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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Unfinished Tales Discussion: The History of Celeborn and Galadriel
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CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 6:27pm

Post #51 of 125 (242 views)
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Pragmatism [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you can do something you know is wrong for pragmatic reasons. I agree with you and Mikah that Galadriel as a strategist calculated that the highest priority was the success of the Quest. If that meant invasively interrogating her guests, then that was the lesser of two evils.

Galadriel picks her words very carefully, and doesn't even want to use the word "magic," for example. So I don't take it lightly when she says to Frodo, when he offers her the Ring, "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting." She not only says "revenge," which is something you seek when you are wronged, she makes it sound like he has a right to seek it, and she even compliments him for going about it "gently." I think she felt a certain guilt about what she did. I find her intimacy with and support for Frodo at the Mirror episode to be her own resolution of having tested him at the beginning.

So while I think Boromir was right to call it wrong, and I would not want my mind invaded by anyone, in the big picture, I don't think this made Galadriel a bad person, and she had justification for acting drastically. Gandalf was dead, Saruman was a traitor, the only person in the Fellowship she knew was Aragorn, she knew nothing of hobbits, Boromir was from the Rohan-Gondor group of Men who were unfairly suspicious of/hostile to her, and then walking through her front door is the Ring that was meant to control her own mind and corrupt everything that she had built with her own Ring. Plenty of grounds for consternation!

For a comparison of "one wrong makes a right," I think of Faramir telling Frodo that Gollum must die for having discovered Henneth Annun. Frodo's only option to save Gollum is to lie to him and betray him into captivity. Frodo did the "wrong" thing there, but it was necessary.

I don't mean to to venture too far into a debate on morality, just trying to clarify my thoughts on Galadriel.


CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 6:46pm

Post #52 of 125 (239 views)
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Aragorn vs. Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

RE: "The feminist revolution has impacted all of us, and having a strong female character appeals to our sensibilities. It has also an additional advantage of helping Tolkien's image in our eyes as fans. Tolkien has been bashed by the outside world of literati as a xenophobe, classist, reactionary, and even misogynist. Indeed, The Hobbit is comletely female-free, except for the late and lamented Belladonna; Arwen is a pretty princess, and even Eowyn starts as a rebel but finally sttles down for a good marriage - but we do have Galadriel! No wonder she enjoys such a popularity."

Excellent point, Sador, and good to remind me of this. Yes, we do have Galadriel!! It made me think about my views on Aragorn. Yes, he's a hero, but one of many male heroes in the book, and not anyone that stands out the way that Galadriel does. She's sort of a rose blossoming in a desert rather than in a garden: the contrast with her surroundings (lack of other women leaders) makes her all the more fascinating. I can talk and talk about Galadriel and want to read more and more of her backstory, but I don't have the same fascination for Aragorn, though both of them loom over the entire LOTR landscape.

Something that complicates my appreciation of her is the Big Hero/Underdog tension in LOTR. You get obvious, Big Heroes like Gandalf and Aragorn, then Underdogs like the hobbits who do heroic things. Galadriel seems to be a little of both (Luthien too): born to power, pretty, smart, confident, yet a gender underdog (if that term exists; if not, I want the patent). Being a little of both archetypes is a rare thing, and what is rare is valuable.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 6 2014, 6:47pm

Post #53 of 125 (282 views)
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Christopher's views were very different than his fathers [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher certainly was well-situated to publish his father's work after his death, given the long history that he had as the most attentive audience to The Hobbit, close collaborator on LOTR, youngest member of the Inklings, Christopher's own academic background similar to his father's, and of course most importantly, Tolkien's own wishes expressed in his will. But there is also no question that Christopher's views on religion were very, very different than his father's. In a letter to Michael Tolkien published in Letters he expressed profound disappointment about his children turning away from the Roman Catholic church, without being more specific. But in an unpublished letter that was auctioned by Christies a couple of years ago, he more specifically expressed dismay at Christopher’s leaving the Church, and particularly about his divorce from his first wife (see http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5210971&sid=66d5002a-4bc4-464a-8c9b-47091f3318ed). I have little doubt that this influenced his work editing his father's writings.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 11:17pm

Post #54 of 125 (221 views)
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Happy TORNversary, Brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I missed it by a week (Jan 24). Happy 1-year on TORN (under that moniker), and many happy returns!


