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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Tauriel could have been a good character...
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7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 5:00am

Post #1 of 113 (1865 views)
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Tauriel could have been a good character... Can't Post

A friend of mine recently gave his opinion on Tauriel that I personally agree with, and he allowed me to share it here.

"Regarding Tauriel, she's hot and looks great when kicking ass; she sure is really pretty. She also acts as the foil to Thranduil, which I rather liked. Unfortunately, those are about the only positive things I can say about her, because quite frankly, I don't like the way she was written.

To start off, I felt that she became sympathetic to the dwarves far too abruptly with little to no development. The film just doesn't explain very well why she does not have anti-dwarf sentiments like the other elves. Without some kind of context or background it feels contrived, forced and highly contrary to what is portrayed to be a very strenuous relationship between Mirkwood elves and the dwarves. I would also prefer that she gradually warms up to the dwarves instead of being sympathetic to them immediately. Seems to me like wasted opportunity for character development.

In particular, I really didn't like her subplot with Kili, because again, it felt forced and contrived. Again, the film shows her warming up to Kili far too abruptly. In addition, doesn't it seem rather stereotypical and sexist to assume that a female character must be involved in a love story? It strikes me as particularly cliched and unconvincing. Not only that, but it gives some viewers the impression that she is motivated by the love of another man, which again seems cliched. I mean, why can't she develop a gradual friendship with someone like Balin? To me, I would have liked the Feast of Starlight conversation be between her and Balin.

Also, I don't like how she seems to be put on a pedestal. By that, I mean that she seems to be a flawless character who is always right. In my opinion, a character with some kind of flaw, even if she is good and heroic, can give her greater depth. Off the top of my head, why not give her a dark history with the dwarves, i.e. she once lead a patrol that killed a group of dwarves, and her guilt changed her view of dwarves. Basically, some flaw or mistake she made in the past to show that she's not perfect, even if her goals and intentions are ultimately good. It may even allow viewers to see her reason to be politically opposed to Thranduil's policies. That would make the character a lot more convincing for me.

Now, about that healing scene. The concept could have worked, but the dialogue and direction/cinematography was uncomfortable to watch and cheesy to say the least. Also, what's with the whole Morgul shaft thing? They should have simply made it poisoned arrow instead of some "Morgul shaft" that gives the impression that Tauriel has similar healing abilities as Elrond.

What particularly irked me is that the concept of this character, a female military elf captain, could have been great, since it can allow us to see what the Silvan elves are really like. Why not show a bit more of her interacting with other Silvan elves? In fact, I was actually looking forward to what she could bring for the Mirkwood elves, and her being female does not bother me at all. I feel that she is a wasted opportunity to make give the Silvan elves believable characterization. Whenever I see her, I'm always going to think how she is wasted potential, and that just bothers me as someone who was looking forward to her.

As a side note, I do like her more than Legolas, but that has more to do with Orlando Bloom's unimpressive acting, and that his stunts are over-the-top to the point of stupidity. Sorry Legolas fans, but something about Bloom's acting just seems uncannily off to me. Maybe I'm biased since I didn't like him in LOTR either."


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Feb 12 2014, 5:04am)


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Feb 12 2014, 5:19am

Post #2 of 113 (1046 views)
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Personally [In reply to] Can't Post

I couldn't agree more Smile

keep smiling Smile


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 6:10am

Post #3 of 113 (1027 views)
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Two main issues [In reply to] Can't Post

As the self-styled Tauriel authority around here, I feel a bit obligated to respond to several of the points you make, because to me they seem to be quite close to factual errors, or at least large misunderstandings.

First, as many people have said, the Kili plot line in DoS really isn't a "love story", though others have just assumed it is. He seems to have something of a crush on her, but all we really saw in the film was Kili rambling in a delirium, talking about Tauriel in the third person. If you watch the scene carefully, you'll see that Tauriel's whole demeanor is that of the nurse reacting to the patient with something of a crush-- and I wouldn't be surprised if Peter Jackson told Evangeline Lilly to play it exactly like that. Thus IMO the whole thing is about a friendship forming between people from two diverse races, which of course Tolkien wrote about in LOTR. In the "real world" this might have developed more slowly, but in the films they don't exactly have a lot of time to produce a "gradual" friendship. Also they needed Kili's character to be developed as soon as was possible, and in a way that reveals personal details (such as his promise to his mother) because of events that will happen in TABA. Having a gradual friendship with Balin develop would have been interesting, but would not have done much for the overall plot.

