Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
The relentless fascination with everything Tolkien
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All

SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 9 2014, 5:29am

Post #1 of 167 (6362 views)
Shortcut
     The relentless fascination with everything Tolkien  

Some people will not be moved by Tolkien at all, Some will be moved for a while and then move on, some will be moved for a considerable amount of time and then move on, some will be moved for a very long time and then will move on, and some will decide to be busy with it all their lives in an intimate manner, bordering cult mentality or some kind of fanaticism.

Where do you find yourself in all of these different impressions of Tolkien's writings and art, movies, and poetry that was inspired by his works?

For me personally, this whole thing with been busy with Tolkien and everything that is related to him, has passed on, the train has already left, and I'm very comfortable and content with the way it is now. I view his works as something that inspired and that I enjoyed it for a while, but now it is gone, and I don't have such a strong connection, association and involvement with it anymore, and this is just fine. What I find strange is that some people of all ages and backgrounds are taking these stories and lending them credibility that I find to be obsessive and counterproductive. Yes, the man wrote some great stories, and yes they were great works of art, but they are not more then that. I don't see any reason why anyone has to be so competent with these stories to reach a level of scholarship. These stories are myths, illusions, things that never took place and will never take place, they are products of the imagination of one man, some people forget to take it into consideration and are applying too much weight to a person who was busy doing these things, and studied to do these things.

Take for example my passion for music. I have studied music for a while, and composed many works, I love music deeply, and as a teenager I was first a big fan of Bach, then of Chopin and Mozart, and then of Beethoven, and then of Mendelssohn, I was into Mendelssohn for a number of years, and believed that all other composers were inferior, and then after a while, I got bored of Mendelssohn as well, even though I still like his music, I understood and felt that any human being, no matter how talented and accomplished in the arts can't have my constant unyielding attention and appreciation and involvement. Many of you reading this might not understand this, but the point is that life goes on, and whatever you feel attached to rite now, might not be so in the future, cause people change, everyone changes, and with maturity people begin to understand the real things in life that really matter, things like family and friendship and the long term spiritual status of our selves. The idea that a human being who is given an X amount to live on this earth, about 60 to 80 years on average should lend so much of his precious time on the workings of one man's fantasy sounds like time wasting and a sense of misdirection in life. So I suggest a healthy discussion on perspective. How about taking these stories by this artist, or any other artist in perspective, without losing your sight on the main things in life, such as your own stories, for each and everyone of us have their own lives and stories to experience, dream and live. But with too much preoccupation with the stories of others, people lose the meaning of their own lives, trying to escape to a world that someone else dreamt, and I think that this is woefully counterproductive on almost every level imaginable.

Some will tell you, that these stories by Tolkien are a great alternative to Greek Philosophies, or the Judaic Religions in general, such as Judaism, Christianity or Islam, or eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism, because the philosophies of these various religions have all been tried and all have failed, while not true completely, I'll rather base my life on a philosophy that is imperfect and is susceptible for mistakes and errors, then base it on a fantasy that can never materialize. Face it, we will never have Elves, or Orcs, or Wizards, or Dark Lords, or Hobbits, or any other fantastical creatures, they will never appear in our collective reality, therefore they are nothing more then a myth and a fantasy, and it should stay so, because that is why its beautiful and imaginative because its mythical. Once we try to lend too much credibility to these fantasies, we are trying to forcefully and illogically turn them into realities in vain, and that creates the negative effect of escapism and obsession, the strong frustration of trying to do the impossible.

Best Wishes,

Saul

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/

(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Feb 9 2014, 5:34am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 9 2014, 6:52am

Post #2 of 167 (5896 views)
Shortcut
     The durability of Tolkien... [In reply to]  

...depends on what you're looking for. Adventure, good storytelling, innovative cultures, etc. are the original enticement for most. I think the real long-timers are the ones who look beyond that to the meaning behind some of his moral constructs. What is the consequence of being able to live forever, but tied to this world vs. having a "beyond" to look forward to? What, really, kept Sam and Frodo going on with no real hope of success, survival, or even being able to save those they loved? Is there a "bottom" to the sheer aesthetic appreciation of exquisite prose such as the end of The Ride of the Rohirrim or the elegy at the end of The Battle of the Pelennor Fields?

