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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Splicing the segregated dwarves
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Mar 6 2014, 5:02am

Post #1 of 40 (973 views)
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Splicing the segregated dwarves Can't Post

That is a prime concern for me for film 3.

So far, the splitting of the dwarves hasn't been any more useful besides giving Legolas, Tauriel and Kili more screentime and that dreaded healing scene.

As you guys would know PJ's methods better, I ask, how do you think the 13 dwarves will be united in the film?
Would they join each other before before BOFA or during it? ( I am asking, because PJ loves to create faux-drama in such situations) How would they play that out in connection with the bigger plot?

This has to be the last straw. If I do not see the dwarves together before BOFA, I am considering walking out of the film.


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 6 2014, 7:27am

Post #2 of 40 (585 views)
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Well, I'm betting that the most useful thing it will give us is still to come... [In reply to] Can't Post

They've deliberately placed characters we know in Laketown. This creates all sorts of dramatic possibilities, both in showing events there, and in showing the reaction of the dwarves in the Mountain.

The journey of the four dwarves to the Mountain has been filmed, it was mentioned in an article. So perhaps everyone in the Mountain will have given them up for dead, and Thorin will be echoing Bilbo's 'what have we done' and then..... I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss this as 'faux-drama' myself. Drama in real life is often born out of near misses/ misread situations. That's why we respond to it on film.

Possible, of course, that Peter Jackson may change things, but the intention to reunite the dwarves was certainly there. May I suggest that you don't plan your dramatic exit just yet? Give it a chance.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 6 2014, 8:25am

Post #3 of 40 (552 views)
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It also makes it likely [In reply to] Can't Post

that the four will bring Thorin the news of the coming siege.

They'll see the destruction of Laketown, the arrival of the Elves and the beginnings of their alliance with the Lakemen, and hear of their intention to head up and loot the Mountain. They'll either sneak out one night or be blamed as representative dwarves for the dragon's arrival and be kicked out. They'll then head off to the Mountain themselves to see what's happened to Thorin and to claim the treasure for the dwarves themselves if he's dead. After all, if Thorin is dead Fili has been named as heir apparent and it would be his treasure and his kingdom. So they'll arrive and after a brief happy reunion tell Thorin the bad news that there are armies on the way.

This also does away with the need for a talking thrush entirely, I think. It already doesn't need to talk to Bard because he knows about Smaug's missing scale, and now it doesn't need to bring news of Smaug's death. And I'm betting that they'll find a way to avoid talking ravens too, and have Dain arrive for another reason, or even on his own volition. We've gotten talking dragon and talking spiders (apparently via the Ring), which were necessary, but they may just avoid talking birds the way they avoided Beorn's animals waiting at table.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Mar 6 2014, 9:10am

Post #4 of 40 (504 views)
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Well, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope it has a pay off in film 3, since the split in itself (resulting in the Lake-town sillines) almost brought down the ending of DOS.

And I did say, I would exit the cinema only if the dwarves unite AFTER BOFA starts. As it would be wrong on many different levels.


(This post was edited by Smeagol Bagginsess on Mar 6 2014, 9:16am)


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Mar 6 2014, 9:16am

Post #5 of 40 (515 views)
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That is a fair scenario [In reply to] Can't Post

and would be alright if PJ follows that.

I do wonder how would they have Dain arrive?
I just wish they do not follow the age-old idea of Dain having a change of heart and thus arrive in penitence. It would make the "they will not come" line pointless and - as I said - appear as faux-drama.
UNLESS it is well done, cliches can work very well if done cleverly.
So far, the cliches haven't worked (for me of course).


Bombadil
Half-elven


Mar 6 2014, 9:58am

Post #6 of 40 (522 views)
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Bomby had a ...co-worker [In reply to] Can't Post

Walk Out
When Old Forest chapter wasn't in FOTR

Stomped OUT when they
jus' got to Bree?

Refused to see ANY more
OF PJ's
Adaptions

until ROTK won Eyerything
in 2004...

Too Bad for Him?

Came up to Bomby
& Shook my hand...

He had boycotted
all three
Films
For years?

FOOL of a TOOK!



BlushBlush


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Mar 6 2014, 10:03am)


Annatar598
Rohan


Mar 6 2014, 10:03am

Post #7 of 40 (518 views)
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I know it's a touchy topic but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Such a strong reaction towards a movie (your coworker)?

