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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: Off Topic:
So called 'Russian' winter Olympics…

SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 11:53pm

Post #1 of 18 (325 views)
Shortcut
     So called 'Russian' winter Olympics…  

Sochi used to be part of Georgia, the country I was born in, but the Russians have stole the land from the Georgians by force, does anyone care?

I wouldn't be surprised if many people didn't even know this…

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


Tigero
Rivendell


Feb 14 2014, 4:42pm

Post #2 of 18 (189 views)
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     The Russians 'stole' a lot of land, as did every nation ever [In reply to]  

If you don't deal with it, you better start a war, if you can't do that you better deal with it.

Pessimists have no disappointments.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 14 2014, 6:00pm

Post #3 of 18 (193 views)
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     Stalin was from Georgia. [In reply to]  

I'd suppose if anyone was ever in a position to give it back it was him.

He didn't.

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 14 2014, 6:02pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 14 2014, 6:24pm

Post #4 of 18 (193 views)
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     How [In reply to]  


In Reply To
I'd suppose if anyone was ever in a position to give it back it was him.

He didn't.


How can you give it back when you rule all over Russia?
Georgia was part of Russia at that time, so how can you give back Russia to Russia? But when Georgia decided to break away frm Russia not so long ago, as many other nations did, it is only moral and rite to give those lands that were historically Georgian territory back to Georgia. Sochi is a Georgian city and a Georgian name.

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/

(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Feb 14 2014, 6:25pm)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 6:45pm

Post #5 of 18 (162 views)
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     *waits for Darkstone to apply this theory to the USA...and begins countdown* // [In reply to]  

 

**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 14 2014, 6:47pm

Post #6 of 18 (156 views)
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     Here Eowyn have some. I made popcorn. // [In reply to]  

 

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 14 2014, 7:08pm

Post #7 of 18 (173 views)
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     Actually Georgia was never part of Russia. [In reply to]  

Georgia was a Soviet Republic in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Russia was an entirely different Soviet Republic.

Also Georgia in the past has done a bit of land grabbing itself, so exactly which parts are "historically Georgian"?

The Armeno-Georgian war inflicted great injury on the cause of the independence of the Transcaucasian republics. The old hostilities of the Georgians toward the Armenians flared up and reached an intensity unparallelled before, making impossible united ArmenoGeorgian action at the Paris Peace Conference. The West was treated to a sad spectacle of two peoples, ruled by parties which were members of the Second International and professed peace to be their chief aim, fighting over a few strips of land in the manner of a Germany or a Russia.
-Firuz Kazemzadeh, "The struggle for Transcaucasia, 1917-1921".

As for why Sochi was Georgian, two words: "Circassian Genocide".

After the ethnic cleansing the Georgians came from the north and colonized Sochi.

I was going to say something about casting the first stone, but that's NT, so never mind.

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 14 2014, 7:09pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 14 2014, 8:23pm

Post #8 of 18 (147 views)
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     Whichever you call it [In reply to]  

Russia was the prime republic that stole all of these lands and forced these other republics to be annexed to the greater Russia , which was technically called the Soviet Union, it wasn't an equal party or innocent...

Now you accused Georgia of "land grabbing", yet where is an example of such an affair ? Georgia is tiny as it is, so. Don't know what sort of "land grabbin" you're talking about, and that's besides the fact that Georgia even before Russia annexed it , was a victim of brutal attacks from Muslim countries such as turkey and Iran ...

You said that "after the ethnic cleansing the Georgians came from the north and colonized Sochi" you forgot to mention who did the cleansing, it was the Russians who murdered all of these people who were living there, so if the Georgians came and colonized an empty land that was extremely close to its borders after Russia has destroyed the local population, what is wrong with that? The land was empty, surely it would be a double edged immorality that the Russians who committed these crimes should also take over the land... Yet this is what has happened exactly later on, and this is the reality today... And I don't know why you are looking for justifications for Russian aggression .

What justification can you find for the Russians who came and eliminated the ethnic population of Sochi, who was never Russian to begin with?

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/

(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Feb 14 2014, 8:24pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 14 2014, 8:33pm

Post #9 of 18 (135 views)
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     Read this [In reply to]  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sochi_conflict

It explains that sochi population was Georgian since ancient times...