Second, I think you missed a very important point about Tauriel's character and back story. She isn't flawless at all; arguably she's the most "imperfect" of all the female elves we've seen. She is described as somewhat reckless, "less wise and more dangerous" in Tolkien's words, and this is played out in the orc interrogation scene and in her actions to disobey her King and pursue the orc pack without permission. She also has a deep grudge against all orcs, stemming from her parents being killed by orcs when she was very young. Her apparent "curiosity" about the outside world and the peoples in it (such as Dwarves) is also viewed as something of a flaw by her own people, though as we know it is this "flaw" that generates part of her character arc. So I'd disagree strongly that she's "always right". Like Thorin, Thranduil, and Legolas, she does have flaws, and those serve to make her character more interesting.


In Reply To
In particular, I really didn't like her subplot with Kili, because again, it felt forced and contrived. Again, the film shows her warming up to Kili far too abruptly. In addition, doesn't it seem rather stereotypical and sexist to assume that a female character must be involved in a love story? It strikes me as particularly cliched and unconvincing. Not only that, but it gives some viewers the impression that she is motivated by the love of another man, which again seems cliched. I mean, why can't she develop a gradual friendship with someone like Balin? To me, I would have liked the Feast of Starlight conversation be between her and Balin.

Also, I don't like how she seems to be put on a pedestal. By that, I mean that she seems to be a flawless character who is always right. In my opinion, a character with some kind of flaw, even if she is good and heroic, can give her greater depth


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.












7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 6:36am

Post #4 of 113 (984 views)
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My take [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if I completely speak for my friend, but here's my take.

The writers, including Boyens, have confirmed that it's a romance. I think this idea was in the script from the beginning, since I think Guillermo del Toro originally created her. I think Lilly herself identified it as a romance. Either way, this romance just feels too cliched.

EDIT: Here's my friend's take on this.

"It certainly seemed like a romance to me, where the two are mutually attracted to each other. It just appears to me that she fell into the stereotype that women need a love story for motivation. However, I could have tolerated a romance if it was written in a more believable manner. Again, the bigger problem though is that Tauriel warmed up to Kili far too abruptly. I frankly feel that they could have made the formation of the friendship (or even romance) more gradual with the screentime that they have.

As for Tauriel being "flawed," it certainly didn't come across this way in the film. Simply disobeying Thranduil doesn't really count as a flaw. It frankly seemed more like a vigilante (like Batman) who ignore obstructive bureaucrats to do what's right. If they intended to make her seem flawed by being reckless, it should be more evident, and perhaps have some negative consequences."


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Feb 12 2014, 6:47am)


ec1988
The Shire

Feb 12 2014, 6:54am

Post #5 of 113 (963 views)
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I used to be totally against Tauriel's inclusion [In reply to] Can't Post

But I rather like your friend's idea of Tauriel having a dark history with the dwarfs. That can bring a very interesting angle to her character and make her not as generic as she is right now. I think your friend has it right about Tauriel: wasted potential.


Anduinel
The Shire


Feb 12 2014, 8:26am

Post #6 of 113 (961 views)
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Another thing about Tauriel's reaction to Kili... [In reply to] Can't Post

Even after three viewings of the film, I still came away with the notion that any romantic feelings in DoS were all on Kili's end, namely because of the scene in Laketown. Tauriel is obviously torn between following her prince and helping the Dwarves, but in the end, she still opts to turn around and leave them, even as they're yelling the Kili is slipping away. It's not until Bofur runs up the stairs and all but shoves the athelas into her hands that the scales tip in favor of compassion and she makes up her mind to help them. To me, that level of pragmatism isn't really compatible with mutual romance. I'm pretty sure it'll be a reciprocated thing by the time TABA rolls around, but I didn't get the feeling that Tauriel had fallen for Kili off the bat.