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 7 2014, 2:07am

Post #55 of 125 (212 views)
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Perhaps.... [In reply to] Can't Post

If we view it from a Pro-Galadriel veiwpoint, perhaps we could say that she might have married him in an effort to find peace and fulfillment in Middle-Earth. By that time she had suffered so much loss, and maybe she wanted to have some constancy and continuity in her life. Now this doesn't have any factual basis, but it doesn't necessarily diminish Celeborn either.

Just a thought...

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 2:25am

Post #56 of 125 (211 views)
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Thank you, thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I may not like monkeys half as well as they deserve...or maybe its ice cream. No I like that more than it deserves.
Thanks!!! A fun year!!!! Much in part to monkeys and ice cream. LaughWink

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 7 2014, 2:25am)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Feb 7 2014, 3:21am

Post #57 of 125 (200 views)
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Wait, do you have a secret identity?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 








Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 3:36am

Post #58 of 125 (197 views)
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(*shoves cape under chair*) No secret identity - but some forgotten ones! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have had 2 other nicks over the years, starting in 2001. One I would swear had to do with nightingales. But I just can't remember them! So I signed up fresh with this one after lurking off and on for a few years and after AUJ was released.
I actually had our dear Magpie (who is a wizard at Finding Things) track down one of Anwyn's columns relating to a member who said they would gladly steal some of Tom Hanks' Oscars for ROTK if it didn't win any (yes, that was me) partly because I wanted to read it (who doesn't like to laugh about nutty things like breaking into stars' homes to steal Oscars?) but partly because I thought I was e-mailing her under a nick versus my name. But nope! No old nick revealed, I was using my name. (Glad no one DID steal any Oscars from Tom that year...)
I like this one best though I think! Its been a lovely year with lovely folks. Cool

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 5:10am

Post #59 of 125 (207 views)
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Testing, testing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Galadriel picks her words very carefully, and doesn't even want to use the word "magic," for example. So I don't take it lightly when she says to Frodo, when he offers her the Ring, "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting." She not only says "revenge," which is something you seek when you are wronged, she makes it sound like he has a right to seek it, and she even compliments him for going about it "gently." I think she felt a certain guilt about what she did. I find her intimacy with and support for Frodo at the Mirror episode to be her own resolution of having tested him at the beginning.

Nice use of the interactions here. I always loved that bit at the Mirror, because in so much other fantasy the Queen would never take the little guy seriously. She does: because he DID pass her test, probably beyond what she ever expected by offering her the Ring. She may have felt guilt, but I'm not sure...it seems more like it is mere awareness of how it might be perceived. Certainly she has enough confidence to cast some humor into it. But you are right in that it brings their dynamic sort of full circle, even though Frodo's 'test' is done in innocence.


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 7 2014, 5:50am

Post #60 of 125 (203 views)
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I would say more on this subject [In reply to] Can't Post

but looking into a sink full of water today, I beheld the Reading Room discussing Lord of the Rings in the not-too-distant future, so I'll try to stay on-topic and UTish for now. Essentially, I think you're right that at the Mirror, she's using her non-heavy-handed perceptive gift on Frodo (and she likes what she sees).


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 6:01am

Post #61 of 125 (212 views)
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Some random Mary and Galadriel thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.
I think to truly understand the parallels one would need to comprehend who exactly Mary is and what she means to the Catholic religion. I must confess, that although I am a practicing Christian, I am not Catholic and do not profess to know how Catholics view Mary. But this really is most profound and does help to clarify some things for me. Thank you.
What I find interesting is the tenet in Catholicism of the Assumption of Mary, and how it might have been on JRRT's mind: after the course of her life she is taken to heaven while still in body. In its way, once the Blessed Realm was removed from the circles of the world and the Straight Road became the way, we can almost regard every Elf heading West after that point as an Assumption of sorts. They proceed to 'heaven' (a place at this point removed from Arda) while living. A stretch I think of the tenet but not of the philosophical in a fantasy realm; and not quite directly allegorical either. In which case I wonder if Galadriel's prolonged penitence also lends her 'taking ship' a rather more important and iconic (I keep using that word...I hope it means what I think it meansLaugh) place in the events of the Third Age. The spiritual mother of the hope of Men and his line departing in body to the faerie/heavenly realm as the Age of Men begins.

