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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Gandalf leaving the company at the edge of Mirkwood

macfalk
Valinor


Feb 5 2014, 11:17pm

Post #1 of 19 (726 views)
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Gandalf leaving the company at the edge of Mirkwood Can't Post

Something I wonder, with all the debate about this scene and that it was apparantly re-written to move the High Fells scene from AUJ to DOS: Let's say the High Fells part was in AUJ, what was the original plan for Gandalf's leaving? Galadriel saying "Go to Dol Guldur" instead of "Go to the tombs in the mountain"? Or, would he like in the book, tell the company that he would not follow them into the forest, at Carrock?



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Feb 5 2014, 11:25pm)


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 5 2014, 11:31pm

Post #2 of 19 (399 views)
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confusing [In reply to] Can't Post

your question? is quite confusing, especially since this whole scene is quite confusing, and the reasons and execution of this scene is also quite confusing.so expanding on something that didnt happen is too much for me lol


what im saying is i think this whole fells, dol guldor subplot is not written well. again another reason why keeping these films simpler would have worked better.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


macfalk
Valinor


Feb 5 2014, 11:35pm

Post #3 of 19 (390 views)
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I'll try to simplify it. [In reply to] Can't Post

So in the book, Gandalf tells the dwarves and Bilbo that he has to leave and cannot follow them into Mirkwood because of pressing business with the Necromancer. In DOS,he left to investigate the tombs in Rhudaur instead, a sequence that was intented for AUJ (which would take place while the dwarves were captured in Goblin-town). Meaning, the original plan was probably that Gandalf would go straight to Dol Guldur after saying farewell to the dwarves - my question is how they would have handled it? More Galadriel telepathy/flashbacks or would he just make up his mind before they came to the edge of Mirkwood?



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Feb 5 2014, 11:37pm)


Bladerunner
Gondor


Feb 5 2014, 11:39pm

Post #4 of 19 (378 views)
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one possibility.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that Radagast was originally meant to intercept Gandalf at the eaves of Mirkwood instead of after the Trollshaws.
Geographically and chronologically that would have made more sense especially since Rhosgobel is next to Mirkwood.
If so that would also mean that Radagast was origianlly not intended to serve as a decoy for the Orc pack.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 5 2014, 11:46pm

Post #5 of 19 (368 views)
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More Confusion [In reply to] Can't Post

If film-Gandalf was originally intending to stay with the company all the way to Erebor then how could Bilbo be their 14th member? Gandalf would have been #14, making the hobbit the 15th member. So much for "Lucky Number".

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bladerunner
Gondor


Feb 6 2014, 1:55am

Post #6 of 19 (302 views)
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Interesting point... [In reply to] Can't Post

Book-Gandalf's role and perspective (the original Book-Gandalf that is ;0) feels better realized than film-Gandalf's.

It's a little difficult to explain, but I mean in the sense that Book-Gandalf has a much better handle on the Dol Guldur situation.
He accompanies the dwarves far enough to provide support and guidance, but in the end also has his own motivations and agenda to fulfill.
Tolkien's Gandalf comes across as more aware of important things, a better planner, and behaving more Wizardly.
He's performing the duty for which he had been sent by the Valar to perform.

Film-Gandalf seems to be more reactive and a step behind concerning the goings-on in Dol Guldur.
The film's real-time reveal of the Dol Guldur menace may be more dramatic than the book's version, but Tolkien's version of events, including Gandalf's understanding of the situation, provides more complexity and feels better realized.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 6 2014, 2:33am

Post #7 of 19 (290 views)
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I'd disagree... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not that film-Gandalf is less with it, it is that in the book, this all takes place on a completely different time scale. It is not unreasonable that film Gandalf is unaware of the seriousness of what is happening in Dol Guldur. Greenwood the Great is rather recently and suddenly turning into Mirkwood, something that happened centuries ago in the book.



arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 6 2014, 2:39am

Post #8 of 19 (289 views)
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My thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think what you propose would have worked well - Gandalf going to the High Fells in AUJ, then rescuing the Dwarves fom Goblintown on his way across the mountains (that he would need to cross anyway, to arrive at Dol Guldur).

Actually I think it would have been clearer if it had been handled so in DoS also. Gandalf could have explained he had business of his own to take care of (and have had that be a visit to the High Fells). "Explain" I think is the key thing missing here!