Universal Constant: Those who are quickest to claim that artists should toughen up and learn to take criticism will themselves be delicate flowers unable to tolerate any difference of opinion.


jkm7
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 10:39am

Post #7 of 113 (865 views)
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i agree with your friend [In reply to] Can't Post

She is a wasted opportunity unfortunately. And it doesn't matter to me wheter the love is one-sided (yet) or mutual, fact is there is something there and it is an unneccessary subplot taking focus off important canon characters. Why else would Lilly have felt the need to defend herself for the love triangle plot? I mostly agree with the opinion that she is far too flawlessly designed. That was my main issue with her from the beginning. She is little miss perfect and I find characters like that annoying and boring.


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 12 2014, 11:39am

Post #8 of 113 (856 views)
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Agreed with this. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel is imho one of the best deviations they ever did.


Her scene talking about starlight is epic imho and I really think it is way too shallow just to talk about a romance that takes away from the canon characters... imho it helps perfectly to give an illustration about the upcoming challenges among the Free Peoples and the rather imperfect world they live in. Tauriel really helps establish the politics here.

Last point, they simply found a great actress who was born to play an Elven character.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 12 2014, 11:42am

Post #9 of 113 (872 views)
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I disagree with your friend... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I think she is a good character, with pleasing echoes of some of Tolkien's other female elves. Given that they don't have time within 'The Hobbit' to develop her role any further than they have, I think they've handled her part well. The 'Feast of Starlight' conversation is one of the highlights of the film for me - beautifully written and strikes a perfect note.


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Feb 12 2014, 11:48am

Post #10 of 113 (840 views)
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I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel was a breath of fresh air.,a really well-written character, participating in one of the best scenes of the movie and Elves in general,"The Feast of Starlight".I am really looking forward to see how her story will wrap up in TABA.


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 12:13pm

Post #11 of 113 (887 views)
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When will people realize [In reply to] Can't Post

the difference between love and a crush.

Tauriel is interested in something she is veiled from by her society. It's a natural instinct for anyone.

Kili, as we saw from AUJ, just fancies Elves in general. Tauriel is only different because she returns that attention. And also, he isn't being watched by his fellow dwarves when he's talking to Tauriel about Starlight. He gets his own time to "flirt."

And for the LAST TIME, jeeeez Tauriel doesn't love him. This isn't a shoddy love story as some here put it! It isn't even a love story, actually.

Kingsfoil makes one hallucinate. We all know that. Kili's crush on Tauriel only went out of hand. And speaking of hands, Tauriel does NOT return the hand-holding. She doesn't even flinch as a matter of fact.

As far as deviations from these filmmakers go; Tauriel is one of the best (including LOTR - the Elves at TTT were much more controversial). She is one of the only deep and three-dimensional characters in this cast of stereotypes.

I really think there's more in LOTR and TH movies to nitpick over than Tauriel. As a lover of cinema, these movies are the best. As Tolkien adaptations; not so. Not even FOTR. Hell, most of FOTR isn't even "faithful" (this word used in modern context) to the book! Maybe LOTR is too exhausting a read for some but If you compare the LOTR movies to the books, the filmmakers have taken a lot of liberties.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.

(This post was edited by Annatar598 on Feb 12 2014, 12:16pm)


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 12:43pm

Post #12 of 113 (850 views)
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Here's the thing [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the writers intend this is to be a romance. Boyens and Evangeline Lilly have identified it as such. I personally find the fact that a love story for the only female character in the series to be stereotypical, but that's just my opinion.

I don't want to put words in my friend's mouth, so I'm see if he can join the message boards (not sure if he has the time since he's a college student).


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Feb 12 2014, 12:51pm)


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 1:39pm

Post #13 of 113 (822 views)
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Lilly was joking I think [In reply to] Can't Post

About a love triangle.

If it isn't really a romance 70% through the story (assuming the last hobbit is the shortest film) then it is unlikely to bloom to Aragorn/Arwen levels and remain a playful crush till the end.