Wow.

The book isn't going anywhere folks!

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Mar 6 2014, 10:08am

Post #8 of 40 (498 views)
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That Co-Worker? He is... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Smartest guy
in ANY room..

Weather...? it's IN our
Convention Center or a
Closes Closet!

Bomby,
No Like Him!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 6 2014, 10:18am

Post #9 of 40 (495 views)
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One scenario that might be interesting.... [In reply to] Can't Post

would be if an army does set out from Mt. Gundabad (not just Azog/Bolg's crew from Dol Guldur) and Dain gets wind of it, assumes they're trying to horn in on the treasure, and comes after them. After all, at the Unexpected Party, it is said that various people are beginning to eye the Mountain and its treasure. Dain might not have agreed to come on a "forlorn hope", but he might well come after the fact to prevent the orcs from getting the treasure. I don't think it was ever stated that Dain wasn't interested in helping Thorin ever, just not interested in getting his people killed trying to confront a dragon. It still leaves the question of how the word of Smaug's demise comes to Mt. Gundabad, of course. But if the dwarves are watching the orcs, and the orcs get word from the Necromancer it might work.

Somehow I doubt this is how it will actually play out, but it's a scenario I kind of like.

Another and more likely scenario might be that Gandalf sees the orc army marching from Dol Guldur toward Erebor and sends word to Dain to come and help. Or, since they've made such a deal of Thorin needing the Arkenstone in order to rule, Dain might come upon hearing that it had been recovered, though I can't think of a good way they could make that work within the necessary timelines.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Mar 6 2014, 10:19am

Post #10 of 40 (485 views)
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I ain't a huge fan of the LotR films anyway [In reply to] Can't Post

and frankly do not think RotK deserves 11 oscars.
In any case, I don't change my mind on whether I'd like to see a film once I've decided not to.
A bad film is a bad film, awards or not.

Jus' saying. Tongue


(This post was edited by Smeagol Bagginsess on Mar 6 2014, 10:20am)


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Mar 6 2014, 10:44am

Post #11 of 40 (487 views)
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This is an absolute token [In reply to] Can't Post

of the narrow mindness,some(not all fortunately) Tolkien purists and fanatics are surrounded by.It is encouraging though,that Bomby's co-worker broadened his horizons after 2004 and managed to accept another vision of the story after his initial(imo) over-reaction.I really hope the same will happen with the Hobbit trilogy as well, once it is completed!?In my opinion,i strongly believe that some will reconsider their opinions, but, will they be "brave" enough to admit their initial potential misjudgement in public?That remains to be seen.

And Annatar say that again:The books aren't going anywhere.Smile


(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Mar 6 2014, 10:53am)


Annatar598
Rohan


Mar 6 2014, 10:54am

Post #12 of 40 (479 views)
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Within one year people have stopped whining [In reply to] Can't Post

About AUJ.

I'm sure this DOS hate will be over soon. Criticisms are fine (there's more to complain about in LOTR IMO) but stuff like "these movies have ruined my graceful and happy childhood" is just disappointing.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Mar 6 2014, 11:03am

Post #13 of 40 (465 views)
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Criticism [In reply to] Can't Post

is truly fine.I am just not fond of exaggeration and over-reaction.Totally true about AUJ.


Annatar598
Rohan


Mar 6 2014, 11:07am

Post #14 of 40 (470 views)
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There are some great reviews of these movies [In reply to] Can't Post

Out there that deserve more attention than the overly dramatic posts of some people here (the very small but vocal minority).

I still remember how much AUJ was ravaged last year. And now suddenly DOS has been singled out with AUJ now in the LOTR group of "the better films."

AUJ didn't improve over time guys... It's been the same movie since December 13, 2012. Unless you've watched it a million times, it can't grow enough on you to make it suddenly as good as the LOTR films. It's usually the first, second and third reactions that matter most (though it takes time for some, I do admit).

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Mar 6 2014, 11:52am

Post #15 of 40 (464 views)
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Er, excuse me [In reply to] Can't Post

But I have always said that I loved AUJ. DoS is a disappointment to me, and people I know, on several fronts, e.g. ninja elves, especially the horrible depiction of Legolas and his overly long appearance in the film, the music, the lack of character development, particularly for new canon characters such as Beorn and Thranduil, in favour of a made-up subplot, idiotic CGI fight scenes that do nothing to enhance the film, etc. This despite things that I really like about the film, e.g. Smaug, Lake-town, Bard, Beorn's home, and so on.