These myths and stories are not the objective, they're merely the occasion for modeling some questions and issues that never get old. I'm sorry you lost interest in Bach, because his music is another bottomless well of insight and joy that can never get old, in the same way as Tolkien. Harpsichords may be obsolete, just as Elves, or Orcs, or Wizards, or Dark Lords, or Hobbits are "nothing more then a myth and a fantasy," but the music (as well as the prose and the underlying concepts) live on.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 9 2014, 6:55am)


demnation
Rohan

Feb 9 2014, 7:18am

Post #3 of 167 (5880 views)
Shortcut
     While I agree with some of your points, I take issue with some others [In reply to]  

Firstly, I agree about keeping a certain perspective, and that things change and life goes on. I love Tolkien and his work, and enjoy coming here and discussing all associated things with other enthusiasts. I also have other, wide ranging interests and hobbies that have nothing to do with Tolkien . But I also have pressing responsibilities and a family that I have to help take care of. They are more important to me than anything.

On the other hand, I had negative feelings as soon as you started talking about "other" peoples obsession:My first thought was So what? Other people are going to do what they do, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I want to tell you about a very, very difficult lesson that I learned quite recently. It may not be applicable to everyone, but it hit me like a sack of bricks. My father had a difficult early life. He started putting certain things into his body to drown out his pain. Soon, it was out of control. He ended up dying in a gutter at the age of 38. For a long time afterwards, I often wondered what I could have done to help him. But I realized a certain, painful truth: there is nothing I could have done. He had to decide for himself when to stop, and he never did. It cost him his life. He made his choices, and now he is dead.

A bit heavy handed, and a bit too personal; but my point stands: People are allowed to make their own choices of what they allow into their lives, for good or for ill, and there is nothing you, I or anyone can do about it. And you forgot one other type of person in your first paragraph: people who have a life long interest in Tolkien, and don't have a cult mentality. I know they exist, because I come across them all the time on this very website.


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 9 2014, 2:16pm

Post #4 of 167 (5877 views)
Shortcut
     Well, good for you, is all I can say.... [In reply to]  

.. at least, perhaps not quite all!

You have enjoyed Tolkien, and moved on. You have enjoyed Mendelssohn, and moved on. Moving on is clearly part of your script, and that's fine, but why would you be surprised that other people relate to things differently? Why do you find it necessary to condemn the difference, to brand it 'obsessive and counterproductive', as though being like you is the aim and end of all humanity?

I have loved Tolkien's stories for over four decades and have no intention of 'moving on' - in your way. Life does move on and none of us can change that, but I take the things I treasure with me - in my mind and imagination - and understand them differently as I change and learn. They're part of what I am. What I love in Tolkien's stories is not a particular set of characters but a glimpse of something beyond the ordinary things of our everyday world. Hope beyond hope, light where there should be only darkness and despair, beauty that leaves me speechless with wonder. I've glimpsed it in other places too, stories, music, painting, landscapes, but for me, Tolkien's writing is an anchor and a compass. It never fails to evoke that wonder, and that's why I take it with me. It transforms the way I look at other things too, always has.

You can walk away from your dreams and inspirations if you like. I'd rather live with and through mine.


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 2:40pm

Post #5 of 167 (5816 views)
Shortcut
     well said [In reply to]  

very well said.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 9 2014, 3:07pm

Post #6 of 167 (5854 views)
Shortcut
     Reply to the latest comments [In reply to]  

A number of things, no I never said that I don't like Bach anymore, or Tolkien, but there is a difference between 'to like' and 'to obsess'. As to the friend here who said that there is nothing that anyone can do to change the mind of someone who made his choices. Well I strongly disagree, even if there is no chance that's not a ticket for silence. Its proper and worthy to try to point out and help even if your words might not be adhered, still there is some chance that they might help, and even if so, silence is never the answer.

Someone here said that I refuse to let other people have their opinions, and choices in life, and that everyone else has to be like me. I really don't know where have I insinuated all of this. But clearly stating that I disagree with others on some matters is not the same as not wanting them to have their opinions and choices.

