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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Unfinished Tales Discussion: The History of Galadriel--extras
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Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2014, 7:11pm

Post #51 of 68 (242 views)
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So, would that be Hugo back as Priscilla? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

So the real reason Arwen is downplayed and mostly relegated to the appendices is so the third volume wouldn't be called "The Return of the Queen"...
... [of the Desert?]


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 8:13pm

Post #52 of 68 (234 views)
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I'd watch it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Frankly, unlike most people when FOTR first came out I identified him more as Priscilla than Mr. Smith.

Says something, I guess.

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


elaen32
Gondor


Feb 13 2014, 10:42pm

Post #53 of 68 (225 views)
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* snert!*// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!



Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2014, 11:26pm

Post #54 of 68 (226 views)
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Its true, Priscilla really stays with you. [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot more fun than Agent Smith. I'm with you.

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Feb 14 2014, 2:15am

Post #55 of 68 (232 views)
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i don't think... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
There were so many kings and kingdoms...its like the Elves when younger were playing with the land and divvying it up, and Kingships seem to indicate...I don't know...ownership?

I agree, having kings - so many kings - seems to be a more primitive way for the Elves to organise themselves. I think this reflects the real world as well - for example the Celts had many kings, each ruling a tribal group with its own identity and probably usually fighting all the other "kingdoms" round about.

Perhaps what's happened with the Elves over time is that they have lost those warlike urges that require the authority of a king, and are now settled and mature, needing only a wise leader to keep things in order. Thranduil's people are probably the most "primitive" Elvish group that we see, still with a king and still somewhat warlike. As you say, kingship may indicate "ownership", while to be Lord and Lady, or Master, is to be responsible for the people rather than to rule them in an autocratic way. (That would fit nicely with Galadriel's "You would have a Queen" too - indicating the difference between her role as a steward and protector of her people, and the autocratic power she would
wield with the One Ring.)


i don't think tolkien associated kingship with a more primitive state, or with warlike activity. ingwe was made king of the peaceful vanyar, and high-king over all.

i get more the vibe that (in general) the loss of kingdoms and kings over time illustrates the decline of the elves. that does not contradict galadriel's value as steward of lorien. however, i think tolkien intended that galadriel not be a queen. i don't get the feeling from the way he treats lineages that (apart from numenor), that women were supposed to rule as monarchs and / or as the sole authority.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elthir
Gondor

Feb 14 2014, 3:37am

Post #56 of 68 (226 views)
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Celebrimbor, lord of Eregion [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'I agree for sure that had Amroth been supposed to be Celeborn and Galadriel's son during the writing of the Lothlorien chapters, this would surely have been mentioned; but the throwaway statement in Many Partings needed no explanation;...'



Agreed. Although CJRT's statement technically includes this later chapter I wouldn't press it.


Quote
... and not going back to add this reference is no proof either - Galadriel's tenure as ruler of Eregion was surely relevant, and nobody seems to suggest that Tolkien's not incorporating it to the LotR second edition means he discarded the idea. Or are you suggesting this?




I can't actually remember if I did... Wink

... but generally speaking I do think Tolkien abandoned the idea of Galadriel co-founding and co-ruling Eregion. To my mind it sort of goes with the [rejected] 'Amroth as Nerwen's son' tale. I also think Christopher Tolkien has a good point with his question about why Galadriel would allow Annatar in Eregion if she were co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion.

Actually I find the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn a fairly problematic account in general. My reaction is [short version]: in my opinion when Celebrimbor became a Feanorean he became the ruler of Eregion, and the former tale of Galadriel being ousted from power was rejected in various aspects.

This helps answer CJRT's question, or would in some measure I think, in that Celebrimbor will arguably have the 'ultimate' say in whether or not Annatar will stay and work with the Mirdain [especially if Gil-galad becomes a Finarfinian he will look more perceptive than Galadriel as co-ruler of Eregion]...

... but if so this part of Nerwen's tale becomes rather vague: Galadriel is in Eregion [known from RGEO], but what she does there becomes a mystery. I have considered that perhaps she goes to Lindon with Nenya when the Three are sent away before Sauron comes with War [this is only based on a later note in which Celeborn is said to have rejoined Galadriel 'in Lindon' after he spent time in Lorien, itself only one of two versions -- that seemingly cannot be dated as earlier or later than the 'other one' -- of Galadriel and Celeborn's movements when Eregion fell], or that she fled to Lindorinand with other Noldor when Eregion fell.