I've also always said that AUJ is on a par for me with FotR, and is certainly better than RotK.


In Reply To
Out there that deserve more attention than the overly dramatic posts of some people here (the very small but vocal minority).

I still remember how much AUJ was ravaged last year. And now suddenly DOS has been singled out with AUJ now in the LOTR group of "the better films."

AUJ didn't improve over time guys... It's been the same movie since December 13, 2012. Unless you've watched it a million times, it can't grow enough on you to make it suddenly as good as the LOTR films. It's usually the first, second and third reactions that matter most (though it takes time for some, I do admit).



Annatar598
Rohan


Mar 6 2014, 11:59am

Post #16 of 40 (446 views)
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I'm not referring to you at all [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if it came off that way.

I know you liked AUJ, I remember your pasts from last year (I think)! Glorfindela is a hard name to forget ;)

Ok so in all seriousness, there IS a group here and out on the internet spending their lives trying to tank these movies. Which I find quite sad.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Mar 6 2014, 12:00pm

Post #17 of 40 (447 views)
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Oh... but you have mentioned [In reply to] Can't Post

a million times that you also loved DOS except for some flaws.Now ,that love turned into a disappointment?I am confused...And Annatar's opinion was not directed to anyone in particular.It was a general comment about the bashers of AUJ.You were never a basher of that movie so i really fail to understand why you took it personally.Crazy


FoFo64
Rivendell


Mar 6 2014, 3:00pm

Post #18 of 40 (391 views)
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I disagree on the lack of character development. [In reply to] Can't Post

However, as an exception I do agree that they spent far too little time with Beorn. And thus far his inclusion felt like it was more there for the fans than for people who haven't read the book, as he barely contributed anything to DOS. Controversially, as far as DOS goes as a stand-alone film (yes I know Beorn's plot will continue in TABA) I think Beorn could've been left on the cutting room floor. Do NOT get me wrong however, I did Love his inclusion in it, I am just remarking about his inclusion in respect to the film as a stand-alone, not an adaptation.

Now onto the additional new characters. I 100% disagree with anyone that says Thranduil was not developed. I went to see DOS with my girlfriend, who has never read any of the ME books. And she left the theatre saying Thranduil was her favorite character! Other of my friends who have also not read the books felt similarly about how interesting he was in the film. As a new never before seen kind of elf. So I think he was developed just fine.

Bard, another new character, was also developed wayyyy more than he ever was in the actual books. The dwarves themselves are also much more developed than in the novel. In the novel the only dwarves to receive any lines of special significance are Thorin, Balin and Bombur.

In the film we have expanded roles for two dwarves that were largely ignored in the book Kili and Bofur. That gives us a total of four dwarves that have really been explored in the films. As far as the rest of the crew, they have given screentime and dialogue to every single dwarf in the company, with the exception of Bombur, who's remained silent. (But even he has had several laugh out loud moments as a comic relief.)

That's much more than we can say about the novel. In the novel, there are dwarves that to my memory barely ever say a single word or do anything worth merit or mention. That's not the case in the films.

In conclusion, I feel the dwarves are developed better in the films than in the novel. I also feel that the new characters have been explored just as well.

'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film


Glorfindela
Valinor


Mar 6 2014, 4:30pm

Post #19 of 40 (332 views)
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Oh, OK [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't realised that, Annatar. Yes, I do remember constantly defending AUJ last year!


Glorfindela
Valinor


Mar 6 2014, 4:33pm

Post #20 of 40 (334 views)
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Absolutely! [In reply to] Can't Post

I do love DoS, but it is also a disappointment to me on several fronts, as already mentioned. It is good, but it could have been great!


Glorfindela
Valinor


Mar 6 2014, 4:45pm

Post #21 of 40 (338 views)
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Character development [In reply to] Can't Post

I vehemently disagree that Beorn could have been left on the cutting room floor. He is a canon book character, and to me he is one of the most memorable characters in the Middle-Earth novels. And why on earth use such a good actor, and build such a beautiful set, when you are going to give the character all of a few minutes?