As to the first responder, the lady said that people don't really dwell on the narrative but on the age old life questions that never die, and are asked by all. Well, I don't think that this is the case for all of those who obsess about these stories by Tolkien, but even if it were true, I would still disagree that this is productive. Because I'm strongly against basing morality or considering the implications to good or bad based on a story written by a human being. Cause the morality or the world outlook of one person is limited and is prone to be erroneous many times fold. Yes I'm very much so against the idea of turning one men's story or teachings as the only medium of judging morality and drawing from it conclusive answers to human behavior.

I find many things in the writings of Tolkien, which some may believe are positively moral and good, and I believe are totally immoral. Some may argue that Tolkien was not always infusing his morality in these stories, but I think that his style was far from an innocent observer who was telling us stories, he infused his own world outlook and moral code deep within these stories. As a result many readers are getting 'inspired' from this world outlook believing that this is the truth and this is how humans and humanity should conduct itself in similar circumstances. This is the danger of getting too deep and attached to one individual, the appreciation that you feel for him because of the love that you feel from his writings, will cause you to turn a blind eye to certain elements of his moral conclusions when they crash with your own morality.

This phenomena is not only found in the creative writings department, but also in all forms of art. Take Wagner and Chopin for example, some of the things they wrote and did were given a pass, and they were not held to a certain standard, because people were too attached to their music, they refused to associate anything bad with these composers cause they just couldn't accept that any bad can exist within them since they wrote such grandeur and enjoyable music. This is precisely the danger of cult mentality, and overzealous attachment to one individual no matter how great and talented.

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/

(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Feb 9 2014, 3:15pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 3:24pm

Post #7 of 167 (5822 views)
Shortcut
     Well, I don't know anyone who worships the Valar [In reply to]  

Nor am I aware of anyone who believes in the literal existance of Elves (with the exception of the late Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes). Tolkien never set out to be a life coach and never intended his created mythology to become a religion. The morals and ethics of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth are essentially the morals and ethics of Tolkien's upraising and his Catholic background.

I would be less worried about the beliefs and actions of the long-time Tolkien fan than I would for the woman obsessed with going through numerous plastic surgeries until she literally looks like a Barbie doll. Or with the scientific illiterates who equate faith in Creationism with belief in Evolution. We know that Middle-earth is a fictional contruct. Most of us know that the Earth is billions of years old and are at least aware of concepts such as plate tectonics. We will be fine. Really.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 9 2014, 3:25pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 9 2014, 3:28pm

Post #8 of 167 (5837 views)
Shortcut
     The Barbie doll analogy [In reply to]  

Well, don't you see a direct link here?
Tolkien associated beauty with goodness, the Elves are beautiful and therefore must be good in essence.
Isn't it similar to Nazi Ideology who believed that the Aryan race must be the best race and the good race because they possess certain physical attributes that are somehow 'superior' to others?

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 3:31pm

Post #9 of 167 (5821 views)
Shortcut
     here's what I've learn about passion and focus... [In reply to]  

...in my 60+ years long life.

Sometimes, I dabble. I try crocheting. I struggle with learning it and do a few things and move on. I try piecework quilting. I read magazines, I design blocks, I learn how to cut and sew and assemble and then I move on. I begin baking bread. The first loaves turn out like bricks but I keep trying till I get one I like. Then I move on.

Sometimes I focus on things. I listen only to bluegrass... then only zydeco... then only Nordic music... always moving on after a year or two. I linger on dollmaking, with a focus on folk dolls, for a much longer time than on my dabbling crafts - accumulating books, supplies, and material. I give them to people. I sell them. Then I move on.

Sometimes I have a passion that consumes me. Folkdancing. Community singing. Children's picture books (formed into 'educational' units). Tolkien.

I learned stuff with my dabbles. Some of it particular to the dabble. Some of it applicable to other dabbles, foci, or passions. Some of it applicable to life.

I learned even more stuff with my foci. I stuck with these things longer and I delved deeper. I learned about tax numbers and craft fairs. I learned about history and cultures.

With my passions... I learned all those other things and more. I learned about myself and life and other people. I am able to dig deeper into layers of knowledge and understanding.

