowfax passed Over Sea with Gandalf...

... dropped because the Epilogue was dropped of course...

... and 2) a letter in which Tolkien basically explains the same thing to someone.

And if I recall correctly, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien aded a reference to a 'grey' horse, with Gandalf, at the Grey Havens.

Shadowfax of course!


trqn13
Bree


Mar 1 2014, 2:06pm

Post #4 of 30 (568 views)
Shortcut
movie horses [In reply to] Can't Post

Why did PJ make Shadowfax the only horse given the time of day in the movies? Snowmane, Roheryn.

Surely Theodred also rode one of the Mearas, was his horse ever named?

"Give me your name, Horse Master, and I shall give you mine"


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 1 2014, 4:17pm

Post #5 of 30 (555 views)
Shortcut
I think it's hard to make horses stars [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to get them to be consistent in their ability to take direction and, really... only horse lovers pay that much attention to horses on the periphery (by that, I mean horses that aren't the star of the movie like Black Beauty or Hildalgo). There were already a lot of names for the casual viewer to keep track of.

It's always easy for fans to advocate for the appearance or mention of their one favorite. But if all fans were to be appeased we would have easily had another dozen or so characters to keep track of. (I would advocate for Imrahil before Snowmane! lol)

The name Snowmane was not mentioned in the movies. But I would suggest that Brego gets some 'time of day' in the movies.

Were the replies you got to your original questions the answers you were seeking?


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Mar 1 2014, 4:18pm)


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Mar 1 2014, 7:36pm

Post #6 of 30 (535 views)
Shortcut
Wasn't Snowmane the name of Theoden's horse? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know that it was ever directly stated that Snowmane was one of the mearas, but it's implied. Snowmane certainly seems to react at at least one point in TTT to Shadowfax as if they were kin.

(What is the singular of 'mearas'? 'Meah'? Old English is something I've wanted to learn but which I still know approximately 0% about.)

Even though horses like Firefoot and Windfola were never mentioned, a lot of fan-run wikis still identify the horses in the movies with the appropriate names.

Asfaloth was mentioned, come to think of it, although few people would probably recognize the name in the string of Elvish unless they knew what to listen for. I like to imagine that Glorfindel was pretty upset that Arwen took his horse... Laugh

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


FrogmortonJustice65
Rivendell


Mar 1 2014, 9:53pm

Post #7 of 30 (532 views)
Shortcut
this criticism isn't totally fair. [In reply to] Can't Post

Somebody already mentioned Brego. And don't forget Bill the Pony!

 photo cbccab4e-f61e-4be5-aaa1-20e302430c7c.jpg

(This post was edited by FrogmortonJustice65 on Mar 1 2014, 9:53pm)


elaen32
Gondor


Mar 2 2014, 12:19am

Post #8 of 30 (515 views)
Shortcut
Yes and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hasufel, Arod and Asfaloth are all name-checked too


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!



Elthir
Gondor

Mar 2 2014, 3:15pm

Post #9 of 30 (505 views)
Shortcut
I think the singular is... [In reply to] Can't Post

... mearh.

Related [not sure if marh or marhs hails from a language related to Old English] 'Horse names' Marhwini and Marcho appear in the book too, for examples. And of course we have Old English eoh [Eowyn and so on].

I am no expert in any languages by the way, but I think that much is correct.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Mar 2 2014, 3:23pm)


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 3 2014, 7:13pm

Post #10 of 30 (490 views)
Shortcut
Shadowfax [In reply to] Can't Post

Tokien mentions in "LETTERS" that he 'thought' that surely Gandalf would have taken Shadowfax on The Straight Road (oversea) with him. But leaves it obtuse. (There is no mention in any of the volumes of -The Lord of the Rings- that I have seen of a concrete answer here.)


Elthir
Gondor

Mar 3 2014, 11:20pm

Post #11 of 30 (490 views)
Shortcut
Granted JRRT says 'I think' [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf [across the Sea], though this is not stated... I should argue so: Shadowfax came of a special race (II 126, 129, III346) being as it were an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses: his 'blood' came from 'West over Sea'. It would not be unfitting for him to 'go West'. (...) He would take or could take what he loved. Gandalf was last seen riding Shadowfax (III 276).