With regard to Thranduil, his 'development' is very superficial. In fact, people I know have asked whether he is 'evil' (he is not, even in the book). I feel that his background should have been explained, and this could have been done in a few short words. I certainly did not want to see the non-book canon, unpleasant middle-aged Legolas play a bigger role in the film than Thranduil did.

The fact is that this film frequently sacrificed character development for dumb action such as an Orc attack on an apparently suddenly empty Lake-town.


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Mar 6 2014, 4:45pm

Post #22 of 40 (315 views)
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Ok then! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like a passionate love affair here with its ups and downsCool


Glorfindela
Valinor


Mar 6 2014, 4:50pm

Post #23 of 40 (311 views)
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You could describe it like that, I suppose [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sounds like a passionate love affair here with its ups and downsCool



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 6 2014, 5:07pm

Post #24 of 40 (346 views)
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TaBA [In reply to] Can't Post

There isn't much in TaBA that can be screwed up unless Jackson does so deliberately. One example would be if anyone other than Bard brought about the death of Smaug. Messing with the climax of the BoFA is another. The results of separating the Dwarves in Lake-town is yet another thing that could go awry. I expect at least two of the Dwarves left behind in Esgaroth to reunite with the company before the battle (presumably Fili and Kili). Oin has to survive Smaug and the BoFA because we know that he later accompanies Balin to Moria. Bofur is the only one who could be in any real danger until they reach Erebor.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


FoFo64
Rivendell


Mar 6 2014, 6:23pm

Post #25 of 40 (324 views)
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In Thranduil's defense [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're mistaking how you know Thranduil's story is going to turn out later in TABA with how people are supposed to perceive him in this moment of the story. Remember Thranduil is supposed to be a morally ambiguous character. People are supposed to see him as a slightly villainous character at this point in the story.

I remember when I read the Hobbit, I always saw Thranduil as more of a villain than a good guy. Heck, he imprisons our poor Dwarven heroes! It is not until Thorin grows mad and you see Thranduil's auspices of peace turned down time and again by Thorin, in favor of threats of war, that you realize that Thranduil is not really a bad guy. Just a misunderstood overly protective, overly isolated king, with understandable dwarven resentment, who still cares for his people and the Laketowners.

So I think his character development as it is in DOS mirrors how you're supposed to feel about him at this point in the story. It's okay for your friends to suspect he's a bad guy! Come TABA they'll learn more about Thranduil and see other sides of him, during his rescue of the Laketowners and arguments with Thorin.

Lastly, about Beorn. Don't get me wrong. I love his inclusion. I think the reason why PJ wanted him to be in this story is owed principally to his role in the BO5A. Which is why he is in DOS, despite how little he contributed to the overall arc of DOS, as a stand-alone film. His purpose will pay off in TABA, as I said before.

The reason why I mentioned anything at all about putting Beorn on the cutting room floor, is because unlike the LOTR trilogy, I feel like The Hobbit trilogy is being developed in a more serialized fashion, akin to television. PJ's new method of storytelling lent itself to the creation of character arcs that are not expected to pay off within the movie they take part in, but instead in a later "episode." An example of this is how the Dol Goldur subplot in AUJ served merely as a buildup to the climactic Gandalf/Sauron confrontation in DOS. And how likewise, I suspect, Beorn's inclusion in DOS is meant as a buildup towards his epic participation in the BO5A.

Because of this new style of storytelling, Beorn, on his own, serves no purpose in DOS, but to foreshadow his eventual moment to shine in TABA! Hence, why if you take DOS on its own, he wasn't needed. Why I felt this was worth mentioning is because for the LOTR trilogy, Jackson was more focused on making sure each individual movie stood on its own terms, as its own self-contained story. The Hobbit trilogy does not do this. The Hobbit trilogy is structured like a TV Show. They create plot threads that will build tension to only later be released in the next film. Which is also why he ended DOS with that powerful cliffhanger.

Whether we enjoy PJ's application of serialized drama to filmmaking is up to each viewer. Naturally there has been mixed reception. Hence, why when AUJ came out so many fans and critics cried foul that the added Dol Goldur scenes added nothing (because they didn't yet, on its own). And that's why now noone complains about AUJ as much, because they saw where the Dol Goldur plot went in DOS! Lol. This trilogy is truly One big film.

Phew that was a long post.

'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film

(This post was edited by FoFo64 on Mar 6 2014, 6:27pm)

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