Some of the direct allegory is altered. Galadriel is not 'pure' in an earthly sense per se. She is a living, breathing, wedded Elfwoman who had natural children. She also had some failings of pride (at the latest portrait) yet when confronted with the closest to Evil and the chance to usurp the gods, (in the form of the Ring) she refused it. So a latent purity, and an earned purity? Versus the Biblical naturally pure and not-proud nature of Mary?



Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 7 2014, 6:01am)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 2:50pm

Post #62 of 125 (202 views)
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Posting Clarity [In reply to] Can't Post

Brethil, it is helpful to keep your comments outside of the original quote. Like so:


In Reply To

In Reply To

Galadriel picks her words very carefully, and doesn't even want to use the word "magic," for example. So I don't take it lightly when she says to Frodo, when he offers her the Ring, "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting." She not only says "revenge," which is something you seek when you are wronged, she makes it sound like he has a right to seek it, and she even compliments him for going about it "gently." I think she felt a certain guilt about what she did. I find her intimacy with and support for Frodo at the Mirror episode to be her own resolution of having tested him at the beginning.



Nice use of the interactions here. I always loved that bit at the Mirror, because in so much other fantasy the Queen would never take the little guy seriously. She does: because he DID pass her test, probably beyond what she ever expected by offering her the Ring. She may have felt guilt, but I'm not sure...it seems more like it is mere awareness of how it might be perceived. Certainly she has enough confidence to cast some humor into it. But you are right in that it brings their dynamic sort of full circle, even though Frodo's 'test' is done in innocence.



It helps keep clear what is being quoted and what is the reply.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


elf-lady
Rivendell

Feb 7 2014, 3:15pm

Post #63 of 125 (191 views)
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Thank you everyone... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for your insightful questions and responses. I don't have anything to offer towards the discussion but rest assured that I'm reading and enjoying! I'll bet there are many other lurkers like me in these threads. Carry one! Wink


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 4:29pm

Post #64 of 125 (186 views)
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Clarity with new browser. An issue! [In reply to] Can't Post

It does seem to be an issue! I agree O-S, I like to write below the quote box line but using IE (I just don't like how the site looks in Chrome for everyday use) which 'updated' when I got my new laptop...and now won't let me navigate below the line! I agree that its clearer. I have been relying on using bold and plain text.
Crazy Not sure what the fix is, as I am so used to this appearance and function I don't want to change browsers again. (I really only liked Chrome when we did the Bracket Voting because then I got all the vote boxes.)

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 4:51pm

Post #65 of 125 (177 views)
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Yes, your dish-water tells you much CG [In reply to] Can't Post

We will be able to have a wonderful and contextual chat on the Mirror scene and the arrival in Lorien once FOTR kicks off (July everyone! FYI!)

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 7 2014, 4:53pm

Post #66 of 125 (167 views)
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And thank you for your comments, elf-lady! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's always good to hear from people who are following the discussion.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 4:55pm

Post #67 of 125 (166 views)
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Glad to have you around Elf-lady! [In reply to] Can't Post

As CG says it is nice to know people are following along with the discussions. Cool

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 7 2014, 5:05pm

Post #68 of 125 (169 views)
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Two things to try [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had that problem getting the cursor below the line, and the fix I've found is to briefly switch to the Basic Editor, go to the very bottom of the text there and hit Enter a couple of times. When you go back to the Advanced Editor, those new lines are under the Quote box where the cursor can get at them.

But the more flexible solution that I mostly use is to just copy and paste text from the message I'm replying to, then highlight it and use the Quote button in the toolbar to mark it as a quote. (Again, it might not be possible to navigate below the quote, but in this case all you have to do is hit Enter a couple of times before you hit the Quote button - a habit it doesn't take long to get into!)

(If you ever do want to change browsers again, my recommendation would be Firefox. It's better than any other I've tried for not losing what you've already typed if any mishap occurs. Site format and functionality are great too!)

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 7 2014, 5:11pm

Post #69 of 125 (162 views)
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Mary as intercessor re: Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

While I'm not Catholic, I'm aware enough of Catholic views of Mary that she can intercede with God on behalf of people who pray to her. If Tolkien wanted Galadriel to be Mary-like, that posed a huge problem, because she couldn't ask for favors from the Valar for mortals or Elves while under their ban.

