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The relentless fascination with everything Tolkien
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dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 13 2014, 11:40am

Post #151 of 167 (2929 views)
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     Daniel, I salute you! Wonderful post // [In reply to]  

 


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 11:44am

Post #152 of 167 (2966 views)
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     Wow... Greater? [In reply to]  

Properly schooled and diminished :)

There are few things in the world that bring joy... which is, of course, based on personal perspective. I completely respect you opinion and envy you the ability to express it so well. You make some good points.

I have many things that bring me joy: God, Family/Friends, Tolkien and TORn are right up there at the top. I'm relieved I have so many things that I feel enrich my life and have to believe in... outside myself ;)

I sincerely wish you all good things.


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
3rd draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - January 2, 2014



sample

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists (updated soon)


(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Feb 13 2014, 11:46am)


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 2:16pm

Post #153 of 167 (2947 views)
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     "My brother, it seems your friends have not done you justice in your education..." [In reply to]  

“A Swedish minister having assembled the chiefs of the Susquehanna Indians, made a sermon to them, acquainting them with the principal historical facts on which our religion is founded — such as the fall of our first parents by eating an apple, the coming of Christ to repair the mischief, his miracles and suffering, etc. When he had finished an Indian orator stood up to thank him.

‘What you have told us,’ says he, ‘is all very good. It is indeed bad to eat apples. It is better to make them all into cider. We are much obliged by your kindness in coming so far to tell us those things which you have heard from your mothers. In return, I will tell you some of those we have heard from ours.

‘In the beginning, our fathers had only the flesh of animals to subsist on, and if their hunting was unsuccessful they were starving. Two of our young hunters, having killed a deer, made a fire in the woods to boil some parts of it. When they were about to satisfy their hunger, they beheld a beautiful young woman descend from the clouds and seat herself on that hill which you see yonder among the Blue Mountains.

‘They said to each other, “It is a spirit that perhaps has smelt our broiling venison and wishes to eat of it; let us offer some to her.” They presented her with the tongue; she was pleased with the taste of it and said: “Your kindness shall be rewarded; come to this place after thirteen moons, and you will find something that will be of great benefit in nourishing you and your children to the latest generations.” They did so, and to their surprise found plants they had never seen before, but which from that ancient time have been constantly cultivated among us to our great advantage. Where her right hand had touched the ground they found maize; where her left had touched it they found kidney-beans; and where her backside had sat on it they found tobacco.’

The good missionary, disgusted with this idle tale, said: ‘What I delivered to you were sacred truths; but what you tell me is mere fable, fiction, and falsehood.’

The Indian, offended, replied: ‘My brother, it seems your friends have not done you justice in your education; they have not well instructed you in the rules of common civility. You saw that we, who understand and practise those rules, believed all your stories; why do you refuse to believe ours?”

- Benjamin Franklin, Remarks Concerning the Savages

TL;DR: "One man's obsession is another's tuna casserole."
-Vampire:The Masquerade-Bloodlines

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 2:38pm

Post #154 of 167 (2947 views)
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     You misunderstand completely [In reply to]  

He wanted to prove something to me from a source which I don't believe is true. Even though I agree naturally tat he has the rite to bring evidence from his choosing, from a technical stand point he will not achieve his objective which is to convince me since that source has no value for me.

I hope that this is clear now…

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/


Na Vedui
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 2:38pm

Post #155 of 167 (2922 views)
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     That's a good anecdote!// [In reply to]  



Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 2:55pm

Post #156 of 167 (2946 views)
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     Well [In reply to]  

He didn't care for my quotes from the Tanakh and the Talmud either, so I suspect it's the message rather than the source.

I wager that if I came up with a quote from the New Testament (or Tolkien for that matter) that he agreed with he'd embrace it wholeheartedly.

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 13 2014, 3:10pm)


SaulComposer
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 3:03pm

Post #157 of 167 (2949 views)
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     To Daniel [In reply to]  

Your post has best described my displeasure at seeing people turn a fictional fantasy story to more then it should be. Your description has turned Tolkien and his writings to some kind of a religious authority where you drew your inspiration and set your life and direction based on it. My entire contention was about this. People in my opinion need to follow their religions whatever they may be, and stop worshiping a tale and its author. For this kind of infatuation is only proper when its directed towards God, and not to any mortal human being, no matter how talented and significant.

You say that Tolkien has been the greatest force of delight in your mind. I say that this approach is very limited, have you been around? have you dwelled within the deep insights and secrets of the Bible? Have you completely understood, these stories of the Bible? Of Abraham and Sarah, of Jacob and his brother Esau? of Joseph and his brothers, of Moses in Egypt, of King David and King Solomon? even if one would live a million years and study 24 hours a day he would still not diminish from the wealth of what he can learn, cause its endless, you will not be able to finish learning the Bible because there are many layers of understanding, each layer goes deeper and deeper, each letter is a world of itself. Each letter in the Bible is composed of other letters, and each one of them is a window to a greater understanding and knowledge. Why be busy with a mortal's tale when you can be busy with the words of the Living God?

And the Prophet Jeremiah speaks out about this and says : "Be appalled at this, you heavens, and shudder with great horror," declares the Lord, For my people have done two evil things: They have abandoned me--the fountain of living water. And they have dug for themselves cracked cisterns that can hold no water at all! "…Jeremiah 2:12/13

Why would anyone want to leave the source of knowledge and understanding, the source of wisdom and intellect, and instead draw his inspiration and other benefits from the vastly inferior source?
Why not drink from the well of God? Why choose as Jeremiah said : "And they have dug for themselves cracked cisterns that can hold no water at all' ?