I could be wrong but I don't see a full-fledged romance being plausible at this point. The closest thing we could get (and personally, the best) is Kili and Tauriel SPOILERS getting it on right before the BOFA where Kili will die.

That would work quite well and not descend to bad writing in any way.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 2:23pm

Post #14 of 113 (772 views)
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Some corrections [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel's romance with Kili was there since the beginning (it might even have been Guillermo del Toro's idea), but the love triangle involving Legolas was tacked on later.


Elarie
Gondor

Feb 12 2014, 2:26pm

Post #15 of 113 (769 views)
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Tauriel warming up to Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to: "To start off, I felt that she became sympathetic to the dwarves far too abruptly with little to no development. The film just doesn't explain very well why she does not have anti-dwarf sentiments like the other elves. "

My take on this was: During the spider attack scene Tauriel seemed to be just as suspicious of the dwarves as the other elves. It was Kili who captured her attention later with his cheeky trousers comment, and the fact that she responded with a joke that topped his says a lot about her personality. (It was also refreshing finally to see a little bit elf humor, since they are consistently described in the books as "merry folk".)

As for warming up to Kili too quickly - my personal take on this is that Kili has a crush on Tauriel, but on her side she is starting to see that he is a real person, not just an anonymous "other", and starting to feel real compassion and concern for him.

Also, just a side note here - if I've counted correctly, Tauriel saved Kili's life four times in DOS: 1) the spider 2) the orc by the water gate 3) the orc by his bed in Bard's house, and 4) the healing scene. Gosh, no wonder he likes her Smile


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 2:35pm

Post #16 of 113 (742 views)
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Lol no wonder he does [In reply to] Can't Post

the poor fella's infatuated with her!

I think this relationship will bloom just as Kili loses his life. It will be an iconic, ironic and sad scene. Perhaps a hug or a kiss? A kiss seems unlikely. It will probably be a mutual acceptance of love in some way. And right after the BOFA begins.

PJ has a way with battles - they tend to follow a quiet or emotional scene between two to three characters. I'm sure he will stick to this tradition.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Feb 12 2014, 2:48pm

Post #17 of 113 (746 views)
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I disagree with your friend [In reply to] Can't Post

although I do see his points.


In Reply To


To start off, I felt that she became sympathetic to the dwarves far too abruptly with little to no development. The film just doesn't explain very well why she does not have anti-dwarf sentiments like the other elves. Without some kind of context or background it feels contrived, forced and highly contrary to what is portrayed to be a very strenuous relationship between Mirkwood elves and the dwarves. I would also prefer that she gradually warms up to the dwarves instead of being sympathetic to them immediately. Seems to me like wasted opportunity for character development.



She doesn't start out sympathetic to the Dwarves--in fact, she refuses to allow Kili even a weapon to defend himself against an attacking spider. What changes her mind about Kili (in fact, I'm not really sure she is ever sympathetic to the Dwarves as a whole) is that she gets to know him personally. She finds out he's a person she has a fair bit in common with, both of them being "young" with a relatively starry-eyed (sorry, couldn't help that Angelic) view of the world.


In Reply To

Again, the film shows her warming up to Kili far too abruptly. In addition, doesn't it seem rather stereotypical and sexist to assume that a female character must be involved in a love story? It strikes me as particularly cliched and unconvincing. Not only that, but it gives some viewers the impression that she is motivated by the love of another man, which again seems cliched. I mean, why can't she develop a gradual friendship with someone like Balin? To me, I would have liked the Feast of Starlight conversation be between her and Balin.



IMO, the starlight scene does the warming up. They are both "young" and relatively innocent in terms of what they have seen of the world, which wouldn't work with Balin. And Kili carries a note from his mummy, for crying out loud. I’m sorry, but that’s just sweet—ask any female! As for whether having a female character being involved in a romance is sexist and clichéd--well, I suppose that depends on your view of love and romance. I personally don't think it's any more sexist and clichéd than having a male character do the same. Smile I do agree that the "triangle" seems contrived, but her relationship with Legolas (not his with her) is nebulous enough that it's not clear that her interest in Kili is motivated by it (or its bleak future).