He must have ridden to the Havens, and it is inconceivable that he would [have] ridden any beast but Shadowfax; so Shadowfax must have been there. A chronicler winding up a long tale, and for the moment moved principally by the sorrow of those left behind (himself among them!) might omit mention of the horse; but had the great horse also shared in the grief of sundering, he could hardly have been forgotten."




Of course Shadowfax wasn't 'forgotten' for the Second Edition*, but in my opinion the mere mention of Shadowfax being there is not to illustrate this grief, but to provide proof that Shadowfax was there and so passed Over Sea [*Tolkien added a mention of a great 'grey' horse at the Havens for the Second Edition].

Well, I suppose one could argue that Shadowfax being there doesn't necessarily mean he boarded the Ship with Gandalf, and so with respect to only author-published material we don't have a concrete answer.

Still Wink I'll put it this way...

... in my opinion, considering his letter, Tolkien appears to think the question arises from the lack of mention of riding Shadowfax at the end, and so a mention will essentially provide enough of a suggestion for what Tolkien thinks happened, even if not specifically stated.

And not that you said otherwise but the idea was originally intended to be in The Lord of the Rings, being written in the Epilogue, but Tolkien was talked out of keeping an Epilogue.


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 4 2014, 1:35am

Post #12 of 30 (486 views)
Shortcut
Noro Lim! Asfaloth ! [In reply to] Can't Post

Eithir, yes, we all agree, you, I, and Tolkien that Gandalf took Shadowfax with him. And it's because of various such exclusions in the corpus that we may have these many such friendly discussions.

I wonder if Glorfindel took Asfaloth with him. Although Asfaloth was probably not a Meara he was certainly of good stock as he was able to outrun the Nine steeds of the Black Riders?

Happy Ringing Blush


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 11 2014, 9:13pm

Post #13 of 30 (438 views)
Shortcut
Fiar is as Fair does-- Forest Gump [In reply to] Can't Post

 And don't forget Bill the Pony!
----------------------------------------------------
Or Sharp-ears, Wise-nose, Swish-tail, Bumpkin, White-socks, and Fatty Lumpkin. Smile

From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .

-Bilbo Baggins


Elthir
Gondor

Mar 15 2014, 3:57pm

Post #14 of 30 (425 views)
Shortcut
a grey area [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way Shadowfax should be 'grey'...

... but the film version looks white to me Tongue

It's the White Rider. The word you can't easily se there is 'Rider', but I made it white for emphasis Crazy


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 15 2014, 7:16pm

Post #15 of 30 (430 views)
Shortcut
Maybe a light grey, huh? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
By the way Shadowfax should be 'grey'...
... but the film version looks white to me


Does he not shine like silver, . .
Gandalf at the meeting with the Three Hunters.

By day his coat glistened like silver; and by night it is like a shade, and he passes unseen.
G. at the Council of Elrond.

Maybe Jackson's not too far off here, using white; how to use "shine like silver" in the movie. Sparklies a little hokie. You just CAN'T put some of Tolkien's words on the screen! Here a picture is NOT worth a 1,000 words, eh? Laugh

From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .

-Bilbo Baggins


Elthir
Gondor

Mar 16 2014, 4:15pm

Post #16 of 30 (386 views)
Shortcut
even a light grey isn't white... [In reply to] Can't Post

... so maybe you can put Tolkien's words on screen.

Plus there's cgi Tongue


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 16 2014, 5:41pm

Post #17 of 30 (381 views)
Shortcut
WhiteFax or GreyFax ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
... so maybe you can put Tolkien's words on screen.


“Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: . . . “.

In my humble opinion these most descriptive words could NOT be put on film.

Yes, nowhere is Shadowfax's coat described as "white", just "glistening silver" or "shines like silver", and by night it is "like a shade". I have in my grubby little hands a 4 oz. bar of shining silver. If I had to choose between white or grey I would have to go with white, although it's not white or grey.

