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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Could the intercutting of the film's two cliffhangers (Smaug and Dol Guldur) at the end of DOS have produced a stronger finale?

The Grey Pilgrim
Lorien


Feb 6 2014, 7:19pm

Post #1 of 12 (547 views)
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Could the intercutting of the film's two cliffhangers (Smaug and Dol Guldur) at the end of DOS have produced a stronger finale? Can't Post

I am referring of course to what is in fact the ending of the movie and also the scene where Gandalf sees Sauron's forces depart. I can't help but think the end of DOS leaves the viewer a little cold. I know the intent and the tension is great, it just leaves me so incomplete (which I guess is the point but it's maddening.) I've seen it almost a dozen times now and I always have the same reaction after "What have we done?" It's just such a tease. I love the part during the Inside Information part of the film in Erebor between Bilbo and Smaug where Smaug says "The Darkness is coming, it will spread to every corner of the land," and we cut to Gandalf imprisoned seeing the vast armies of the dark lord Sauron marching out toward our heroes. I can't help but thinking having Smaug flying off and seeing Bilbo's tortured reaction then cutting to Gandalf to reinforce that he is in fact still an active participant at the end of this story and thus inter cutting Smaug's death flight toward Laketown with the army marching from Dol Guldur would have sent the tension through the roof. I know if the lights went off when seeing that Army depart and knowing Smaug is going simultaneouly, I would've gotten goosebumps. Both provide equal amounts of tension but I think leaving Gandalf out of the last 20 minutes or so of the film was a mistake and overall some method of inter cutting the two cliffhangers would have worked more; at least in my eyes.

Though "I am Fire...I am Death." is pretty powerful stuff Wink

Just an idea. Any thoughts on how you would've ended DOS, if any differently at all?

Also, this is my 100th post yay ToRn, finally! Smile (only took 3 years!) Tongue


(This post was edited by The Grey Pilgrim on Feb 6 2014, 7:22pm)


BlackFox
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 7:59pm

Post #2 of 12 (290 views)
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Hm... Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the ending (a lot), but now when you brought this up... I think you're right - it might have been even cooler this way! Even more intense.

PS. Congrats on your 100th post! Wink

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere." - Albert Einstein

(This post was edited by BlackFox on Feb 6 2014, 8:01pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 8:31pm

Post #3 of 12 (258 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

I really really think AUJ and DoS are very very good movies (DoS more so). And I am a fan of the three movie version.

And I will be fine with the end of DoS even more once we have TABA. But as a standalone movie it would have worked better imho like this:



- have basically the DoS version but with a shorter Smaug/Dwarves thing with Smaug getting annoyed faster and then becoming the sadist who wants to hurt them even more by destroying Laketown. Also make Legolas vs. Bolg shorter and earlier during the night, as well as Kili's healing.

- use the additional time by having Gandalf facing the Nine after Azog and before Sauron. This would give the High Fells - the weakest of all scenes in both movies imho - more purpose and make the Gandalf storyline a real second climax (Sauron vs. Gandalf is my favourite scene but comes and goes so quickly).


ďAll good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


NoelGallagher
Rohan


Feb 6 2014, 9:46pm

Post #4 of 12 (208 views)
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hm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I really really think AUJ and DoS are very very good movies (DoS more so). And I am a fan of the three movie version.

And I will be fine with the end of DoS even more once we have TABA. But as a standalone movie it would have worked better imho like this:



- have basically the DoS version but with a shorter Smaug/Dwarves thing with Smaug getting annoyed faster and then becoming the sadist who wants to hurt them even more by destroying Laketown. Also make Legolas vs. Bolg shorter and earlier during the night, as well as Kili's healing.

- use the additional time by having Gandalf facing the Nine after Azog and before Sauron. This would give the High Fells - the weakest of all scenes in both movies imho - more purpose and make the Gandalf storyline a real second climax (Sauron vs. Gandalf is my favourite scene but comes and goes so quickly).


I know the cutting of the Fells isnt well done but the weakest scene ?! Why ?!
I definitely go for the Stone Giants,
The shot of Gandalf climbing the stairs combined with the dramatic music is great and i love the conversation outside the tombs between Radagast and Gandalf ! The rushed cutting removes the great feeling that scene truly deserves...