In Reply To

Also, I don't like how she seems to be put on a pedestal. By that, I mean that she seems to be a flawless character who is always right. In my opinion, a character with some kind of flaw, even if she is good and heroic, can give her greater depth. Off the top of my head, why not give her a dark history with the dwarves, i.e. she once lead a patrol that killed a group of dwarves, and her guilt changed her view of dwarves. Basically, some flaw or mistake she made in the past to show that she's not perfect, even if her goals and intentions are ultimately good. It may even allow viewers to see her reason to be politically opposed to Thranduil's policies. That would make the character a lot more convincing for me.




Again, I see the point of giving some backstory, but if the starlight speech doesn’t give you enough insight into her character, it will be necessary just to accept she is the way she is. (Why does Fili carry a bizillion weapons? Why does Bofur wear a goofy hat? Why does Kili like Elf maids? Why is Balin so Santa-Clausy? No one knows!) I think she demonstrates that she is flawed--she runs off, apparently in direct, knowing disobedience to her king, to whom she owes a great deal (according to Legolas). Then she leaves Legolas by himself to fight a hoard of Orcs so she can heal Kili.

And, most of all, do we really need more Elf screentime in DOS?







In Reply To
Now, about that healing scene. The concept could have worked, but the dialogue and direction/cinematography was uncomfortable to watch and cheesy to say the least.





On this point I will agree wholeheartedly with your friend.





In Reply To

Also, what's with the whole Morgul shaft thing? They should have simply made it poisoned arrow instead of some "Morgul shaft" that gives the impression that Tauriel has similar healing abilities as Elrond.


I'm not sure what a "Morgul shaft" is either, to be honest. Apparently it means it's got nasty poison on it. I guess with difference between Frodo's wound in FOTR and Kili's is that Frodo's was close to his heart, and he is a Hobbit who can turn into a wraith. Kili is shot in the leg and is a Dwarf who cannot turn into a wraith. So I suppose that means that since the situation is less dire (although no less life-threatening), the kingsfoil would do the same healing with a lesser healer. Or maybe I'm just giving it my own geeky twist. Cool





In Reply To
What particularly irked me is that the concept of this character, a female military elf captain, could have been great, since it can allow us to see what the Silvan elves are really like. Why not show a bit more of her interacting with other Silvan elves? In fact, I was actually looking forward to what she could bring for the Mirkwood elves, and her being female does not bother me at all. I feel that she is a wasted opportunity to make give the Silvan elves believable characterization. Whenever I see her, I'm always going to think how she is wasted potential, and that just bothers me as someone who was looking forward to her.




We do see her interacting with Silvan Elves, as their captain, in both the spider fight and when she tries to find the Dwarves down in the wine cellars. I don't think we need the Silvan Elves to have "believable characterization" any more than we need Bilbo interacting with the Hobbits of Hobbiton to believe in Hobbits, do we? And I repeat: do we really need more Elf screentime in DOS?







"I did shatter his lantern, and that would have been pretty fair shooting, I can tell you, if I had been aiming at it!"



(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Feb 12 2014, 2:53pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 12 2014, 3:12pm

Post #18 of 113 (755 views)
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With all due respect.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Two people talking and a third frowning in the background hardly constitutes a love triangle, does it? Really?

I know what Philippa Boyens and Evangeline Lily have said in interviews, but I think there may be an element of in-joking there. And teasing. Also of exaggeration, to prepare the audience for something which isn't in the book and which, for that reason, was bound to be questioned. For me, what's actually written and in the film trumps what the writer may say, or may be reported to have said, about it afterwards. J K Rowling can tell me until she's blue in the face now that Hermione would never have married Ron: I've read her books, so I know that it did happen. So forget the interviews for a moment and focus on what made it into the film:

Legolas is fond of Tauriel, or so his father believes. The King will not allow this to develop - and there is a strong indication that Tauriel wishes he would. If Tauriel has feelings for anyone, it's Legolas.

Tauriel has a friendly conversation with Kili - with zero indication of romance. It's a meeting of minds: the kind of conversation you might have with a stranger on a train. Later, knowing that his wound is poisoned, and being handed the antidote, she cures him (when she was otherwsie about to leave).

