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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
*Spoilers* The token returning to Kili's mother

Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 1:49pm

Post #1 of 22 (1010 views)
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*Spoilers* The token returning to Kili's mother Can't Post

I think the entire purpose of that was to foreshadow Tauriel being the one who returns the token to Kili's mother after he dies.

This is something that has been done over and over again in movies. A hero tells someone they were given a "token" to return to a loved one and that hero ultimately dies; resulting in the other person returning the token to the loved one.

Thoughts?

I think it would be an incredibly emotional moment in the movie.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Shagrat
Gondor

Feb 13 2014, 1:55pm

Post #2 of 22 (568 views)
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I wouldn't care. At all. [In reply to] Can't Post

The only attachment of Kili's I care about is his relationships with Fili and Thorin. That's it. Most people watching the film wouldn't have any idea who Dis was when seeing her. And there's far more important things to wrap up than that.

And why should Kili get special attention over Fili? The two die together with their uncle. There's a grand funeral scene at Erebor. Thorin gets precedent. Their story arcs end there.


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 13 2014, 1:55pm

Post #3 of 22 (517 views)
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It would be enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

.... to show the token lying in the dirt next to Kili's dead body.

Much more moving imho than making a whole scene out of it.


ďAll good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 1:58pm

Post #4 of 22 (528 views)
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Yes, I think so. Here's what I wrote a while back: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It isn't the "official" explanation, and TABA could well change the overall story; but for the time being this is what I tell everyone with regards to Tauriel and Kili:

Kili is clearly smitten by elves, and he happens to be fond of Tauriel for the continual kindness she shows towards him. He's young and impressionable, and flirty. But I don't think this fondness is reciprocated, at least, not in same way.

Tauriel first speaks to Kili in his cell, and that's when she learns about him. Kili tells her he has made a promise to Dis to return to her. Tauriel has lost her parents, and perhaps never knew them. It appeared to me that Tauriel looks towards the stars in memory of her parents. And that is it - Tauriel isn't in love with Kili, she's making sure that the promise he made to his mother is kept. She realises Kili is any other normal being in Middle-earth - he isn't a tyrannical megalomaniac, he's just normal. And he has a mother who wants him home. So whether she saves him from spiders, protects him from Orcs, or heals him of his wounds; it's not out of her love, it's for Dis. Tauriel is doing everything she can to keep that promise, and return Kili to his mother. Every mother should be with their child, and Tauriel knows that more than most.

And that is beautiful. Utterly beautiful.

And what makes it even more distressing is that we all know what happens to both Kili and Fili. There will be a sudden realisation from Tauriel that she has failed not once, but twice. And that their mother won't see either of her sons again. And it will break her heart. Enough, perhaps, to take a ship to Valinor? We'd all be in tears if there was a scene with Tauriel returning the token to Dis.

I think the starlight conversation has definitely sewed the seeds for later repercussions.

Whether or not that is enough to change the minds of people that don't like the Tauriel-Kili sub-plot, I don't know. It's definitely *not* Tolkien canon, but it sure is in the spirit of his books. I could well imagine Tolkien writing this story.


I envisage the scene to be very much like that of Legolas returning the Evenstar to Aragorn in The Two Towers. The other possibility is that while Thranduil and Bard place Orcrist and the Arkenstone in/on Thorin's grave, Tauriel will place the token stone in/on Kili's grave.



elf-lady
Rivendell

Feb 13 2014, 1:59pm

Post #5 of 22 (489 views)
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I don't think that would work in TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe in a book where Kili was THE main character, this kind of scene would be an epilogue. But for the TABA they would not have time to take a side trip like this when the focus is on Thorin's death at the end and Bilbo (and Gandalf) traveling home.


Elessar
Valinor


Feb 13 2014, 2:19pm

Post #6 of 22 (471 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

your second option is the more likely scenario.



CathrineB
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 2:36pm

Post #7 of 22 (461 views)
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That's a good one [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.... to show the token lying in the dirt next to Kili's dead body.

Much more moving imho than making a whole scene out of it.


I completely agree with that one!
No point it making a whole scene about it when, if anything the way you describe it could be far more effective.


Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Feb 13 2014, 2:45pm

Post #8 of 22 (444 views)
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yes, and maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

showing it in another dwarf's hand (Balin, for example) during the funeral.
Soo sad, there's no need to create a new scene or introducing new characters: to have a quick look at that stone after Kili has died is heart-wrenching enoughFrown


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 3:06pm

Post #9 of 22 (465 views)
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I wasn't saying any of that [In reply to] Can't Post

But now that you mention it; I think Kili should get more attention than Fili because the filmmakers have reduced Fili's role to a walnut. There isn't really much to do about Fili im afraid unless if we see a lot of him in film 3.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 3:09pm

Post #10 of 22 (424 views)
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That would be great! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel placing the stone upon Kili's grave.

And excellent thoughts! I completely agree. Tauriel is truly a fascinating character. I wish Legolas had gotten some better writing though :/

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Rowan Greene
Lorien


Feb 13 2014, 3:15pm

Post #11 of 22 (471 views)
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I agree.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The only attachment of Kili's I care about is his relationships with Fili and Thorin. That's it. Most people watching the film wouldn't have any idea who Dis was when seeing her. And there's far more important things to wrap up than that.