All of those things I learned helped me. And I will have experiences in all three types of life experiences. And items in one of those categories for me might be in another category for someone else. I might dabble in crochet but others might be making great works of art in the medium. I might enjoy bluegrass for a year while someone makes it their life's passion. Some might enjoy merely reading Lord of the Rings where I am fascinated with delving deeper - through repeated readings of the source material and academic scholarship and through discussions with others - into Tolkien's use of language and myth or any of the topics Elizabeth touched on.

Dabbling... focusing... passioning... it's a choice when one encounters any subject one is drawn to. Which of those approaches one chooses may be influenced by personality, learning style, availability of materials or instruction, social/peer groups, time available, etc. One person might never - at any point - do more than dabble in origami. Or, one person might find at a certain point, they will focus on origami to a greater extent than they might at another point in their life.

I think we need all three of these types of experiences. I think, especially when learning a new thing... we might indulge in dabbling till we find one facet that really draws us in. Perhaps you are dabbling with forays into foci, right now. You are learning a new thing and it is in your best interest to experience a wide range of things till you find something that catches your attention. Or maybe you'll always move from one to another and gain a broad understanding of a large field rather than a deep and piercing understanding of one aspect of that field.

I tend to let passion lead me to the road of obsession. Obsession can have good results and bad, sometimes at the same time. I just try to do regular assessments of my passions and obsessions : is this working for me or against me? Am I learning lots, being of use to others... am I happy? Or am I feeling bound to something I don't always enjoy... am I annoying others... am I unhappy?

When I start to sense I'm unhappy, I try to let go of the obsession and maybe take a break from the passion. Often I come back after taking my break. Sometimes I don't. But I never feel the time spent on any of my interests is wasted.

Don't judge yourself for how you are moving through learning about any subject, yourself, or the world. If you need to, do that simple assessment (whether toward dabbles, foci, or passions): Is this working for me or against me?

If you aren't judging yourself, I think you would feel a whole lot less likely to judge others. It's my experience (personal) that what I judge other people most harshly on is what I judge myself most harshly on. You will never be able to adequately judge other people's head space and activities. Take care of your own head space such that you feel good about yourself and let others see a model of a person you value.

You said you've moved on from Tolkien and you feel 'very comfortable and content' but you've felt a need to come back and worry about the rest of us who haven't moved on.

Once I've moved on from 'something'... to that extent that head space is comfortable and content, I have been able to let go of all worry and fuss about that 'something' which includes what others are doing in regard to that 'something.' In fact, I often recognize that when I have to move on from something, others may still be feeling quite a lot of satisfaction or pleasure from that same thing ... and I feel happy for them. I think people deserve to find joy and who am I to tell them how and in what forms they should find it?


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 3:35pm

Post #10 of 167 (5852 views)
Shortcut
     it only took 9 posts to get to Godwin's Law [In reply to]  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

I think I've spent too much time on this already. I'll turn your best wishes to all of us back to you and bid this discussion adieu.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 9 2014, 3:39pm

Post #11 of 167 (5824 views)
Shortcut
     so called law [In reply to]  

That's his opinion, but I think its irrelevant and my point still stands…

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 4:00pm

Post #12 of 167 (5824 views)
Shortcut
     You seem needlessly alarmist [In reply to]  


In Reply To
Well, don't you see a direct link here?
Tolkien associated beauty with goodness, the Elves are beautiful and therefore must be good in essence.
Isn't it similar to Nazi Ideology who believed that the Aryan race must be the best race and the good race because they possess certain physical attributes that are somehow 'superior' to others?



No, you read far too much into the physical beauty of the Elves. Try reading The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and further works of Tolkien. The Elves can be deeply flawed and are also capable of great evil. Dwarves are unlovely and some sided with Melkor, but are mostly considered to be good. The Woses were strange-looking Men, ugly by most measures, yet they became allies of the Rohirrim.