But (and I'm leaping ahead to LOTR again), the light of the Silmarils is hallowed by Varda, and Galadriel takes that light from Earendil's Silmaril and puts it in her Phial for Frodo, which aids him not just by being powerful, but by enabling him to speak Elvish words of power that he doesn't understand, as if he is indeed channeling *someone* or *some power.* Tolkien doesn't clarify the experience, but it comes at a time of supreme desperation when divine intervention is the only hope left. So Galadriel does seem like an intercessor even with a ban blighting her name.

With Tolkien writing LOTR first, he then continued to rework Galadriel behind the scenes to be more Mary-like, and maybe his sense of logic forced him to come up with her leaving Valinor separately from Feanor and caught unfairly in the great exile and having not been in any fight, because how else could he scrub her record clean and really make the comparison with a saint?


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 5:20pm

Post #70 of 125 (166 views)
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Freedom! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've had that problem getting the cursor below the line, and the fix I've found is to briefly switch to the Basic Editor, go to the very bottom of the text there and hit Enter a couple of times. When you go back to the Advanced Editor, those new lines are under the Quote box where the cursor can get at them.

But the more flexible solution that I mostly use is to just copy and paste text from the message I'm replying to, then highlight it and use the Quote button in the toolbar to mark it as a quote. (Again, it might not be possible to navigate below the quote, but in this case all you have to do is hit Enter a couple of times before you hit the Quote button - a habit it doesn't take long to get into!)

(If you ever do want to change browsers again, my recommendation would be Firefox. It's better than any other I've tried for not losing what you've already typed if any mishap occurs. Site format and functionality are great too
!)


LOL. Thank you FFH! The Basic Editor idea works nicely! (Hooray! I'm freed from the quote box!!! *in Smeagols' voice*) Oh this feels much better.
CoolAngelic

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 5:26pm

Post #71 of 125 (156 views)
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Life changes and Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

With Tolkien writing LOTR first, he then continued to rework Galadriel behind the scenes to be more Mary-like, and maybe his sense of logic forced him to come up with her leaving Valinor separately from Feanor and caught unfairly in the great exile and having not been in any fight, because how else could he scrub her record clean and really make the comparison with a saint?




I agree CG. And also as he aged his ideas may have become more liturgical concerning Galadriel? He certainly changes after the death of Edith and I wonder if he isn't looking towards the next world as opposed to his often very sublimely optimistic way of living in the day and appreciating life. I get the feeling that his own taste of the Gift of Men after Edith dies is a bit like Arwen's: bitter to receive.
I agree too that her early arc has to change if that more Mary-like conclusion is to be reached. Requires some yanking of the strings in the literary crocheting.

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Feb 7 2014, 5:51pm

Post #72 of 125 (157 views)
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Holy light, Holy Spirit? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But (and I'm leaping ahead to LOTR again), the light of the Silmarils is hallowed by Varda, and Galadriel takes that light from Earendil's Silmaril and puts it in her Phial for Frodo, which aids him not just by being powerful, but by enabling him to speak Elvish words of power that he doesn't understand, as if he is indeed channeling *someone* or *some power.* Tolkien doesn't clarify the experience, but it comes at a time of supreme desperation when divine intervention is the only hope left. So Galadriel does seem like an intercessor even with a ban blighting her name.

If Eru is God the Father, Olorin is a Christ figure, and Galadriel is Mary, could the light represent Holy Spirit? Giving strength and blessings to the faithful who call out for help?


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2014, 6:09pm

Post #73 of 125 (158 views)
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Intercession [In reply to] Can't Post

When you bring this idea up CG, my first thought was after Galadriel's Lament in Lorien, saying goodbye to the Fellowship: "Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar. Maybe though shalt find Valimar! Maybe even thou shalt find it. Farewell!" It feels like (though CT says he believed this was written without the idea of the Ban - yet personally, I feel it in her words) this is the groundwork for the idea that follows, the gift of healing that Frodo is given to travel West. So the word 'intercession' really seems to fit here.

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!





CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 7 2014, 6:27pm

Post #74 of 125 (149 views)
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Curses! It will take us Ages to box you up again! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 7 2014, 6:30pm

Post #75 of 125 (146 views)
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Perfect! You're right on there. [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally forgot her farewell song to Frodo, but religious or not, I've always felt like she was making some poignant appeal on his behalf, even "praying" he can find a way to Valinor when she cannot.

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