And why should Kili get special attention over Fili? The two die together with their uncle. There's a grand funeral scene at Erebor. Thorin gets precedent. Their story arcs end there.



Quote
elf-lady posted: I don't think that would work in TABA -

Maybe in a book where Kili was THE main character, this kind of scene would be an epilogue. But for the TABA they would not have time to take a side trip like this when the focus is on Thorin's death at the end and Bilbo (and Gandalf) traveling home.




MyPrecioussss
Bree

Feb 13 2014, 3:36pm

Post #12 of 22 (482 views)
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Breaking news [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that you don't care does not, in fact, mean that the entire viewing audience doesn't care.

There are these things called opinions. You may have heard of them! Turns out, everyone has them, and lots of times they vary wildly from person to person!


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Feb 13 2014, 3:40pm

Post #13 of 22 (406 views)
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The second one would work best I think [In reply to] Can't Post

Time is already going to be crunched in TABA and I think taking the time to show Tauriel traveling to another location to give the stone to a character we haven't seen before might be asking a bit too much. However, the idea that she's place the stone on Kili's grave would take less time but still be just as emotional IMO.

I also would be fine with it if she left for Valinor afterwards because she's heartbroken. I don't want Tauriel to die in Bo5a partly because I like her and partly because I think it would actually take away from the impact of the three deaths we already have. The last thing we need is to have TABA go the direction of Harry Potter and have so many characters killed off that people start getting confused and depressed so they can't enjoy the rest of the film.

"And we find what we're made of
Through the open door
Is it fear you're afraid of?
What are you waiting for?
Love alone is worth the fight."
-Switchfoot


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 13 2014, 3:53pm

Post #14 of 22 (400 views)
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Unless, of course, we do see her before... [In reply to] Can't Post

One prologue possibility that has been suggested by posters here for TABA is another flashback like in DoS, only in this case to the Blue Hills, showing the forming of the Company/their preparations for the Quest. In that case Thorin taking leave of his sister, and Fili/Kili taking leave of their mother, might be included.



Shagrat
Gondor

Feb 13 2014, 3:59pm

Post #15 of 22 (435 views)
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More breaking news! [In reply to] Can't Post

I can have an opinion as well. Notice my use of 'I'? Where did I say no one would care? The thread starter was asking what others thought. We're not all inclined to agree.

My points are perfectly valid. Why introduce the character of Dis at such a late, late stage in proceedings, however fleeting her appearance? Not seeing her before, or her relationship with Kili, why should we feel emotional?

And it only further relegates Fili. Tauriel giving her the special token of one son when both have died undermines our (and indeed their) feelings towards the other in my opinion. Why should we care and weep for Kili alone, and not Fili? Because that is effectively what such a scene would be asking us to do.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Feb 13 2014, 3:59pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Feb 13 2014, 4:16pm

Post #16 of 22 (382 views)
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Could not care less.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 4:46pm

Post #17 of 22 (364 views)
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A possible middle ground [In reply to] Can't Post

...would be to have Tauriel depart with the stone, and tell Legolas that she's not coming back. That would feed into his character arc as well.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.












macfalk
Valinor


Feb 13 2014, 5:06pm

Post #18 of 22 (361 views)
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Placing the stone on his grave is fine [In reply to] Can't Post

But more than that, no - we've had our fair share of fan-fiction, enough is enough.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Feb 13 2014, 5:17pm

Post #19 of 22 (351 views)
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Seconded [In reply to] Can't Post

Or thirded or fourthed, or whatever.


In Reply To
The only attachment of Kili's I care about is his relationships with Fili and Thorin. That's it. Most people watching the film wouldn't have any idea who Dis was when seeing her. And there's far more important things to wrap up than that.

And why should Kili get special attention over Fili? The two die together with their uncle. There's a grand funeral scene at Erebor. Thorin gets precedent. Their story arcs end there.



wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Feb 13 2014, 5:37pm

Post #20 of 22 (348 views)
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I understand [In reply to] Can't Post

...where you're coming from and have seen this theory before. While it could be a very touching, emotional moment I think it would give undue attention on what is really a side character. Given the story, there's no reason for Kili to have so much focus, especially over his brother and in this case, over Thorin. I imagine such a scene would come near the end of the film, as well, and Kili (especially only Kili) shouldn't really be who the audience walks away thinking of. That's how I feel, anyway. With PJ, though, who knows what he has in mind!

Interesting idea, though Smile

keep smiling Smile


Elarie
Gondor

Feb 14 2014, 12:38am

Post #21 of 22 (230 views)
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Kili's family [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a touching idea, but I can't imagine any of the Durin cousins allowing an elf to go anywhere with Kili's token. It's exactly the sort of thing that makes them reach for their axes. And I can't imagine her getting a very warm welcome in the Blue Mountains either - a Woodland elf coming to the front door with a token that belonged to one of their princes, and the news that he's dead? Yikes!


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 14 2014, 1:48am

Post #22 of 22 (217 views)
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Same here [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not need to see anything more.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13

 
 

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