Saruman was considered the wisest of the Istari, yet he looked too deeply into the Enemy's methods and relied too much on his own judgement and was corrupted. Thingol Greymantle cheated and humiliated the Dwarves of Nogrod who labored for him and they turned on him, killing him and sacking his city.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 9 2014, 4:03pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 9 2014, 4:44pm

Post #13 of 167 (5824 views)
Shortcut
     I have read all of these works by Tolkien [In reply to]  

I have read all of these works by Tolkien, but how does the fact that some elves were wicked disproves what I said?
Not all Nazis were evil, some did help and tried to rescue the victims at the risk of their own lives, case in point Wilhelm Hosenfeld from the film 'The Pianist' saved a great pianist from certain death, and there were others as well. But the very vast majority took upon themselves the mantle of superiority only because they belonged to a certain race, and physical beauty was a strong component of this superiority, they really gave a pass to the beautiful, claiming that as long that you are physically sound and appealing all your bad deeds can be forgiven. This is very similar to the Greek ideology of throwing babies from the mountain if they were not physically perfect.

So in this instance its safe to say that Tolkien's strong association of physical beauty to goodness was wrong and counterproductive in my opinion,

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/

(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Feb 9 2014, 4:48pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 5:14pm

Post #14 of 167 (5813 views)
Shortcut
     Specific points [In reply to]  


In Reply To
A number of things, no I never said that I don't like Bach anymore, or Tolkien, but there is a difference between 'to like' and 'to obsess'. As to the friend here who said that there is nothing that anyone can do to change the mind of someone who made his choices. Well I strongly disagree, even if there is no chance that's not a ticket for silence. Its proper and worthy to try to point out and help even if your words might not be adhered, still there is some chance that they might help, and even if so, silence is never the answer.



I won't argue the point other than to question who you think you are addressing. I can only think of one person on these boards who seems overly obessive and he claims to be a dragon and attacks Tolkien's writings. We haven't heard from him in a while.


Quote
Someone here said that I refuse to let other people have their opinions, and choices in life, and that everyone else has to be like me. I really don't know where have I insinuated all of this. But clearly stating that I disagree with others on some matters is not the same as not wanting them to have their opinions and choices.


No one is attacking your right to an opinion and you greatly exaggerate what was actually stated. You are looking for attacks that were never made.


Quote
As to the first responder, the lady said that people don't really dwell on the narrative but on the age old life questions that never die, and are asked by all. Well, I don't think that this is the case for all of those who obsess about these stories by Tolkien, but even if it were true, I would still disagree that this is productive. Because I'm strongly against basing morality or considering the implications to good or bad based on a story written by a human being. Cause the morality or the world outlook of one person is limited and is prone to be erroneous many times fold. Yes I'm very much so against the idea of turning one men's story or teachings as the only medium of judging morality and drawing from it conclusive answers to human behavior.


It is not productive to ponder the big questions in life if that is all a person ever does. However, there is no harm in reflecting upon them from time to time. And there is nothing wrong with examining the positions of other individuals about such questions. Tolkien, however, despised metephor and tended to avoid using it.


Quote
I find many things in the writings of Tolkien, which some may believe are positively moral and good, and I believe are totally immoral. Some may argue that Tolkien was not always infusing his morality in these stories, but I think that his style was far from an innocent observer who was telling us stories, he infused his own world outlook and moral code deep within these stories. As a result many readers are getting 'inspired' from this world outlook believing that this is the truth and this is how humans and humanity should conduct itself in similar circumstances. This is the danger of getting too deep and attached to one individual, the appreciation that you feel for him because of the love that you feel from his writings, will cause you to turn a blind eye to certain elements of his moral conclusions when they crash with your own morality.



Would you care to give specific examples? You have already shown that your understanding of Tolkien's themes and beliefs is shallow at best. God forbid that people should aspire to be better and more noble than they actually are.


Quote
This phenomena is not only found in the creative writings department, but also in all forms of art. Take Wagner and Chopin for example, some of the things they wrote and did were given a pass, and they were not held to a certain standard, because people were too attached to their music, they refused to associate anything bad with these composers cause they just couldn't accept that any bad can exist within them since they wrote such grandeur and enjoyable music. This is precisely the danger of cult mentality, and overzealous attachment to one individual no matter how great and talented.