Kili, poisoned and close to death, rambles about (apparently) Tauriel. He seems to have a bit of a crush on her - tries (in delirium) to hold her hand. She looks surprised and doesn't respond.

That's what is in the film, that's what I judge on - and I can't see anything there that justifies the words romance or love. Even friendship is quite a stretch, for two characters who've only spoken twice and don't actually know one another.


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Feb 12 2014, 3:36pm

Post #19 of 113 (744 views)
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About this "romance" thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am finding the varying interpretations of it fascinating!


On the surface, this looks exactly like a triangle--mostly because that's the kind of thing modern viewers are expecting, and so that's what many see. It's what my husband saw, and although admittedly he can barely tell a Dwarf from a Troll, he gave solid reasons for seeing it:
  • Tauriel's love for Kili: Tauriel defied the king and risked her life just to try to track Kili down to save him, and she leaves Legolas to fight alone so she can heal Kili
  • Tauriel's love for Legolas: she seems upset when Thranduil says not a chance
  • Kili's love for Tauriel: the hallucinating babbling
  • Legolas's love for Tauriel: he's jealous of Kili (witness the furious eye-narrowing), his dad says so, and he goes after her into the wide world (and she knows he will).

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the studio demanded romance or a love triangle, and this satisfied them.


I myself am not sure. I think it is certain that Kili is infatuated/has a case of puppy love, but I honestly cannot be sure how Tauriel feels about either guy. IMO she is a caring, passionate person (perhaps to the point of recklessness), but she guards her deeper feelings too well to wear them on her sleeve--as she would, to have such a personality and yet still rise to the position of captain of the guard.


I guess my conclusion is that I'm going to have to wait to see what happens in TABA before I can call any relationship of Tauriel's a "romance." I think it may very well turn into one (or as much an approximation of one as time allows) there, and that is why the writers talk about it as such. But right now I see only interest, caring, and liking on her part. Which, of course, is a great foundation to build a true romance on.


"I did shatter his lantern, and that would have been pretty fair shooting, I can tell you, if I had been aiming at it!"



(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Feb 12 2014, 3:38pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Feb 12 2014, 3:45pm

Post #20 of 113 (717 views)
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Mutual admiration society [In reply to] Can't Post

is how I have seen it since I saw the movie the first time. Never did I think it was a full on love triangle or even really a romance.



Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 12 2014, 3:50pm

Post #21 of 113 (726 views)
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Tauriel Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't see it as a love triangle but I didn't like it still the same. It put too much focus on that whole relationship/friendship whatever and to me was a groanworthy rendition of the Arwen/Frodo scene in FOTR. I hated it. Tauriel herself was fine. I had no issues with that. It was the execution of the story that was an issue for me and there was way too much focus on her in both the film and in the promos. I'm all for including her as a character. I just didn't like the way it was done.

But I didn't see it as a romance either.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Feb 12 2014, 3:58pm

Post #22 of 113 (724 views)
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Subjectivity [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I feel a bit obligated to respond to several of the points you make, because to me they seem to be quite close to factual errors, or at least large misunderstandings.


And where were your facts? Your whole rebuttal was just your own opinions verse the OP's. The whole subject of there being a "romance" between the two characters is completely subjective and you can't tell someone they're right or wrong for taking it one way or the other. If you want to go with straight facts, though, the only thing that has been said concretely is by the actors/writers that have referred to it (numerous times) as a "romance". They're more of an authority than any of use on the matter. If you don't see it in any way romantically and like it that way, good for you, but you can't tell someone else they're wrong because they go against your own opinions.


Quote
Also they needed Kili's character to be developed as soon as was possible, and in a way that reveals personal details (such as his promise to his mother) because of events that will happen in TABA


Since they don't seem to care that much about Fili, why do we need to be so focused on Kili?


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She is described as somewhat reckless, "less wise and more dangerous" in Tolkien's words


That would be all wood elves, not just Tauriel.