Quote
By the way, a similar lacuna which might be revealing is the omission of Gil-galad from the Nargothrond chapter in the later writings of the Silmarillion. Tolkien's ideas regarding the last High-king's parentage were an identified son of Feanor => Felagund => Fingon => Orodreth. Had it been either Felagund or Orodreth, it surely should have been mentioned in The Children of Hurin! And moving the idea of being sent to Cirdan for safety doesn't make sense (like it did with Fingon, from Hithlum) - the Havens were more exposed, and indeed attacked before Nargothrond.



I don't recall the dating here with respect to the writing of the pertinent section of the Narn [the part that would need revision for Gil-galad to be the son of Orodreth/Arothir], versus the changes in parentage. I came up with this much anyway, assuming it's accurate:

In a note dated 1965 Gil-galad 'escaped' [note also a comment that follows the following citation: 'In the last of the genealogical tables Artanaro (Rodnor) called Gil-galad appears, with the note that 'he escaped and dwelt at Sirion's mouth']:

Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains). His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad). Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Noldor there.

JRRT, August 1965, reproduced in The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-Earth



Granted, considering this last sentence, if JRRT was going to have Gil-galad escape the Fall of Nargothrond then one assumes some new writing awaited to flesh this out.

In alterations made to QS, where Gil-galad is Felagund's son, Felagund, fearing that all strong places were doomed to fall, sends away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and their child ('yet an Elvenchild') Gil-galad. And another note: 'But forseeing evil he [Felagund] demanded Orodreth to send away his son Gil-galad, and wife.' This was struck out, but yet a third note states that the wife of Felagund '... forsook the folk of Nargothrond and went with her son Gilgalad to the Havens of the Falas.' And this forsaking of Nargothrond seemingly takes place when Orodreth expells Celegorn and Curufin from Nargothrond.

The note in which Fingon becomes King of the Noldor and sends his son Gil-galad to the Havens [compared to the 1977 Silmarillion, the line reads: ['… Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor. [Late penciled addition: But his young son (?Findor) [sic] Gilgalad he sent to the Havens]' War of the Jewels. p. 56] is present on the GA typescript, itself dating to 1958.

So the external progression seems to be:

A) Felagund sends his wife and son to the Havens for safety -- A1) or demands that Orodreth do so -- A2) or Felagund's wife forsakes Nargothrond with Gil-galad

B) Then later the idea re-emerges that Gil-galad was sent to the havens, by his father Fingon.

C) Then later again Gil-galad is back as a Finarfinian, but now 'escapes'... I assume escapes the fall of Nargothrond.


Unless I've made a mistake here -- which is quite possible of course.


Anyway I do think the 'Nargothrond element' of Gil-galad as son of Orodreth/Arothir needed some thinking. If Finduilas is now Gil-galad's sister we know she did not 'escape', for example; plus I would wonder [depending upon how old Gil-galad was at the time of course], why or how Turin could rise to such influence and command with Gil-galad in Nargothrond himself.


And probably Finduilas should be stripped of her line to Turin (or it should be altered somewhat) too: 'But you are kingly,' said she, 'even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant.' The Children of Hurin

In short I think Gil-galad needs to be away from Nargothrond for some reason, and even an 'escape' might echo Earendil 'too much'.

Whatever 'too much' means Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 14 2014, 3:44am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 14 2014, 5:30am

Post #57 of 68 (214 views)
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Wonderful points about Celebrimor and Gil-galad, Elthir [In reply to] Can't Post

One point about Gil-galad's potential origins I think you have drawn is quite the spot-on conclusion:

Anyway I do think the 'Nargothrond element' of Gil-galad as son of Orodreth/Arothir needed some thinking. If Finduilas is now Gil-galad's sister we know she did not 'escape', for example; plus I would wonder [depending upon how old Gil-galad was at the time of course], why or how Turin could rise to such influence and command with Gil-galad in Nargothrond himself.

And probably Finduilas should be stripped of her line to Turin (or it should be altered somewhat) too: 'But you are kingly,' said she, 'even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant.' The Children of Hurin


In short I think Gil-galad needs to be away from Nargothrond for some reason, and even an 'escape' might echo Earendil 'too much'.


The connection between a fully mature and an active leader such as Gil-galad in Nargothrond as the brother of Finduilas and resident in Nargothrond really puts a spanner into how that tragedy of both Finduilas and the fall itself occurs. Not sure if I can easily imagine Gil-galad quietly standing by as such changes to Nargothrond are made such as the bridge-building, merely on the whim of a resident Man. As effective as Gil-galad seems to have been, both Finduilas' loss (and that line, as you say, becomes moot) and the manner of Nargothrond's fall may not have been able to happen. I wonder if JRRT wanted to truly craft Turin in Kullervo's shadow, the influence of a steady and resolute brother to tragic Finduilas, as well as an interloper in Turin's rise (also as you point out) might be a bit dampening?







Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 14 2014, 5:34am)


CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 12:36pm

Post #58 of 68 (194 views)
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I'll just note that [In reply to] Can't Post

once again, we're discussing all kinds of people, some of whom never existed but are interesting, but not Celeborn, because he is truly irrelevant. Smile

Thanks for all the detective work in putting together the scraps of information, so often at variance with each other, and coming up with rational deductions about them, Elthir.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 1:14pm

Post #59 of 68 (186 views)
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I think you're right [In reply to] Can't Post

Reading the text again, I can't see any evidence for kingship being represented as a lesser form of government, and even if the later, king-free Elvish societies can be seen as wiser and more mature, they are also clearly in decline, as you say.

A point I had in mind earlier but didn't really express well was that the title "king" isn't always as prestigious as it seems to be. There are greater and lesser kings, and some lesser kings may rank below non-royal rulers of other, greater realms - as we see with Theoden, who is below Denethor in status. Kingship isn't the be-all and end-all of high status, even in Middle-earth.

Interesting point about ruling queens not being a part of how Tolkien envisioned royal lineages. That certainly doesn't reflect Celtic mythology, nor the British monarchy, which had one of its most successful monarchs ever on the throne, Victoria, when Tolkien was born. So I wonder why he imagined the "ideal" monarchy this way?

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Elthir
Gondor

Feb 14 2014, 1:21pm

Post #60 of 68 (191 views)
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Solicitr once noted, some time ago now... [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Quote
*With the revised version of Gil-galad's parentage, the Noldorin system is perfectly simple: straight Salic primogeniture. Turgon would naturally succeed his (childless) brother, and when he died both Idril and Galadriel were Right Out, leaving Orodreth's son as the only male-line survivor of the House of Finwe (barring the excluded Feanorians).




And if spot on, I've still got to figure out the 'Nargothrond answer' concerning Gil-galad Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 14 2014, 1:22pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Feb 14 2014, 1:50pm

Post #61 of 68 (189 views)
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spot-on [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Reading the text again, I can't see any evidence for kingship being represented as a lesser form of government, and even if the later, king-free Elvish societies can be seen as wiser and more mature, they are also clearly in decline, as you say.

A point I had in mind earlier but didn't really express well was that the title "king" isn't always as prestigious as it seems to be. There are greater and lesser kings, and some lesser kings may rank below non-royal rulers of other, greater realms - as we see with Theoden, who is below Denethor in status. Kingship isn't the be-all and end-all of high status, even in Middle-earth.

Interesting point about ruling queens not being a part of how Tolkien envisioned royal lineages. That certainly doesn't reflect Celtic mythology, nor the British monarchy, which had one of its most successful monarchs ever on the throne, Victoria, when Tolkien was born. So I wonder why he imagined the "ideal" monarchy this way?



ffh, when you describe how rank does not always equal status in middle-earth, i think you are spot-on. theoden is king, but there is more splendor, and perhaps prestige, in the stewardship of gondor. galadriel does not hold the title "queen," but she seems the pre-eminent ruler, even above the gondorian stewards (and i would add, exiled numenorean kings).

but i don't think that is tolkien's primary message, just exceptions to his general outlook that a righteous, enlightened king is the ideal. as far as divinely anointed, when the eldar first selected ingwe, finwe, and elwe, there was no "divine blessing." they were still "in the wild" and had not traveled to valinor. so i don't think that's a fruitful argument for why a galadriel or an elrod do not rule as queen or king.

i read galadriel's rulership and elrond's rulership as enlightened, but a shadow of the glory that the eldar once had. without that might and glory, they are not monarchs galadriel is a special case, because i also read that tolkien seemed to have trouble seeing a female as a monarch (rather than a consort).

that is rather sad, considering the many historical precedents in the cultures from which tolkien drew inspiration: boudicca, lagertha, etc.... and more recently, queen christina (of sweden), and queen elizabeth I and victoria (of england / britain).

i do not agree with his apparent assessment of the appropriateness of females to rule as monarchs, but i am thankful he was enlightened in other ways.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


EomundDaughter
Lorien

Feb 14 2014, 2:30pm

Post #62 of 68 (191 views)
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So Agree !!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 14 2014, 11:31pm

Post #63 of 68 (172 views)
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Welcome to TORn and the RR Eomund Daughter! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





sador
Half-elven


Feb 17 2014, 1:54pm

Post #64 of 68 (144 views)
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Yestreday's discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

As usual, I'm a week late; so I do not expect many readers for this post, and will dawdle in nowiz's discussion as well. Blush


We know that name as one of Aragorn's nicknames for the green gem he wore. Did it ever seem magical to you in LOTR?
Magical? I'm not sure. But the one contribution Aragorn made to Bilbo's poem of Earendil was his insistence to add in a green stone.