I don't think that most people are as blind to the flaws of artists, writers and celebrities as you believe they are. Many of us are capable of separating the work from the author and evaluating it on its own merits. There are exceptions. There is a well-known, living writer who's works I can't force myself to read right now because I am too offended by his public stance on a controvesial matter. I expect that I will eventually get over this, as there are many stories and books from generations past that I enjoy despite knowing about the personal prejudices and misconceptions of their authors. I can set aside Wagner's personal beliefs and still enjoy his music for itself.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 5:36pm

Post #15 of 167 (5823 views)
Shortcut
     Tolkien does not say what you claim he does. [In reply to]  


In Reply To
I have read all of these works by Tolkien, but how does the fact that some elves were wicked disproves what I said?
Not all Nazis were evil, some did help and tried to rescue the victims at the risk of their own lives, case in point Wilhelm Hosenfeld from the film 'The Pianist' saved a great pianist from certain death, and there were others as well. But the very vast majority took upon themselves the mantle of superiority only because they belonged to a certain race, and physical beauty was a strong component of this superiority, they really gave a pass to the beautiful, claiming that as long that you are physically sound and appealing all your bad deeds can be forgiven. This is very similar to the Greek ideology of throwing babies from the mountain if they were not physically perfect.

So in this instance its safe to say that Tolkien's strong association of physical beauty to goodness was wrong and counterproductive in my opinion,



You mean the way the sons of Feanor were all forgiven and allowed to return to the Undying Lands? Wait. That didn't happen? They all met tragic fates? Well, that doesn't prove your point at all. In fact, Tolkien also gives examples of physical beauty used as a trap, tricking and seducing individuals into being manipulated by evil forces. The prime example being Sauron in the guise of Annatar teaching the Elves ring-lore and tricking them into helping him craft the Rings of Power. Also, there is Galadriel's admission that the One Ring would corrupt her, turning her into a Dark Queen who would be "beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night." Tolkien gave her the wisdom to pass that test, but it was written as a near thing that the Lady had long pondered about.

I already pointed out that Tolkien did not exclude the less than beautiful from the ranks of the good. Dwarves and Woses and grim-faced Men were all counted among the Free Peoples, as were the Ents. Tolkien's viewpoint characters in his best-known works were not Elves or Numenorean Men, but plain, oridinary folk in the form of Hobbits.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 9 2014, 5:50pm

Post #16 of 167 (5792 views)
Shortcut
     Silmarillion [In reply to]  

Why are you trying to evade the simple fact that Tolkien in his Silmarillion chose the elves as the chosen race?
And as such he has given them the greatest beauty and power and also wisdom…

And no I didn't have Feanor in mind….

About the Dwarves and other free people, yes some elements within these races were good, but the glory was given to the Elves..and also the choseness…

Many elements within the Dwarf races were negative, greedy, stubborn, distinctive, close-minded, separatists, all in a negative connotation. Not so the Elves, who were clearly the chosen race, and because of that they were associated with beauty. This strong association of beauty to goodness, is wrong in my opinion, and this is the narrative all throughout the tale. Bad is painted as black, the orcs are black and ugly therefore evil, the Hobbits are not ugly, nor beautiful, they are cute, something in between, something that one can 'tolerate'. And they are not automatically associated with goodness, case in point, the wicked Gullum was an ancient type of a hobbit, and not an elf. The Dwarves were cast as trouble makers, greedy and short and very ugly, warlike creatures , hardly an automatic good, though they are given a better status of goodness in the Lord of the Rings, then in The Hobbit. Hurin's Children, there is a very bad Dwarf, Mim, hardly a chosen and automatically good belonging to a chosen race…

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 9 2014, 5:59pm

Post #17 of 167 (5735 views)
Shortcut
     I'll sum up my responses to you in this discussion: Methinks thou doth project too much.// [In reply to]  

 

**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


imin
Valinor


Feb 9 2014, 6:04pm

Post #18 of 167 (5759 views)
Shortcut
     Everyone reacts differently to literature [In reply to]  

For me i have known of Tolkien's works for around 20 years since i was a young child. As a young child i only read The Hobbit, until i was about 12/13 when i read The Lord of the Rings. About a year after i first started reading it, the first film was released. It all combined to make me i would say obsessed with the films for much of my teenage years.

From then i have always been into Tolkien's works getting more and more out of them the more i read, going into The Silmarillion, The Children of Hurin, Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-earth series etc. For me the more i read the more it feels like a realistic place and due to the descriptive style of landscapes it suites a visual person like myself i think.