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 14 2014, 9:19pm

Post #10 of 18 (126 views)
Shortcut
     Georgians forced Georgia into the Soviet Union [In reply to]  

Russia was the prime republic that stole all of these lands and forced these other republics to be annexed to the greater Russia , which was technically called the Soviet Union, it wasn't an equal party or innocent...

The Red Army invasion of Georgia in 1921 was largely engineered by two *Georgians* Joseph Stalin and Sergo Ordzhonikidze.

In other words, it was Georgians who annexed Georgia into the Soviet Union.


Now you accused Georgia of "land grabbing", yet where is an example of such an affair ?

The Georgian–Armenian War (1918), the Georgian–Ossetian conflict (1918–1920), and the Sochi conflict (1918-1919), among others.

Quite a record of aggression for the less than three year history of the Democratic Republic of Georgia!


..you forgot to mention who did the cleansing, it was the Russians who murdered all of these people who were living there...

Actually it was the Russian Caucasian Army who did the cleansing, which included Georgians.

(See http://en.wikipedia.org/...Forces_(before_1865).)


...so if the Georgians came and colonized an empty land that was extremely close to its borders after Russia has destroyed the local population, what is wrong with that?

That's for the collective consciences of the Georgians to deal with. If they can peacefully sleep on the graves of the former inhabitants, go for it.


What justification can you find for the Russians who came and eliminated the ethnic population of Sochi, who was never Russian to begin with?

That justification is for the Georgians to make. After all, they were the ones who benefited. Maybe they ought to give it back to the surviving descendants of the Circassian refugees. Of course they themselves would have to move back north.

Don't you think? Or is it only the Georgians who deserve to get their land back?

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 14 2014, 9:27pm

Post #11 of 18 (130 views)
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     Wrong. [In reply to]  

It contains a Georgian proferred justification for the conflict, which is not true.

If it was always Georgian then where the heck did all those indigenous Circassians, Adyghe, Ubykhs, Abkhaz, and Abaza come from? (Unfortunately, we do know where they went, and the Georgians helped send them there....)

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 14 2014, 9:54pm

Post #12 of 18 (137 views)
Shortcut
     Twisting the facts won't help [In reply to]  

The inhabitants of sochi as is claimed by Wikipedia clearly states that they were sub ethnic people who were Georgians

Wikipedia :


"The disputed area had been inhabited by Megrelians, subethnic Georgians, an Abkhaz-Adyghe tribe, Zygs, since ancient times."

So Georgia can never occupy a land that was inhabited by Georgians since time immemorial ...

What can you do, facts are touch business, we all need to accept them...

And there were no land gabbing by Georgia, these were conflicts, maybe you should look at the details of what took place there, and the Ossetians were also gran ethnic Georgian group until this minority living within Georgia decided to break away from Georgia cause they were Muslim and the wanted to break away from the majority of Georgia who were Christians... By the way, you should look into the details of why these people converted to Islam from Christianity, the Russians again, by displacing them and sending them to be under the Turks....

At any rate, you should do some objective wading about these matters

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/

(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Feb 14 2014, 10:00pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 14 2014, 9:58pm

Post #13 of 18 (125 views)
Shortcut
     What facts? [In reply to]  

That sentence ends with the phrase "citation needed".

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 14 2014, 10:12pm

Post #14 of 18 (114 views)
Shortcut
     Yes it needs but it doesn't mean that it's wrong [In reply to]  

It doesn't mean that it's wrong...

Circessians are an ethnic Georgian group, read it it's all over the web.
They are sub ethnic and are considered Georgians

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 14 2014, 10:18pm

Post #15 of 18 (114 views)
Shortcut
     Another point [In reply to]  

Read this

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/63530

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 14 2014, 10:36pm

Post #16 of 18 (103 views)
Shortcut
     Circassians are not Georgians, nor vice versa. [In reply to]  

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_people

Then see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians where Circassians are NOT listed as a subethnic group of the Georgian people.

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 14 2014, 10:43pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 14 2014, 10:39pm

Post #17 of 18 (110 views)
Shortcut
     And? [In reply to]  

Does this mean that Georgia is going to invite the Circassians back to resettle their land?

Doesn't appear to.

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 14 2014, 10:54pm

Post #18 of 18 (123 views)
Shortcut
     Please take this discussion to private message. [In reply to]  

The discussion has become a dispute between two people, which is not what TORN is for. If you wish to continue it please do so via PM.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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