(This post was edited by NoelGallagher on Feb 6 2014, 9:47pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 10:10pm

Post #5 of 12 (190 views)
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Hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

While the Stone Giants just feel like a bit over-indulgance to me, the High Fells imho serve no real purpose, create unnecessary canon and geographic issues (in the sense of the scene not even being necessary for the changed story they tell without the Nazgul actually playing a role in DoS) and are edited in a weird way. The Nazgul will probably play a role in TABA and give that scene a purpose... however, in DoS, it feels imho like a scene that leads nowhere... Gandalf is already pretty certain he deals with Sauron before. Since he does not take any additional procautions after he learns about the Nine, why not go to DG in the first place and confirm Sauron's return?

But just my opinion :)


ďAll good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


macfalk
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 11:02pm

Post #6 of 12 (194 views)
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For me, High Fells is not even close to being the weakest scene in the TH films [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's a cool scene with nice visuals. And I think it did serve a bit of a purpose as a tease for the Nazgul.

As for the weakest scenes in the TH movies, my top 3 list in order:

1. Tauriel healing Kili, and Kili's cheesy speech (actually, the "Do you think she could have loved me" part annoys me more than the Arwen-glow of Tauriel... because it felt so very off.)
2. Stone-giants (because it reminds everyone of Transformers... and this comes from someone who has never watched a Transformers-movie,)
3. The Great Goblin's song (EE only)



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Feb 6 2014, 11:05pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 6 2014, 11:09pm

Post #7 of 12 (172 views)
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Well, I do not really care about the ranking here. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just wanted to say that I would have preferred the Nazgul being included in the DG finale of DoS which imho would also have added substantially to the High Fells purpose and the general plot.

Just to get back on topic ;)


ďAll good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 7 2014, 8:17am

Post #8 of 12 (118 views)
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A stronger finale to DOS but weaker opening to TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

The finale of DOS was good enough IMO. I would rather we had one huge evil (Smaug) and one tiny evil (Bolg) rather than two huge evils (Sauron and Smaug) being intercut. It shifts the focus to Smaug and how he is the greater danger.

The opening of TABA should be fantastic.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Beorn's Bees
Rivendell

Feb 7 2014, 11:39am

Post #9 of 12 (94 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that I think a about it, that would be a hell of a cliffhanger! Such tension!


BalrogTrainer
Rivendell

Feb 7 2014, 1:49pm

Post #10 of 12 (88 views)
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I think the ending to this film... [In reply to] Can't Post

... was always going to be tricky. If they end with Smaug being killed, it would've likely fed the fire for those already crying CASH GRAB!! since it was announced these movies would be expanded into a trilogy... and those not familiar with the book would wonder what's left to tell in the third film. The only other option was what we got, really -- a bunch of cliffhangers. It was a catch-22.
BTW, does the "I am death" line remind anyone else of John Cleese as the Grim Reaper in Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life"? Wink


(This post was edited by BalrogTrainer on Feb 7 2014, 1:56pm)


burgahobbit
Rohan


Feb 7 2014, 9:55pm

Post #11 of 12 (54 views)
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Excellent idea [In reply to] Can't Post

That would have been fantastic!


Twenty seconds of marching orcs, with Howard Shore music building up tension, and then...cut to black.


I know they were trying to keep the ending of the story focused on the Erebor plot, but IMO this would have been a much more satisfying cliffhanger (as well as a literal one for Gandalf), simply because we know that its going to take a long time for those orcs to reach the mountain, and we know that there is going to be a huge battle. Obviously after two and a half hours of film, we are not ready for that at this moment. I would have left the theater pumped thinking, "Oh boy, next year is going to be great!" And I think the rest of theater would have too, instead of thinking "Really? That's it?" it would just be "Wow!"


With Smaug, everyone who's read the books know that Smaug is just one action sequence away from his death, and we just want to see it now.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because Iím afraid, and he gives me courage.Ē - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Feb 7 2014, 9:56pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Gondor

Feb 8 2014, 3:36am

Post #12 of 12 (44 views)
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Well I thought it was fine [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen it three times, and the first time was rather jarring, BUT I don't think it could have ended any other way. I can't agree that having the army marching out of Dol Goldur would have been a better place to end. Smaug's attack on Laketown will happen at the beginning of TABA, whereas the marching army will happen closer to the end. As for Legolas chasing Bolg, really don't care about any of that. Some have speculated that it was necessary to get Legolas out of Laketown, so that Bard would be the only archer to kill Smaug (don't know where Tauriel will be at this point, hopefully following Legolas), but really, of all the events that one just really doesn't matter. Possibly because I know that he's going to survive & be in the Fellowship, same with Gandalf, yes of course he'll survive. But I suppose it's possible that Tauriel or one of the nephews will die in Laketown, certainly alot of people will, so I do think it's the best cliffhanger.

"What have we done?" Yeah, best place to end it.

 
 

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