Even Tolkien found his inspirations from the Bible, then why not enjoy his tale, and move on to the source of light and wisdom and be obsessed with the source instead of the imitation?

http://www.sauldzorelashvili.com/

(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Feb 13 2014, 3:17pm)


Rimmirath
Registered User


Feb 13 2014, 3:12pm

Post #158 of 167 (2930 views)
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     This discussion is very interesting... [In reply to]  

I am new here but I would like to join in. In my opinion this discussion for some is comparing apples to oranges. The OP implied that it is wrong to put so much effort into Tolkien's literature because it is fantasy. He uses Holy texts to draw from to prove his point. Tolkien in my opinion is the greatest literature I have ever read. I am an atheist so the Old Testament for me is also literature but on a different level because it is a sacred text to so many and for so long. Tolkien never meant for his story to have such an effect on those that read it. I think he would have maybe been appalled since he was himself very religious. It is my understanding that the OP thinks that the time spent on Tolkien should instead be used to pursue God's teachings to that only Truth.
How can an individual possibly argue that point? So many here have shared wonderful stories of how Tolkien has helped them in their lives. I could share some too. But to a very religious person it may sound hollow. Sort of sad because I believe these people have really been helped in amazing ways. I do believe that the OP may have meant to help but instead has insulted a few, but this is just my opinion. Tolkien's writings are not Holy text but I do love them so dearly and deeply and always will, without any guilt no matter who says I am wrong to do so.
I cannot compare Tolkien to any religious experience so for me this discussion is like comparing apples to oranges.
I really love this place...so much Tolkien goodness.


Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Feb 13 2014, 3:58pm

Post #159 of 167 (2911 views)
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     extremely clear [In reply to]  

He brought in to the (increasingly inaccurately misnamed ) discussion, something that you don't believe in. It cannot be part of the conversation because you do not believe and therefore will automatically reject it as false. Interesting.

Yup, I think I get it now.

Everyone else get it too?

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings







Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2014, 4:02pm

Post #160 of 167 (2882 views)
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     Welcome Rimmirath! // [In reply to]  

 

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2014, 4:03pm

Post #161 of 167 (2884 views)
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     Indeed my dear! [In reply to]  

Have some more seed-cake. Cool

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2014, 4:16pm

Post #162 of 167 (2910 views)
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     I simply must say Darkstone [In reply to]  

your uncanny skill in finding just the right words always makes your posts a pleasure to find and read. Thank you. Angelic

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2014, 4:18pm

Post #163 of 167 (2882 views)
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     Thanks to you too Daniel [In reply to]  

I loved your post.
And thanks to all who have written such eloquent opinions in this thread. You make TORn what it is.
Cool

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 4:20pm

Post #164 of 167 (2902 views)
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     You completely missed what I was getting at. [In reply to]  

I don't worship Tolkien. I don't worship anyone or anything (mortal, immortal or otherwise). I simply explained why I love Tolkien, and what his stories and tales mean to me. Each to their own, and there when needed.

A very wise user once said:

"Life moves on, whether we want it to or not - but you can take the best bits with you, and Middle-earth always goes with me."

And that's what I intend to do. Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. I will enjoy what I find satisfactory.

Smile



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Feb 13 2014, 4:29pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 5:52pm

Post #165 of 167 (2884 views)
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     You badly misrepresent Frodo in your passage [In reply to]  


In Reply To

In Reply To


Quote
Frodo was nothing more then someone who didn't care for riches and diamonds and gold and things like that because he was a peasant, living in a hole, why does he need precious stones, or power? his life style runs oblique to the world street life style where competition is intense, and the urge to gather wealth is enormous. You take a peasant with fury feet and you give him a ring that he doesn't care about, and everything that the ring offers, he has no desire or ambition for, therefore he was the least to be influenced by it, and that's simple.




You know, now that I see how you've missed the entire point of the book, I can see why you "moved on".

The only so-called "peasant" in the story was Samwise Gamgee, and he was far more than that at heart. You are correct that hobbits did not desire power (which the Ring represented) but that does not mean that the hobbits who were part of the Quest were ignorant of the Ring's importance--but they were also aware of its relative unimportance relative to things of true importance: freedom, friendship, and doing the right thing to provide the peace and safety of others.


Even if I got the 'point' that you wanted me to get, I would have moved on anyways, cause there is no real point with getting stuck with the tale in an obsessive manner. I still like and enjoy it, but that's way different from thinking about it constantly, I think that this is a good balance



Your understanding of Frodo's social position is extremely lacking. Frodo was not a peasant, nor was his Hobbit-hole the equivalent of a hovel. It was closer to an English country estate--warm, comfortable and very well-appointed. Frodo was well-off, even wealthy. Bilbo at the time of his birthday party had many friends and social contacts. His party was the social event of the year--maybe of the century.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 13 2014, 6:05pm

Post #166 of 167 (2856 views)
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     The Torah [In reply to]  


In Reply To
These statements from the Christian Bible have not value for me cause I don't believe in them. If you want to prove something for me, please do so from sources that are of value to me, which is the Hebrew Bible, or any other Sacred Jewish writings…

Some may argue then why do I use sources from the Hebrew Bible to validate my points, I do so because Christians consider the Hebrew Bible holy, but Jews don't believe in the Christian Bible…

And those who are atheists wouldn't care so much for either, because they simply don't believe in God, so naturally these statements were not directed at them…



Yet you ascribe the philosophy of "turn the other cheek" to the Hebraic Bible even though it is clearly from The New Testament. Such egregious errors make it very difficult to take you seriously.

Btw, a rite is a liturgy or ceremony. You are confusing it with right. Illiteracy does not help get your point across.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2014, 6:22pm

Post #167 of 167 (2921 views)
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     ***NOTE: This thread is being locked. [In reply to]  

It's been degenerating...and although there are many good points brought up here, it's been decided that it's time to close off discussion.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"





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