I wouldn't say i am obsessed now but i read all the main works (TH, LOTR, Sil, COH) every year, usually over winter when i get really into it and it gives me great enjoyment - do i let it take over my life to the point it gets in the way of my relationships or career, no, that to me would be counterproductive. Anything else though is more just enjoyment. I see it as a hobby. Some people go hiking for hours every weekend - is that obsessive or counterproductive? That is how i see it from many people on here - they still have lives and jobs, families, they just so happen to have a passion for one writers works, what is counterproductive about that? I don't think anyone genuinely thinks the works are real life or think they ever could be made real so i don't see how there could be any real frustration? Maybe i am wrong and some people are really frustrated about it not being real but i think it may be a signal of other deeper issues the person may have rather than directly caused by Tolkien's works.

For me Tolkien is my favourite author and from what i have learned he was a decent human being and his writings are my favourite works do i read it every day of the year no, do i slip in a little quote at work from the books every day? Yeah probably, haha. If that makes me obsessed then i guess i am :)

All posts are to be taken as my opinion.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 9 2014, 6:06pm

Post #19 of 167 (5780 views)
Shortcut
     The Second-born [In reply to]  

Yet it was Men who received the Gift of Mortality from Iluvatar. Men have the fate that allows them to remain in the world, undiminished, when Elves have faded and Dwarves have diminished into extinction. The Elves don't seem so superior in this context. The Elves could also be prideful, high-handed, arrogant, quick-to-judge, unforgiving and envious. Tolkien made them the First-born, but far from perfect.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


geordie
Tol Eressea

Feb 9 2014, 6:47pm

Post #20 of 167 (5750 views)
Shortcut
     just a quick nit-pick [In reply to]  

Gollum wasn't some sort of ancient hobbit - (I don't know where this notion comes from). A glance at the entry for Third Age 2453 in Appendix B shows that he was a Stoor, and was born several hundred years after the Shire was founded.


demnation
Rohan

Feb 9 2014, 6:55pm

Post #21 of 167 (5762 views)
Shortcut
     Can't buy what you are selling [In reply to]  

Not too long ago I might have, but a recent reread of LOTR illuminated some things for me. For starters, all these supposed good looking people just don't get along. At all. Nearly everyone, of all stripes regardless of their looks, is met with suspicion and mistrust. When they meet Aragorn, a big thing among the hobbits is that he looks foul but feels fair. Frodo, Sam, Pippin, Merry, Gandalf, Boromir, Gimli, Aragorn and even Legolas are never really described as particularly good looking. Their goodness is defined by their deeds, not by any inherent good looks. And we've already talked about The Silmarillion, where the Elves (especially the good looking ones) are portrayed as rather greedy and a bit cruel, regardless of their firstborn status.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Feb 9 2014, 7:22pm

Post #22 of 167 (5742 views)
Shortcut
     A third choice. (Bach still speaks.) [In reply to]  

I may be wrong, but it seems to me part of the problem is that it appears you've set up only two over-all possibilities concerning those who continue to be involved with a particular composer's or author's work (not those who eventually drop their interest entirely, or almost entirely). I know you gave a long list of possibilities, but it seems to be boiled down to 1) "obsession" or 2) "moving on, while still occasionally "enjoying."

There is a third major choice. I'm a musician and the child of musicians, and certainly went through major obsessive phases in my teens, like listening to the same Rachmaninoff piano concerto twice a day for months. And for awhile (maybe more inexplicably) the Khachaturian violin concerto. I have certainly moved on from that, although, as you say, I still enjoy both. But, to use your words, those who "will decide to be busy with it all their lives in an intimate manner" does not in my mind equal an obsession in any way. (And I don't just mean people who make their living at it like me. I feel the same as I'll describe below about works I love that have nothing to do wth my profession.)

Obsession is almost an addiction. I "had" to get to my daily Rachmaninoff, and got mad if I was prevented. I was furious with those who didn't like that composer. (Glad that period in my life is over!Smile).

