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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Chapter of the Week: The Defiler

BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 12:24pm

Post #1 of 24 (858 views)
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Chapter of the Week: The Defiler Can't Post

AUJ Chapter of the Week: The Defiler


This week we are breaking down AUJ Chapter 18: The Defiler, which features Yazneg and his pack (or what’s left of it) returning to Weathertop to inform their leader Azog of their failure to kill the dwarves. Azog, as one might expect, is not pleased and makes an example of Yazneg, throwing him to the wargs, before ordering his minions to send out a word that there is a prize on the dwarves’ heads.


Allow me to begin by saying that I like Azog (both in AUJ and DOS, much more so than Bolg in DOS, for that matter). And although the aforementioned scene is a rather short one, I find it no less interesting than others in this film. Hoping that I’m not alone on this, I invite you to join me on a short walk through these 98 seconds (that must be a record!).


Here are a few questions for you to consider as well as my opinions and observations on the matter. Smile



A. LOCATION


1. I assume most of you have seen AUJ more than once (and LOTR too, of course). Did you recognize Weathertop at your first viewing of the film?
I didn’t, to be honest. Frown
2. What do you make of the filmmakers’ decision to let Azog and his band of orcs and wargs camp on the summit of Weathertop?
I myself like it. AUJ and DOS are full of references to LOTR films, some, in my opinion, excessive, a bit too one-to-one and/or contrived, but not this. This, I feel, is a much more subtle connection, one that I really enjoy.
3. Does this scene change the way you view this location in FOTR (assuming you’ve watched it after seeing AUJ)?
Having re-watched FOTR more than once after seeing AUJ, I can say it has changed the experience for me, even if only a little. It adds to Weathertop’s history, increasing its inauspiciousness, sense that “this place has seen evil before”.
4. Do you think Weathertop makes a good/logical place for Azog and his wargriding hunters to camp at?
I think it does. Not only is it an excellent spot for a lookout, but it also evokes, I believe, some “fond” memories for Sauron’s servants – it is a scene of victory for them (the destruction of the Tower of Amon Sûl by the Witch-king of Angmar and his forces in TA 1409; http://tolkiengateway.net/...athertop#Destruction). What do you think?


B. TIME
The meeting takes place at night. Makes sense – it is orcs we’re talking about. Add the cloudy sky glowing in cold ominous moonlight, plus the ruins, and it is quite a gothic scenery you get. Sounds like a cliché? Sure. Do I mind that? No at all.
5. How about you?
6. How do you feel about “The Defiler” sequence having been placed between “Moon Runes” and “The White Council”? Does it fit there?
In my opinion it does. It reminds the viewer that although Thorin and Company are safely in Rivendell for the time being, danger continues to lurk behind its borders and strongly suggests that their ordeals have only begun (which we know to be most true by now).


C. THE DEFILER
Now let’s get down to the most important thing in this scene – Azog, of course! He, as feared, is still very much alive and hungry for revenge.


6. What do make of his looks (skin color, those tattoo-like slashes/scars, loincloth, metal claw etc.)? [I imagine that this (as well as some other questions here) has been discussed on these boards before, but as I am new here, I'd really appreciate if you wouldn't mind doing it again.]
I’m a huge fan of Azog’s looks. I like how his bone-white skin sets him apart from rest of the orcs, making him stand out (the fact that he’s also very tall doesn’t hurt either). And those evil blue eyes to match his pale skin! Combine this with those awesome gashes, loincloth apparently made of his enemies’ skinned-off faces and a crudely implanted creepy “prosthetic limb” and you get a really menacing-looking appearance. I, as you can probably tell, don’t mind him being a character portrayed via CGI – I think Azog is one bit of CGI done very well.
7. What about his voice?
Could it possibly be any grimmer?
8. Azog and his orcs speak in Black Speech rather than in English/Common Speech. What is your opinion on that?
I’ve been hearing quite a lot of complaining regarding this and I must say I cannot disagree more. I can’t remember where I read that from but some time ago I stumbled upon a notion that this shows they’re more proud, an idea I really like.
9. Azog’s got a cool ride – a large white warg. Or what?


They make a nice match, don’t they? The White Warg even has the same tattoo-like slashes as Azog! But the thing I probably like the most is how Azog likes to stroke his warg. It’s such an awesome (and at the same time eerie) little detail.


D. DIALOGUE AND ACTION

I very much like the entire exchange between Yazneg and Azog, especially the Defiler’s comebacks.

Yazneg: The Dwarves, Master... we lost them. Ambushed by Elvish filth, we were

Azog: I don't want excuses. I want the head of the Dwarf King!

Yazneg: We were outnumbered... there was nothing we could do. I barely escaped with my life.

Azog: Far better you... have paid with it.

10. What thoughts went through your head during this tense conversation?


Yazneg ends up being thrown to the wargs. Although not the most original turn of events, it is a very “orc” thing for Azog to do, don’t you think? And did you notice how Azog strokes Yazneg’s head with his right hand before lifting him up by the throat with his left, metal hand?
11. Did you see that coming? What do you make of this scene?
In my opinion this scene is all about demonstrating just how ruthless and malicious Azog is. He shows mercy to no one. If you fail him, you’re dead – as simple as that.
12. With Yazneg gone, the warg riders need a new captain. Did you know Yazneg’s successor’s got a name – Fimbul?