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She also has a deep grudge against all orcs, stemming from her parents being killed by orcs when she was very young


Considering you don't take the actors (and writers) mention of a "romance" seriously in interviews, I'm surprised you put so much credence in that one interview. Unless someone has seen that interview (and remembers) all they (and we) have is the actual film to go on. This very well may be cleared up in the EE (I hope it is!), but for now it's not.

keep smiling Smile


Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Feb 12 2014, 3:58pm

Post #23 of 113 (722 views)
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In Tolkien's world [In reply to] Can't Post

when even the greatest love stories are merely hinted at (Aragorn and Arwen only in the Appendices or little more) and as far as Eowyn is concerned... well who realized during the first reading that Eowyn had desperately fallen in love with her idea of Aragorn (because of course it was a huge infatuation)? I did not and I guess few readers did.

So... in The Hobbit, with zero (I repeat zero) female characters....just having a dwarf man and a female elf speaking would have constituted big newsWink

Describing it as a romance could either be a market move on WB's behalf or a tongue-in-cheek comment by Boyens and Lilly...

I agree with you Dormouse and to sum up my opinion I would say that:
1. both are relatively young and open-minded, and also prone to "reckless" behaviour, that is they often react instinctively.
2. Kili sees Elves and he feels he is strangely and inexplicably drawn to them (the fact that his ideas on the matter of Elves are somewhat confused is cheekily rendered in the scene when he mistakes an Elf for an ElfmaidCrazy)
3. Kili is relatively taller and slightly "undwarflike" so he can stand out of the other dwarves' crowd and Tauriel notices him. Later she suddenly admits that she has noticed Kili more than the others but she's embarrassed and she doesn't want to talk about it.
4. Sorry, I find the Starlight scene beautiful and I liked the idea of introducing it. I like it more than the duel between Bolg and Legolas, for example (of course it is a personal opinion).
The connection between Tauriel and Kili seems spiritual and mental: they don't make any direct comments towards each other. If Tauriel thinks that Kili is tall for a Dwarf he doesn't know that, if Kili is strangely attracted by Elfmaids she doesn't get it directly. The infamous "pants comment" comes exactly after Fili is discovered to have smuggled a knife in a secret pocket under his clothes, so this fact makes Kili's remark less saucy in my opinion, because it doesn't completely come out of the blue.

5. the healing scene overall effect leaves me unconvinced : hopefully it will get better in the EE. Anyway, Kili's words are meant to be completely deranged : and Tauriel seems really uncomfortable and uneasy, she doesn't return it in the slightest way . I really liked the comment about nurse and patient, I think that's the exact description of this encounter.

Of course every possibility is left open for TABA and maybe the EE will add some touches: but personally I would be interested in seeing something else in itWink


MyPrecioussss
Bree

Feb 12 2014, 4:06pm

Post #24 of 113 (708 views)
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Rather ironic... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that your friend accuses Tauriel and Kili's scenes of sexism (even though, as others have pointed out, the only thing that could even remotely be construed as an expression of romantic feelings comes from Kili), yet literally the only thing he can find to like about the only major female character in the film is that "she's hot" and "she sure is really pretty."

I do agree with his point that she could have been better developed, but the same could also be said for...practically all the characters in the film, really. The unfortunate reality of movies with large ensemble casts is that character development often goes by the wayside. Unfortunately, Tauriel is always far more harshly criticized for this (and for anything and everything else that could possibly be wrong with her character and portrayal) than any of the male characters are.


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Feb 12 2014, 4:11pm

Post #25 of 113 (734 views)
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Sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

but you are completely wrong here:

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Tauriel does NOT return the hand-holding. She doesn't even flinch as a matter of fact.


Here's a video of the scene, though I know there are multiple out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeJFZ48oRRA

Their fingers lace at the end and yes, she helps it happen.

Finally,

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And for the LAST TIME, jeeeez Tauriel doesn't love him. This isn't a shoddy love story as some here put it! It isn't even a love story, actually.


That's just your opinion. Others opinions are not right or wrong. The fact that so many people are seeing some sort of romantic relationship should tell you something. It's built up in a manner that can be taken either way. If you don't see it romantically, fine, but that remains only your opinion.

keep smiling Smile

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