It had a couple of different stories on its origin. The more impressive one had it crafted by Enerdhil
Why do consider this the more impressive story? It endows the Elessar with greater powers, but as a story I find it less so.


Enerdhil, unlike Feanor, was generous with his creation and gave it to Idril
The daughter of his absolute ruler, if you mind. I won't press the generosity claim too far.

Why would Idril tell him not to give it to anyone else?
Because of the importance of it to Aragorn, of course.
But for an "internal" answer - perhaps she foresaw that it was somehow necessary to his further quest of Valinor.

When he meets Galadriel (at this point she's in Greenwood)
Which contradicts, of course, the description in the Tale of Years, according to which the Istari appeared after the forest became Mirkwood; and Gandalf came last of them.


she's eager to speak with him and get news from home. (Note that there is no mystery who/what he is.)
She knew, no doubt about it. And probably also that she could fool him more easily than Saruman, who was actually a rival.


Now the rules change, and she's required to pass it on someday (to Aragorn). Why do the rules keep changing for this green stone?
Look here, mister; when you write your own story, you change the rules as you see fit.
But you can also say that she never made it back to Valinor - and for Tol Eressea it was not needed (Arwen's white gem was good enough for that)


It has no rules attached to it, and she gives it to Celebrian (thence to Arwen and Aragorn) when she receives Nenya from Celebrimbor since it seems redundant.
That seems quite silly, as she could not use Nenya as long as Sauron held the Ruling Ring. But perhaps she passed it on only in the Third Age.

Should Tolkien have dreamed up another role for it, or gotten rid of it entirely?
No.
For once he creates an artifact which is just beautiful, and does not have any sorcerous use' and you want him to get rid of it?!?


What purpose does it serve with Aragorn other than giving him a fancy name?
Connects him to Earendil, of course.


But the Aragorn-Galadriel connection is a strong one, and doesn't it seem like there needs to be something emblematic of it? What role should it ultimately have played in the world?
I don't know about you; but I like to think that Arwen took it and was buried with it on Cerin Amroth.
So it was gone, with the other remnants of Elvendom.



What version of Celebrimbor makes the most sense to you? The repentant son of Curufin, or just a great smith? The Noldo who adored Galadriel and gave her Nenya and the Elessar, or the one who removed her in a coup d'etat?
The first in both cases, because I prefer characters with more personality.
But I also think the grandson of Feanor is extremely important (and it connects those two unique examples of true penitents in Tolkien's work), and the coup d'etat story never really worked well.

I'm very glad, and proud, that Felagund linked to my old post. I think the one which followed it was also important.

Last, I'd like to commend the RR on getting through a week of this discussion and not giggling about Celeborn's other name of Teleporno, though the temptation has always been there.

We've fallen for it once, so that's enough...



Elthir
Gondor

Feb 17 2014, 5:12pm

Post #65 of 68 (147 views)
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Olorin or Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
When he meets Galadriel (at this point she's in Greenwood)
Which contradicts, of course, the description in the Tale of Years, according to which the Istari appeared after the forest became Mirkwood; and Gandalf came last of them.



I used to find it a notable 'error' that Galadriel would even need the Elessar [for preservation power] at this point, as, since Gandalf has arrived [well into the Third Age], Galadriel can already employ Nenya. Then I thought, maybe Tolkien did this on purpose to give more weight to the other version of this tale, since both [in my opinion] are presented as internal variations...

... but then I thought [my latest thinking on the subject, and possibly subject to change, considering], that perhaps we have a visit from Olorin here, not Gandalf the Istar.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 26 2014, 12:59pm

Post #66 of 68 (116 views)
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I think Thorin wouldn't like it if you pinched him. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2014, 4:29am

Post #67 of 68 (103 views)
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I would take that chance Dernwyn. [In reply to] Can't Post

Bet I *could* make him like it. Sly

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Kim
Valinor


Feb 27 2014, 5:59am

Post #68 of 68 (155 views)
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Not if I pinched him first! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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