I only learned this when researching for this CHOW. Source: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Fimbul_the_hunter.
13. The scene ends with Azog shouting out a command to his minions: “Send out word… there is prize on their [the dwarves’] heads!” How do you view this after seeing DOS?
Key scenes: Gandalf showing Thorin the contract on his head in the Prancing Pony, Azog reminding the Necromancer/Sauron that he had promised him Thorin’s head.


E. MUSIC
14. Any thoughts on the soundtrack? Do you think Azog’s theme “suits” him?
I simply love Howard Shore’s music and this tune is no exception. Dark, heavy and unnerving – it’s perfect for the Defiler, at least in my opinion.

15. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter?


Fire away!


P.S. If you enjoyed this scene, I highly recommend you to watch this nice little vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqwy1G3P7K0 Smile

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 14 2014, 1:27pm

Post #2 of 24 (428 views)
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Welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you enjoy your time on the boards, and thank you for diving right in to lead a discussion!

My views:

1-4. I did recognize Weathertop in my first viewing. Though I had not remembered how gorgeous that first shot is, the sceencap you chose is beautiful! I would say the scene did not change my view of the place. But I did find it a logical inclusion into AUJ. It is in the general area of the Trollshaws/Rivendell, and is a good vantage point.

5-6. I had not thought about it being night, but as you say this is quite logical for a meeting of Orcs. Also I suppose given the placement in the film, it might be the same night as "Moon Runes". I did find this to be a logical place to introduce Azog. It tells the audience that the Dwarves have not seen the last of Azog after escaping his Orcs into Rivendell. It also shows us that Saruman's dismissive comments in th WC meeting about "a single Orc pack" do not fully do justice to the situation, since we know Azog is an important Orc leader from the Azanulbizar flashback.

6. Azog is my favorite Orc out of all the Jackson Middle Earth movies. I do not understand the complaints about his not being prosthetic, or his having poor CGI. He's intimidating physically, he has wonderful evil/angry/arrogant expressions, and I think his design is great. One of the origin stories for Orcs that Tolkien had was that Orcs were Elves, twisted into evil/deformity by the Dark Powers. And to me, Azog is very much an Orc in whom this origin is believable. I especially like his blue eyes.

7. Voice- hard for me to separate from his use of Black Speech.
8. Which I agree, is cool! To me this is consistent with the way Elves are shown to converse in Sindarin.
9. I also loved his Warg (including the off-screen tidbit that she is a matriarch). In general I liked that the "Gundabad Wargs" actually looked like gigantic wolves rather than the more hyena-ike design from TTT. She's an imposing and in her own way, beautiful, example.

10.-13. I felt these scenes did establish that Azog is cruel and ruthless.

14-15. I;m not an expert on the music. I liked it, and to me it sounded familiar, I think similar music is used in LotR to denote evil characters/places. Without hearing the various pieces separately, though, i could not say what sets thhe Azog music apart.



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Feb 14 2014, 1:46pm

Post #3 of 24 (450 views)
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A classical Darth Vader scene [In reply to] Can't Post

A. LOCATION
1. I assume most of you have seen AUJ more than once (and LOTR too, of course). Did you recognize Weathertop at your first viewing of the film?
--> Yes, I even noticed it in one of the TV spots.

2. What do you make of the filmmakers’ decision to let Azog and his band of orcs and wargs camp on the summit of Weathertop?
--> I liked it too. It makes totally sense. It reminded me a little bit of LOTRO where a pack of Orcs have "conquered" Weathertop and you have to fight them

3. Does this scene change the way you view this location in FOTR (assuming you’ve watched it after seeing AUJ)?
--> No… it was and still is a sinister placer.

4. Do you think Weathertop makes a good/logical place…?
--> Yes, as you already said.

B. TIME
5. The meeting takes place at night. Makes sense – it is orcs we’re talking about. Add the cloudy sky glowing in cold ominous moonlight, plus the ruins, and it is quite a gothic scenery you get. Sounds like a cliché? Sure. Do I mind that?
--> Finally a full scene where we see Orcs at night. I always felt that we see them to often at daylight… except for a few sequences where they follow the Company.

6. How do you feel about “The Defiler” sequence having been placed between “Moon Runes” and “The White Council”? Does it fit there?
--> It's nice to have a secondary storyline which takes place next to the primary one. And I think it's placement between those two long Rivendell scenes is nice… because it helps that Rivendell doesn't feel too long. We need some more action between those more theoretical scenes where there's no action but almost only talking.


C. THE DEFILER
6. What do make of his looks (skin color, those tattoo-like slashes/scars, loincloth, metal claw etc.)?
--> When I watched AUJ for the first time I didn't like him at all. He looked (especially in this blueish scene) to much like a Na'vi from Avatar. But he grew one me and when I went out of DOS I was a little disappointed that there was so less of him in it.

7. What about his voice?
--> It's dark, it's powerful, it's menacing… not special but I guess it's perfect for an Orc leader.

8. Azog and his orcs speak in Black Speech rather than in English/Common Speech. What is your opinion on that?
--> Why not? I sounds cool… why should only Elves and Dwarves have their own language speaking in the movies? I only dislike that we never hear Azog speaking in Common Speech… at least to Gandalf or Thorin… even Narzug did it in DOS. It makes totally sense that Orcs do speak their own language when they talk to each other… Elves do the same… but sometimes they have to speak common speech because they do it in LOTR all the time.