But there are composers for which lifelong intimacy is not an obsession for me, but part of a life where, like sunshine on snow, explosive mountain ranges, or
your grandmother's favorite lullaby, continue to pump life into the soul, and peace, and bits of truth. There is a difference between "basing" your life on one
person's creation (probably not a good idea) and letting that person's creation both feed and remind one of the universal truths that may be out there, and the intimate,
personal truths of how we relate to each other and to ourselves. Bach, Tolkien, Shakespeare, Monet (and on) in my mind tap into, reveal, and in their
own small way transmit the nature of the universe, the nature of what happens between people when certain thoughts and attitudes hold sway (Tolkien was very
good at that), serve to remind us of those things, and inspire us to look for them, if we let it.
I certainly have been obsessed with Tolkien on and off in the past (for years in my teens), but eventually I always found myself "moving on" from the obsession--the "need." But there is something I hope I never move on from, and my point is, it's far more of an involvement than you seem to be expressing regarding your feelings about Mendelssohn's music, etc.

I'll use Bach as an example. As I'm sure many of you here who play an instrument can say, in experiencing Bach from the "inside" as well as the outside, I find I'm
am still affected as powerfully by what he has to say as I was as a kid. It's often overwhelming. Yet, Bach is one of the composers I was never obsessed with. I
never listened to the same piece every day for months, and never listened to any Bach even on a weekly basis, at least not "on purpose." But when I listen, he speaks. With a power and beauty and with depths I simply can't comprehend. It doesn't lead me to make Bach a god, but to listen to God, for what he may lead me to get from Bach. Or to listen to my own heart and find what Bach's music triggered. Or just rest in the waves and let them carry me on whatever the musical journey may be. I don't want to "move on" from any composer who can do that for me (there are others, too). But I am not obssessed. I don't base my life on Bach or Tolkien. I just let them speak, and take it for what it's worth. And above all, I allow them to move me as deeply as they did when I first "met" them. I can't magine any good reason for missing that. It would be like living tin the shallows.

The difference between that and an obsession is that I don't spend huge chunks of my day thinking of them or thinking in terms of them, and as a Christian, I certainly believe in basing my life on the universal, rather than the vision of any particular person.
But when they speak I try to listen with all my heart. Those who are created in the image of God (and in my belief system, that's all of us) can and do share important messages from that inexhaustible well. (Even the Bible says that, if no one minds me quoting from it here, from Ephesians 4: 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.)

Anyway, that's my feeling about the existance of a third "mode," which oddly enough I think you state very well with your phrase I quoted above. Maybe the difference is what you mean by "busy." Entranced, and unable to get away for hours a day for weeks or more might be an obsession. Experiencing the works great composers, authors, artists, etc.
"in an intimate manner" frequently as a part of life (not the whole) isn't an obsession at all. But it is--to me--a certain part (not at all the whole) of what infuses life with meaning, by reminding me of the real nature of things and people. That's whay so many love Tolkien long-term and keep his works with them. He reminds us of loyalty, of higher good, of hope against hope, of the profound beauty of the natural world with an attention and clarity that I find in very few places. As Tolkien may have wished, to me refreshes my view of the Creator's creation.

Maybe it's like this: If I move in too much, so I only se the work itself, it becomes an obsession in your sense (?). If I move out too far, I lose the "flash in the soul" that transmits the message.

(Or I'm just really intense and take everything too seriously.Smile)



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Feb 9 2014, 7:29pm

Post #23 of 167 (5719 views)
Shortcut
     P.S. [In reply to]  

I understand that is a common trap. But I believe Tolkien made them beautiful, not because he thought a beautiful race must be good, but becasue he believed God created everthing with great and transcendent beauty, including the elves. When that creation was later marred, some things lost their beauty outside (orcs), and some things lost their beauty inside, and eventually some lost both. Annatar looked pretty good! I think if you have that very real trap in mind (looks good=is good) many things will look like that trap when it isn't at all what was intended.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Feb 9 2014, 7:37pm

Post #24 of 167 (5717 views)
Shortcut
     I'm a bit confused [In reply to]  

I thought Stoors were a type of Hobbit.Blush


Rimmirath
Registered User


Feb 9 2014, 8:02pm

Post #25 of 167 (5742 views)
Shortcut
     Ahhhh, so very well said. [In reply to]  

I so agree Magpie. And now I must leave this thread that very much amazes me by how much others want to control the thoughts or pursuits of others..

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.