But there is the strange sentence that tells us that Gandalf is riding a "tall grey horse" in Homeward Bound. This has always created a conundrum for me - First it is evening and Shadowfax's "silverness" could appear grey "like a shade". Second with Tolkien's strict faithfulness to accuracy why O why would he not use the name "Shadowfax" instead of a "tall grey horse".

Even though Gandalf states that "we shall not be parted again in this world" could it be that Gandalf and Shadowfax decided to part briefly and Shadowfax remained in Rohan to attend his "last minute" duties as chief of the Mearas, and Gandalf contnued (in comparative safety) the Homeward Bound journey on a "tall grey horse".

Certainly, I'm on shaky ground here as the name "Shadowfax" indicates a shadowy (greyish) appearance.

Cheers

From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .

-Bilbo Baggins


Elthir
Gondor

Mar 16 2014, 7:42pm

Post #18 of 30 (364 views)
Shortcut
this 5 minute edit business... [In reply to] Can't Post

... sometimes 'burns my toast' Wink I really meant Tolkien's description here, with respect to the horsey, could be put on film.

Anyway, in Nomenclature Tolkien describes Shadowfax: 'Sceadu-faex 'having shadow-grey mane (and coat)' Shadowfax is also simply referred to as grey in the last chapter of The Lord of the Rings, the White Havens [or something like that]. And I think in draft texts he was even 'Greyfax' at one point? I'm pretty sure but am too lazy to look it up.

I think his 'silver-ness' [as yes there are a number of these too] comes in when he sweats, for example, his grey coat glistening, or when Tolkien wants to be a little more poetic, or thinks the word silver works better in a given sentence, like possibly: 'At that moment he caught a flash of white and silver coming from the North, ...'

from The Siege of Gondor


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 16 2014, 9:15pm

Post #19 of 30 (363 views)
Shortcut
Five, Four, Three, Two...... Burnt Toast (color- greyish-brownish) [In reply to] Can't Post

I know you're being facetious about the last chapter.
But the name "Shadowfax" doesn't appear in "The Grey Havens".

If this keeps up I'll have to invest in a Fax machine. A nice GREY one, or maybe a GRAY one. TongueShocked


Elthir
Gondor

Mar 17 2014, 1:55am

Post #20 of 30 (413 views)
Shortcut
not the name... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but Tolkien added a reference to a grey horse in The Grey Havens, with Gandalf. Are you suggesting that this is not Shadowfax, elsewhere described as having shadow-grey mane and coat?

It would at least be a new argument, if so, but I hope you don't expect to sell it very often Wink


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 19 2014, 8:53pm

Post #21 of 30 (339 views)
Shortcut
Hey! Get yer Shadowfax's here! [In reply to] Can't Post

. but Tolkien added a reference to a grey horse in The Grey Havens, with Gandalf. Are you suggesting that this is not Shadowfax, elsewhere described as having shadow-grey mane and coat?
It would at least be a new argument, if so, but I hope you don't expect to sell it very often
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nay, not trying to sell anything. Just some thoughts.
Shadowfax is usually described as "shining like silver" or glistening like silver".

And if you reread my post above I did mention the grey horse (remember it was evening) in Homeward Bound, and on second blush this WAS Shadowfax, as he is ‘named’ toward the end of that chapter. There is no mention of Gandalf’s horse in any manner in The Grey Havens

Sooo, we’re back to just semantics. I picture Shadowfax as more silver; you picture him as more grey. That’s what makes a horse-race… eh? [;]
Cheers.

From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar .
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star . . .

-Bilbo Baggins


Elthir
Gondor

Mar 20 2014, 12:39am

Post #22 of 30 (331 views)
Shortcut
Grey things [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I don't know if I'm picturing Shadowfax as more grey or more silver than you picture him, I just think a horse with a grey coat will shine like silver when it is sweating, or in a certain light for example. Or the word can be employed for more poetic reasons.

Anyway taking the smile and wink out of my 'selling' comment makes it look less fun Cool

Anyway again, when you say...


Quote
... as he is 'named' toward the end of that chapter. There is no mention of Gandalf’s horse in any manner in The Grey Havens



... but isn't describing the grey horse with Gandalf [in this chapter] a manner of a mention? Unless you mean his name doesn't appear in this chapter, okay, but then I'm just puzzled at the point being made here, if so.


Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 20 2014, 3:28am

Post #23 of 30 (325 views)
Shortcut
Silver, White, and Tall Grey things [In reply to] Can't Post

  
Sorry, I accidentally took your smile/wink out of your comment. Apologies.

It's very easy to misread people on these posts. Or it's very easy for ME to be unclear.
I meant the sentence with "the tall grey horse" was in Homeward Bound, and the name "Shadowfax was at the end of THAT chapter. So the "tall grey horse" IS Shadowfax.

But, there is no mention in the last two chapters Scouring & Grey Havens of Shadowfax or any horse ridden by Gandalf.

Should we agree to disagree on what 'color' our 'mind's eye' sees.CoolSmile

(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Mar 20 2014, 3:28am)


Elthir
Gondor

Mar 20 2014, 2:17pm

Post #24 of 30 (341 views)
Shortcut
disclearity [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Sorry, I accidentally took your smile/wink out of your comment. Apologies. It's very easy to misread people on these posts. Or it's very easy for ME to be unclear. I meant the sentence with "the tall grey horse" was in Homeward Bound, and the name "Shadowfax was at the end of THAT chapter. So the "tall grey horse" IS Shadowfax.



Well it's not a race, but few can best me at being unclear Cool

Okay, so first you appear to be saying that Shadowfax is confirmed in Homeward Bound, by name, this tall grey horsey. But...


Quote
But, there is no mention in the last two chapters Scouring & Grey Havens of Shadowfax or any horse ridden by Gandalf.



... next you basically say 'But not in The Grey Havens', so... [me trying to figure out the meaning here] do you mean that we don't know if this is necessarily Shadowfax?

'The Cirdan led them to the Havens, and there was a white ship lying, and upon the quay beside a great grey horse stood a figure robed all in white awaiting them. As he trurned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire.' JRRT The Grey Havens, The Return of the King , second edition

I would say that Tolkien doesn't need the name Shadowfax here, as he knows the reader will easily, and naturally, assume this great grey horse beside Gandalf is Shadowfax. And if you are raising the idea that maybe this isn't Shadowfax, as he isn't named here, as a thought for consideration, then I apologize in potential in that I would have to consider it for but a moment, and roll my eyes in the next moment, in Sheldon Cooper fashion perhaps [Big Bang Theory reference]...

... if you are doing this, that is.



Quote
Should we agree to disagree on what 'color' our 'mind's eye' sees.



By the way I took out your smilies here so you would feel better about taking out mine earlier. And I think we should agree to agree: Shadowfax was of 'shadow-grey mane and coat' who could shine like silver in certain lights or situations.

I mean to me that seems a common enough ground... ahem, if tilted toward my choice of expression Wink



Bracegirdle
Tol Eressea


Mar 20 2014, 6:02pm

Post #25 of 30 (291 views)
Shortcut
Well, Color me Cheap! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hip and Hooray! I've figured out part of our misunderstanding!! Iv'e got an old 1984 Ballantine pb edition which says:

Quote
'Then Cirdan led them to the Havens, and there was a white ship lying, and upon the quay stood a figure robed all in white awaiting them. As he trurned and came towards them Frodo saw that it was Gandalf'; and on his hand he wore the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire.'


No mention of any horse atall. So color me cheap for not having the updated version! I certainly like your (revised?) edition of The Grey Havens much better than mine, and will not question that the "great grey horse" IS INDEED Shadowfax! (Could we both be winners in THIS horsey-Race? Please!) Smile
And I trust your rolling eyes will now return to a symmetrically centered location.

So now we're even in the smiley removal dept. eh?
------------------------------------------------
I mean to me that seems a common enough ground... ahem, if tilted toward my choice of expression Wink
Wink in...
-----------------------------------------------------

I shall bow to your discretion: He's WHITE, SILVER WHITE I SAY-- (All seriousness aside.)

And the Vegas line has Asfaloth at 8-to-5 against Fatty Lumpkin in the coming 8 furlong.

(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Mar 20 2014, 6:02pm)

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.