9. Azog’s got a cool ride – a large white warg. Or what?
--> Very cool! I'm sad that we see her only one time in DOS.


D. DIALOGUE AND ACTION
10. What thoughts went through your head during this tense conversation?
To be honest… I was thinking of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. It's a classical Darth Vader chokes one of his failing Imperial Officers scene from TESB. The way Azog stands looking into the deep night (like Vader on the bridge of the star destroyers looking into the space), turning around very slowly and menacing and then choking his failing henchman and killing him… very Vader-like ;)

11. Did you see that coming? What do you make of this scene?
I have nothing to add. Same here.

12. With Yazneg gone, the warg riders need a new captain. Did you know Yazneg’s successor’s got a name – Fimbul?
--> Since I bought the action figure before watching the film: Of course! Fimbul is my favorite Orc from The Hobbit… also he never appears as the master hunter he was described before.

13. The scene ends with Azog shouting out a command to his minions: “Send out word… there is prize on their [the dwarves’] heads!” How do you view this after seeing DOS? Key scenes: Gandalf showing Thorin the contract on his head in the Prancing Pony, Azog reminding the Necromancer/Sauron that he had promised him Thorin’s head.
Don't leave the scene out where the Goblin King talks about someone who promises a "pretty prize" for "only his head". And later when Azog orders one of his Orcs to bring him Thorins head while the beaten Dwarf it knocked out at the end of AUJ. It doesn't change anything but it makes it clear that he really wants his head… perhaps for his skirt made of Dwarf faces?


E. MUSIC
14. Any thoughts on the soundtrack? Do you think Azog’s theme “suits” him?[/b|
I like it too but it's "only" a variation of one of the Mordor themes from LOTR nothing new but it fits perfectly.

15. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter?
Yazneg, you have failed me for the last time… Don't fail me again. Your now in command Hunter Fimbul. ;)

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 14 2014, 1:54pm

Post #4 of 24 (414 views)
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Vader in TESB. [In reply to] Can't Post

You are SOOOO right, and I did not notice before...



pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 14 2014, 2:27pm

Post #5 of 24 (458 views)
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In response [In reply to] Can't Post

A Location.

1. Yes, right along with a familiar sinking feeling.

2. It makes no sense, where is Aragorns father and grandfather, where are all the Rangers? On holiday? In FoTR Gandalf tells Frodo the road should not be too dangerous, yet in the time of TH orcs freely use it as a base camp? The road is used still by travellers particularly dwarves, are we supposed to believe they have to hack their way through orcs everytime they travel? As always PJ throws Tolkien out the window where it clashes with one of his 'cool' ideas.

3. Yes, it cheapens it. And I didn't like the look of Weathertop in FotR as it was.

4. No, not in the slightest, see point 2.

B Time

5. It would no longer make any difference if PJ put all his orcs on a sunny beach in the Caribbean he plays so loose with the notion they don't like daylight. Its a rule that only applies when they want it too. That he goes for moody, dark and moonlit is hardly a surprise, you could have guessed it beforehand just from a description of the scene content.

6. I dont think Azog fits anywhere apart from in the appendix. His presence in these films is artificial, forced and detracts from the focus of the books story and characters.

C. The Defiler (why is he even still called that in PJs? what has he done to earn the name given he doesn't brand anyone or stuff money in their decapitated head to earn his title?)

6. (again!) He doesn't look like the same race as all the other orcs, and even less so like any of the orcs in LotR's. Sticks out like a sore thumb. It seems rather than distinguish him through character and dialogue it was quicker and easier just to make him look obviously different. Would not be out of place in an xbox game.

7. Exactly as expected- generic bad guy voice A.

8. Well it helps disguise slightly how atrocious the dialogue they are speaking is.

9. I thought Blofelds cat was better and got there first.

D Dialogue and Action

10. Really, minion reports bad news to bad guy, bad guy repays him by killing him? This? Again? Well its only the billionth time we've seen this sort of scene in film I suppose, I would have hated for them to strain or stretch themselves by coming up with something that wasn't a walking cliché start to finish.

11. This scene is full of cliché- from the insipid dialogue to the all too predictable outcome.

12. Why should we care what name he has, the character is utterly disposable and can be replaced at any time with yet another background orc if need be. I like to call him Bob.

13. It makes no sense in light of Gandalf demanding to know who Thorin told about their quest- why even ask when he already knows the answer? Sloppy.

14. Its better than the dialogue.

15. God no!


(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Feb 14 2014, 2:35pm)


BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 4:41pm

Post #6 of 24 (356 views)
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:) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I hope you enjoy your time on the boards, and thank you for diving right in to lead a discussion!

I sure have so far. And leading a discussion - it's been a pleasure.


In Reply To
In general I liked that the "Gundabad Wargs" actually looked like gigantic wolves rather than the more hyena-ike design from TTT.

Me too!


In Reply To
I;m not an expert on the music. I liked it, and to me it sounded familiar, I think similar music is used in LotR to denote evil characters/places. Without hearing the various pieces separately, though, i could not say what sets thhe Azog music apart.

I agree, it does sound familiar, but it should be a new theme ("Azog's theme"). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for your answers!

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 4:45pm

Post #7 of 24 (356 views)
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Star Wars... [In reply to] Can't Post

Great comparison! Smile

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 5:04pm

Post #8 of 24 (359 views)
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OK [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you're so passionate about this scene. Smile


In Reply To
It makes no sense, where is Aragorns father and grandfather, where are all the Rangers? On holiday? In FoTR Gandalf tells Frodo the road should not be too dangerous, yet in the time of TH orcs freely use it as a base camp? The road is used still by travellers particularly dwarves, are we supposed to believe they have to hack their way through orcs everytime they travel? As always PJ throws Tolkien out the window where it clashes with one of his 'cool' ideas.

I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to camp there for a short while, pass through there.


In Reply To
The Defiler (why is he even still called that in PJs? what has he done to earn the name given he doesn't brand anyone or stuff money in their decapitated head to earn his title?)

He does brand Thror's head after decapitating him.


In Reply To
12. Why should we care what name he has, the character is utterly disposable and can be replaced at any time with yet another background orc if need be. I like to call him Bob.

Laugh

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 5:12pm

Post #9 of 24 (345 views)
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The LEGO vid [In reply to] Can't Post

Did anyone have the time to check it out? Like or dislike?

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Feb 14 2014, 5:48pm

Post #10 of 24 (350 views)
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I love these Orc reunions! [In reply to] Can't Post

Always so much bickering and infighting, but at least no one leaves with an empty stomach!


Tongue


Anyway, thanks for the questions, BF!



In Reply To
1. I assume most of you have seen AUJ more than once (and LOTR too, of course). Did you recognize Weathertop at your first viewing of the film?
2. What do you make of the filmmakers’ decision to let Azog and his band of orcs and wargs camp on the summit of Weathertop?
3. Does this scene change the way you view this location in FOTR (assuming you’ve watched it after seeing AUJ)?
4. Do you think Weathertop makes a good/logical place for Azog and his wargriding hunters to camp at?



Yep, I recognized Weathertop right away. I actually was pleased to see it again, for the very reason that it emphasizes the history of Middle-earth. Amon Sûl, as the Rangers called it, was of course one of the watchtowers along the border of Rhuduar. Paired with its reference in the White Council scene, and the knowledge of who we meet there in the FOTR movie, it makes a nice minor callout and clue that the Witch-King, the Necromancer, and Azog, are all in it together...

It also brought to mind the message Gandalf left there for Aragorn in the FOTR book. Apparently it's not only an obvious landmark, but a great place for a reunion. Angelic




In Reply To
The meeting takes place at night. Makes sense – it is orcs we’re talking about. Add the cloudy sky glowing in cold ominous moonlight, plus the ruins, and it is quite a gothic scenery you get. Sounds like a cliché? Sure. Do I mind that? No at all.
5. How about you?
6. How do you feel about “The Defiler” sequence having been placed between “Moon Runes” and “The White Council”? Does it fit there?



That's the great thing about archetypes--they're still in fashion! As I mentioned above, in conjunction with the White Council scene, it functions as a clue to how all the bad guys are linked. It's also a good reminder that maybe those who keep watch over Middle-earth might know a thing or two about the dangers of Dwarves taking off on missions... (even if we don't necessarily agree with them Wink).



In Reply To
6. What do make of his looks (skin color, those tattoo-like slashes/scars, loincloth, metal claw etc.)?
7. What about his voice?
8. Azog and his orcs speak in Black Speech rather than in English/Common Speech. What is your opinion on that?
I’ve been hearing quite a lot of complaining regarding this and I must say I cannot disagree more. I can’t remember where I read that from but some time ago I stumbled upon a notion that this shows they’re more proud, an idea I really like.



I don't really have much feeling about Azog one way or another. He's sufficiently scary and ruthless. I think the symmetric scarring is interesting, along with his skin tone, and I like the fact that his eyes are a spooky icy blue. His face-loincloth--ICK! Now that is defiling some people! I must say I'm glad that wasn't emphasized, although it was there if you were looking for it. Tongue As for his prosthetic hand, well, someone has to do the barbequeing at the reunion, and he's the only one with a fork.




(Yes, that was dreadful, wasn't it? Evil)




Moving right along, I actually like hearing Tolkien's languages as expanded and spoken onscreen. I kinda feel geeky chills. Evil



In Reply To
9. Azog’s got a cool ride – a large white warg. Or what?



Did you know her name is Daisy? It's true! At least, that's what Manu Bennett, who voiced Azog, calls her. (Unfortunately, I can't find the source for the interview where he says that--sorry.) I like the way, in the later scene Out of the Frying Pan, we see the other wargs defer to her as Azog rides up on her. She is the alpha dog.




In Reply To

10. What thoughts went through your head during this tense conversation?
11. Did you see that coming? What do you make of this scene?


I thought Azog was going to strangle him with one hand (not stab him with the barbeque fork Angelic). I think my subconscious must have been conjuring Vader, as Lieutenant of Dol Guldur mentioned! Yep, Azog is ruthless, and if I doubted before I believe it now!


P.S. In this picture of Azog's right hand, the metal bracings look like the ones on Bolg's head in DOS. Does the family all go to the same plastic metal surgeon?




In Reply To
13. The scene ends with Azog shouting out a command to his minions: “Send out word… there is prize on their [the dwarves’] heads!” How do you view this after seeing DOS?




That apparently most Orcs can't read leather notices with Black Speech burned onto them and so must have the message delivered orally...? Angelic
















"I did shatter his lantern, and that would have been pretty fair shooting, I can tell you, if I had been aiming at it!"



BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 7:30pm

Post #11 of 24 (306 views)
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Hahaha [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It also brought to mind the message Gandalf left there for Aragorn in the FOTR book.

Same thing with me.


In Reply To
As for his prosthetic hand, well, someone has to do the barbequeing at the reunion, and he's the only one with a fork.

You're too funny... Laugh

Thanks! It was a true pleasure reading your answers. Wink

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


Calithilel
Bree

Feb 14 2014, 8:04pm

Post #12 of 24 (314 views)
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My thoughts of this ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

A.1
Yeah I did recognize the location from FOTR, I was poking my friend saying: It´s weathertop! It´s Weathertop! So happy and all xD

A.2
I liked it too, for me it shows like it’s a history behind Weathertop, and I think it´s not a bad place to meet either. It makes me feel like we´re still in Middle-earth when seeing places we´ve already seen, not sure how to describe it.

- For the replies to this question by pettytyrant101: The Rangers can´t be anywhere, and by the time of the Hobbit. Aragorn´s father and grandfather are dead, for Aragorn would be like 27 at that time. (right?) I never thought that the Orcs use it as basecamp, but they just use it when they come across to it.
Just like everyone else does when it´s not camped by evil creatures.

And, Aragorn I´m pretty sure busy being up North, or in Rohan/Gondor in the wars there.
That is just my thoughts of it, not sure if its true or not.

A.3
I agree with you there with “this place has seen evil before.”

A.4
I thought it was more like it´s natural that they camp here. I never thought that normal travellers will camp there so much, I think that place is bloody scary, thought that when seeing FOTR for the first time too and still does.

B.5
I do agree with most of what you´re saying. I don´t care if it´s cliché or anything, I LIKE IT.

B.6
That it is placed between the “Moon Runes” and “The White Council” I think its like a break from the safe place of Rivendell. If it wasn´t there, but after Rivendell, I think it will just be too long scenes in Rivendell, even I love Rivendell.

C.6
I love Azog, one of my favourite looking villains. His looks really make him stand out. I´ve seen different drawing of Azog, and so glad PJ picked Azog like he is now, as it´s been said, it makes him stand out. For me it feels like he´s more dangerous, he looks like a master that commands the Orcs/Goblins. Not just some normal Orc looking creature, maybe a bit taller and different clothing/armour.

C.7
Make it any grimmer? Not sure, maybe I just would love it anyway, as long as it doesn´t go any softer or lighter xD

C.8
I think it would just be weird if they spoke in Common Tongue, why would they speak in Common tongue when it´s only evil creatures they speak too? They have their own tongue, they should use it, it makes them look/sound more evil.

C.9
It fits, the White Warg and the Pale Orc. Simple as it is, it stands out. Azog got its own Warg, not some normal Gundabad Warg the others have.

D.10
I actually didn´t expect anything else. What else would Azog do than killing him? Yazneg failed, and when Orcs fail, they don´t actually get a reward either. I hoped that he will end up dead, it shows more who Azog is, its just an Orc.

D.12
Fimbul is the orc that stands there alone, right?
I thought in my head that Azog will say something like this: “Congratulations, you just been promoted.”

D.13
I actually thought the leather thingy in DOS was for the evil Men that lurk around everywhere in ME. And after seeing the conversation between Azog and Sauron, I knew Azog would not just let Thorin be, even Sauron says that they will all die anyway. (He does say something like that, right?)


BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 14 2014, 8:17pm

Post #13 of 24 (282 views)
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Hi! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to see fellow newbies here. I'm glad you took time to answer the questions.


In Reply To
Fimbul is the orc that stands there alone, right?
I thought in my head that Azog will say something like this: “Congratulations, you just been promoted.”

Yep, that's him. And I swear, I too was expecting Azog to say something like that. But no, he's just too serious for that. Smile


In Reply To
I actually thought the leather thingy in DOS was for the evil Men that lurk around everywhere in ME. And after seeing the conversation between Azog and Sauron, I knew Azog would not just let Thorin be, even Sauron says that they will all die anyway. (He does say something like that, right?)

Yes, he does. "Death will come to all."
Wink

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 14 2014, 11:43pm

Post #14 of 24 (255 views)
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--> Personal comments removed from this subthread [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's keep to the topic at hand. Thanks!


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Escapist
Gondor


Feb 14 2014, 11:51pm

Post #15 of 24 (244 views)
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1. Didn't recognize weathertop.
2. I think this makes absolute sense, though.
3. It doesn't change my views on it, no, because we know that some nazgul converged there on the company.

5. I don't think the scenery was cliche. There is a link between orcs / trolls / the like and darkness.
6. I think it fits where it is placed in the movie sequence.

6. I like the way that the body structure somewhat calls back to elves but I think he is a wee bit too shiny and plastic.
7. His voice is perfect.
8. I think the black speech is cool.

9. I liked the way the wargs behaved and reacted.
10. I think the evil villain throwing expendibles over cliffs as punishment for failure is a little bit cliche but I also fear that it is all to realistic. The evil nasties really do do that to their poor underlings, don't they?
11. It was predictable as soon as he laid his hands on the poor worm.
12. No clue
13. I think it makes sense and fits with DOS totally fine.

14. There is something that I like about a little bit of the nazgul theme being in Azog's theme ... if I am remembering that right ... if not, I apologize.
15. Nothing else.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 15 2014, 2:54pm

Post #16 of 24 (213 views)
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I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
For the replies to this question by pettytyrant101: The Rangers can´t be anywhere, and by the time of the Hobbit. Aragorn´s father and grandfather are dead, for Aragorn would be like 27 at that time. (right?) I never thought that the Orcs use it as basecamp, but they just use it when they come across to it.


This is how I saw it too. Also, Azog and his band were not there on an attention-grabbing killing spree, attacking anyone that moved on the road. They were tracking, and eventually ambushed, one specific group of travelers only.

We also know from DoS that they hav the sense to take care not to be detected when it is appropriate. They avoid detection by Elves in Mirkwood before attacking an outpost of the Woodland realm and they sneak into Laketown.



BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 15 2014, 5:42pm

Post #17 of 24 (187 views)
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Couldn't have said it better myself [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog and Bolg are no ordinary orcs. Not only are they bigger and stronger, but also much more intelligent.

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


Kim
Valinor


Feb 15 2014, 8:07pm

Post #18 of 24 (190 views)
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Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

Before I respond to your post, I have to start by saying: this is my least favorite scene in the movie, and the one I skipped over the most. Part of this is because I didn’t like Azog initially, both because I’d recently re-read the book before seeing AUJ, and knew he wasn’t supposed to be there, and also because I didn’t like his CGI. However, one day I had the movie on (after 50 or so views) and I didn’t get to the remote fast enough to skip it, so I just let it play while I was doing something else (mostly likely on TORn). So I ended up just listening to the scene. And I discovered that Azog sounded really scary! I’d let the divergence from the book, and my initial dislike of his appearance take over and didn’t really appreciate him. After that, I’ve generally let the scene run, and I’ve come to accept his presence in the movie and his appearance. So much so, that when I saw the DOS trailer where he jumps up on the parapet in the Woodland Realm, my first thought was that he looked really good – the CGI seemed improved. And I was actually disappointed he didn’t end up in that scene in the movie!

OK, on to your questions:


A. LOCATION
1. I assume most of you have seen AUJ more than once (and LOTR too, of course). Did you recognize Weathertop at your first viewing of the film?
Yes, I did.

2. What do you make of the filmmakers’ decision to let Azog and his band of orcs and wargs camp on the summit of Weathertop?
I liked the call back to FOTR.

3. Does this scene change the way you view this location in FOTR (assuming you’ve watched it after seeing AUJ)?
Hmmm, I’ve only watched FOTR once or twice since AUJ, so it didn’t really change how I viewed the location.

4. Do you think Weathertop makes a good/logical place for Azog and his wargriding hunters to camp at? Sure. I don’t really remember much of the book, so don’t recall the history of this location, but it seemed to make sense.


B. TIME

5. How about you?
It seems an appropriate dark location for a meeting of orcs.

6. How do you feel about “The Defiler” sequence having been placed between “Moon Runes” and “The White Council”? Does it fit there?
Not sure actually, it kind of breaks up two of my favorite scenes in Rivendell; although, I’m not sure if I know of a better place to put it.


C. THE DEFILER
6. What do make of his looks (skin color, those tattoo-like slashes/scars, loincloth, metal claw etc.)?
I wasn’t a huge fan of his looks, although they have grown on me by now.


7. What about his voice?
As I mentioned above, this is what made me reassess Azog. When I was just listening to him, he came across as really scary.


8. Azog and his orcs speak in Black Speech rather than in English/Common Speech. What is your opinion on that?
I thought it was a nice touch. We hear other races speaking in the native languages, so why not orcs? My only problem is that it sounds a little too deliberate ie not naturally flowing. That might be because the actors didn’t really get a lot of time to learn and perform due to all the last minute changes around the characters.


9. Azog’s got a cool ride – a large white warg. Or what?
Yeah, she’s pretty scary too. It took me a while to see that she had the same slashes as Azog.


10. What thoughts went through your head during this tense conversation?
Again, I thought the language was a little stiff, but the actual content seemed to fit with the characters.


11. Did you see that coming? What do you make of this scene?
I didn’t really see it coming, but definitely noticed that Azog picked him up with his metal hand, which was pretty harsh.

12. With Yazneg gone, the warg riders need a new captain. Did you know Yazneg’s successor’s got a name – Fimbul?
I actually didn’t know Yazneg had a name. The only orc name I knew was Azog (I never really knew the orc names in LOTR either).


13. The scene ends with Azog shouting out a command to his minions: “Send out word… there is prize on their [the dwarves’] heads!” How do you view this after seeing DOS?
Well, after the initial AUJ viewing, my first thought was, “Orcs use money?” Tongue It does fit in with what we saw in DOS though.

E. MUSIC
14. Any thoughts on the soundtrack? Do you think Azog’s theme “suits” him?
I thought it was pretty suitable and dark, and have come to like it more and more (also in the DOS soundtrack).

15. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter?
Oakenshield watch: still not in this scene, but patiently waiting for its next appearance (coming soon).

Thorin’s hair: so, when we first see Azog, he’s standing at the edge, looking out over the countryside by moonlight. What isn’t immediately evident is that he’s actually staring at something glimmering in the far distance. He can’t quite make it out, which is why he’s staring so intensely. However, if you look really hard, you can see that it is, in fact, Thorin’s hair glinting in the moonlight. Azog is instinctively jealous of all that magnificent flowing hair, having none himself, which explains why he’s in such a bad mood. Cool

Thanks for the post BlackFox!



BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 15 2014, 8:18pm

Post #19 of 24 (185 views)
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Thanks for answering [In reply to] Can't Post

He really does have a cool voice, doesn't he?


In Reply To
Thorin’s hair: so, when we first see Azog, he’s standing at the edge, looking out over the countryside by moonlight. What isn’t immediately evident is that he’s actually staring at something glimmering in the far distance. He can’t quite make it out, which is why he’s staring so intensely. However, if you look really hard, you can see that it is, in fact, Thorin’s hair glinting in the moonlight. Azog is instinctively jealous of all that magnificent flowing hair, having none himself, which explains why he’s in such a bad mood. Cool

Brilliant, simply brilliant, Kim! Laugh

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Feb 16 2014, 2:07pm

Post #20 of 24 (180 views)
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Some people say the main theme of the Hobbit is greed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thorin’s hair: so, when we first see Azog, he’s standing at the edge, looking out over the countryside by moonlight. What isn’t immediately evident is that he’s actually staring at something glimmering in the far distance. He can’t quite make it out, which is why he’s staring so intensely. However, if you look really hard, you can see that it is, in fact, Thorin’s hair glinting in the moonlight. Azog is instinctively jealous of all that magnificent flowing hair, having none himself, which explains why he’s in such a bad mood.



but I think it's pretty clear the Hobbit movies are all about envy--hair envy. Azog, Bolg, Thranduil, Legolas, Bard--probably even Samug and Sauron--obviously suffer from it. There is no other explanation for their antagonism toward such a sweet and friendly guy. AngelicSly


"I did shatter his lantern, and that would have been pretty fair shooting, I can tell you, if I had been aiming at it!"



cats16
Valinor


Feb 22 2014, 7:48am

Post #21 of 24 (135 views)
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Quite sinister! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
AUJ Chapter of the Week: The Defiler

Here are a few questions for you to consider as well as my opinions and observations on the matter. Smile



A. LOCATION


1. I assume most of you have seen AUJ more than once (and LOTR too, of course). Did you recognize Weathertop at your first viewing of the film?
I didn’t, to be honest. Frown
I did, actually. I think the camera angle is similar to one in FOTR (as well as the lighting), so I picked it out fairly easily. But I definitely understand how it could go unnoticed, as it comes unexpectedly.
2. What do you make of the filmmakers’ decision to let Azog and his band of orcs and wargs camp on the summit of Weathertop?
I myself like it. AUJ and DOS are full of references to LOTR films, some, in my opinion, excessive, a bit too one-to-one and/or contrived, but not this. This, I feel, is a much more subtle connection, one that I really enjoy.
I agree, BlackFox.
3. Does this scene change the way you view this location in FOTR (assuming you’ve watched it after seeing AUJ)?
Having re-watched FOTR more than once after seeing AUJ, I can say it has changed the experience for me, even if only a little. It adds to Weathertop’s history, increasing its inauspiciousness, sense that “this place has seen evil before”.
Once again, I agree. Tongue
4. Do you think Weathertop makes a good/logical place for Azog and his wargriding hunters to camp at?
I think it does. Not only is it an excellent spot for a lookout, but it also evokes, I believe, some “fond” memories for Sauron’s servants – it is a scene of victory for them (the destruction of the Tower of Amon Sûl by the Witch-king of Angmar and his forces in TA 1409; http://tolkiengateway.net/...athertop#Destruction). What do you think?
That's an interesting point. I think that time period gets somewhat overlooked, due to the limited writings on it. I think you're correct, though. Perhaps this was another connection between Sauron and Azog that we didn't consider at first, until DOS.


B. TIME
The meeting takes place at night. Makes sense – it is orcs we’re talking about. Add the cloudy sky glowing in cold ominous moonlight, plus the ruins, and it is quite a gothic scenery you get. Sounds like a cliché? Sure. Do I mind that? No at all.
5. How about you?
Me neither. I think they're using the darkness as a shield, as evil tends to do. They don't want a stray Ranger to come across them. The scene is very pretty, for sure, despite the shadows.
6. How do you feel about “The Defiler” sequence having been placed between “Moon Runes” and “The White Council”? Does it fit there?
In my opinion it does. It reminds the viewer that although Thorin and Company are safely in Rivendell for the time being, danger continues to lurk behind its borders and strongly suggests that their ordeals have only begun (which we know to be most true by now).
Definitely. There is a false sense of security in Rivendell. It's quite ominous, really.

C. THE DEFILER
Now let’s get down to the most important thing in this scene – Azog, of course! He, as feared, is still very much alive and hungry for revenge.


6. What do make of his looks (skin color, those tattoo-like slashes/scars, loincloth, metal claw etc.)? [I imagine that this (as well as some other questions here) has been discussed on these boards before, but as I am new here, I'd really appreciate if you wouldn't mind doing it again.]
I’m a huge fan of Azog’s looks. I like how his bone-white skin sets him apart from rest of the orcs, making him stand out (the fact that he’s also very tall doesn’t hurt either). And those evil blue eyes to match his pale skin! Combine this with those awesome gashes, loincloth apparently made of his enemies’ skinned-off faces and a crudely implanted creepy “prosthetic limb” and you get a really menacing-looking appearance. I, as you can probably tell, don’t mind him being a character portrayed via CGI – I think Azog is one bit of CGI done very well.
I'm with you. I find Azog to be an incredible creation, both conceptually and technically. I think the moonlight really highlights the wonderful texturing that went into his look.
7. What about his voice?
Could it possibly be any grimmer?
Quite sinister! I love the moment when he turns around for the first time. It's a great reveal. His power is so visible here, and he flaunts in such a menacing manner.
8. Azog and his orcs speak in Black Speech rather than in English/Common Speech. What is your opinion on that?
I’ve been hearing quite a lot of complaining regarding this and I must say I cannot disagree more. I can’t remember where I read that from but some time ago I stumbled upon a notion that this shows they’re more proud, an idea I really like.
It makes sense to me. I wouldn't expect a group of *insert ethnicity* outside of the United States to converse entirely in English. 1. It's much more secretive if someone does hear them. 2. It's also very scary. Wink
9. Azog’s got a cool ride – a large white warg. Or what?


They make a nice match, don’t they? The White Warg even has the same tattoo-like slashes as Azog! But the thing I probably like the most is how Azog likes to stroke his warg. It’s such an awesome (and at the same time eerie) little detail.
Very cool! They're a...cute pair. Laugh


D. DIALOGUE AND ACTION

I very much like the entire exchange between Yazneg and Azog, especially the Defiler’s comebacks.

Yazneg: The Dwarves, Master... we lost them. Ambushed by Elvish filth, we were

Azog: I don't want excuses. I want the head of the Dwarf King!

Yazneg: We were outnumbered... there was nothing we could do. I barely escaped with my life.

Azog: Far better you... have paid with it.

10. What thoughts went through your head during this tense conversation?
It's reminiscent of a situation in which one knows they've messed up big time, but also know that the consequences will be harsh. Poor Yazneg...


Yazneg ends up being thrown to the wargs. Although not the most original turn of events, it is a very “orc” thing for Azog to do, don’t you think? And did you notice how Azog strokes Yazneg’s head with his right hand before lifting him up by the throat with his left, metal hand?
11. Did you see that coming? What do you make of this scene?
It's an interesting moment, for sure. My thoughts aren't quite organized, but I think there's a lot going on here that goes unspoken. Great thoughts, though.
In my opinion this scene is all about demonstrating just how ruthless and malicious Azog is. He shows mercy to no one. If you fail him, you’re dead – as simple as that.
12. With Yazneg gone, the warg riders need a new captain. Did you know Yazneg’s successor’s got a name – Fimbul?


I only learned this when researching for this CHOW. Source: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Fimbul_the_hunter.
Awesome that there's so much backstory, much of which we never hear overtly. Just goes to show some of the great effort for 'truth' that's made with these films.
13. The scene ends with Azog shouting out a command to his minions: “Send out word… there is prize on their [the dwarves’] heads!” How do you view this after seeing DOS?
Key scenes: Gandalf showing Thorin the contract on his head in the Prancing Pony, Azog reminding the Necromancer/Sauron that he had promised him Thorin’s head.
Great point! I didn't consider that line of dialogue until now. Definitely, it adds even more to the viciousness of their hunt.

E. MUSIC
14. Any thoughts on the soundtrack? Do you think Azog’s theme “suits” him?
I simply love Howard Shore’s music and this tune is no exception. Dark, heavy and unnerving – it’s perfect for the Defiler, at least in my opinion.
Great way of putting it. It's incredibly deep, and almost sounds ancient in a way. I get a strangely First Age vibe from him. I suppose I mean that I could see him serve Morgoth during the War of the Jewels.

15. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter?


Fire away!

It's short, yet quite powerful. I think it's a very good glimpse into the sad conditions that Orcs found themselves in Middle-earth. They're all servants, in one form or another. And here we're shown the consequences of mistakes in Orc-fashion.


P.S. If you enjoyed this scene, I highly recommend you to watch this nice little vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqwy1G3P7K0 Smile

Thanks for leading us, BlackFox! I know my response is quite late and won't get much traffic, but I'm glad I got a chance to interact with your wonderful thoughts on the scene.

Smile



BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 22 2014, 10:31am

Post #22 of 24 (123 views)
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Thanks, cats16! [In reply to] Can't Post

Great answers!


In Reply To
I get a strangely First Age vibe from him. I suppose I mean that I could see him serve Morgoth during the War of the Jewels.

Now when you mention it, so could I! It reminds me of arithmancer's comment concerning the origin of orcs ("One of the origin stories for Orcs that Tolkien had was that Orcs were Elves, twisted into evil/deformity by the Dark Powers. And to me, Azog is very much an Orc in whom this origin is believable.")


In Reply To
I think it's a very good glimpse into the sad conditions that Orcs found themselves in Middle-earth. They're all servants, in one form or another. And here we're shown the consequences of mistakes in Orc-fashion.

Excellently put.
Wink

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Mar 18 2014, 4:20pm

Post #23 of 24 (89 views)
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I've gathered up many items for our Geeky Observations List1 THANKS // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
3rd draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - January 2, 2014



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"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



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BlackFox
Valinor


Mar 19 2014, 6:18pm

Post #24 of 24 (99 views)
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I'm glad to hear that. ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein

 
 

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