Bladerunner
Gondor


Feb 6 2014, 3:13am

Post #9 of 19 (286 views)
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another possibility... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that an earlier version of the screenplay had Gandalf becoming aware of the Necromancer during his earlier encounter with Thrain and then intending to separate from the quest at Mirkwood, as in the book.



Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 6 2014, 4:49am

Post #10 of 19 (281 views)
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The filming of the rabbit chase [In reply to] Can't Post

Was filmed in the original filming period on location I believe.

I think Beorn was to convince Gandalf (I read this in a magazine somewhere) about Dol Guldur and Gandalf would drop the company at Mirkwood then take off.


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 6 2014, 4:54am

Post #11 of 19 (264 views)
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There's not much wrong with this subplot IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

There are other problems with DOS but not the Necromancer one. Laketown orcs need more criticism to be honest.

As someone who was expecting Thrain to pop up, I felt confused by it all until my wife (who went into DOS knowing nothing and abstaining from trailers) offered a refreshing perspective.

I guess our expectations of this subplot have muddled with our understanding of it. People I have talked to said this subplot was the best part of the film while saying the Smaug and Laketown scenes were too "padded" (something I agree very little with).


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 6 2014, 5:00am

Post #12 of 19 (276 views)
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Radagast was always going to meet Gandalf at that point in AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

If you watch the behind the scenes on the AUJ EE PJ added the sequence of Radagast in Rhosgobel when they decided to do the three film split as well as the decoy for the orc pack but Radagast originally was going to meet Gandalf there. I believe instead of Gandalf going to the high fells after Mirkwood he was going to go to Rhosgobel and than bunny sled with Radagast to dol-guldur. Basically it would have played out the same way but with the high fells cut and Radagast and Gandalf arriving at dol-guldur.

 photo 1bf768b4-0b33-420d-9c59-41ea3cf03def_zps1d44c4cf.jpg


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 6 2014, 3:01pm

Post #13 of 19 (179 views)
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The' Hobbit Chronicle' books reveal the original sequence of events [In reply to] Can't Post

In AUJ:
- Radagast investigates the darkening of the Greenwood.
- Radagast intercepts Thorin & Company near Rivendell; tells Gandalf of his investigation of Dol Guldur.
- The White Council meets.
- Gandalf and Radagast investigate the High Fells while the company is captured by goblins.

In DoS:
- Gandalf (with Radagast?) leaves the company at the Eaves of Mirkwood.
- Gandalf investigates Dol Guldur and is captured by the Necromancer.

Changes include moving the High Fells to the east of the Misty Mountains; changing the timing of the investigation of the Nazgul tombs so that it follows the company's arrival at Mirkwood; having Gandalf part from the company without Radagast.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 6 2014, 3:36pm

Post #14 of 19 (151 views)
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and.... [In reply to] Can't Post

so where are the nazgul in dos? and why does that statue move in AUJ

endless loose ends....

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 6 2014, 3:48pm

Post #15 of 19 (150 views)
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I would guess... [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson is probably saving the Ringwraiths for the confrontation with the White Council in TaBA (although some were probably sent ahead to Barad-dur). The apparent movement of the statue may have been an illusion. I would have to see it again to get a clearer opinion.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 6 2014, 3:52pm

Post #16 of 19 (142 views)
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yep [In reply to] Can't Post

it is odd though how one was at dol guldor , then it wasn't with gandalf confrontation.


with the statue it sort of seem like a trick to distract radagast so the wraith could attack him from behind, but its an odd thing for a ringwraith to do, manipulate rock? its quite out of place in my opinion, at first i though it was a ringwraith hiding!

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 6 2014, 5:33pm

Post #17 of 19 (125 views)
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It was cool at first [In reply to] Can't Post

but odd in subsequent viewings.

I guess it's a visual thing? Quite inexplicable. I don't want to dismiss it as completely redundant because I do believe PJ and Co don't film things for nothing... I mean even that blade will "find its way back to its master" according to PJ.

Perhaps everything is being saved up for movie 3? It's a shame though; I wanted to see the Nazgul in action against a wizard (and not being defeated by a simply staff stroke).

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Feb 6 2014, 10:31pm

Post #18 of 19 (86 views)
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I'm curious to see how the Nazgul will be depicted..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hopefully, differently than in The Lord of the Rings, since by that time they were supposedly "disguised" as riders in black according to Saruman.



burgahobbit
Rohan


Feb 7 2014, 11:27pm

Post #19 of 19 (40 views)
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Oh man [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point...another problem is that somehow, after Gandalf tells Thorin they need a burglar, Thorin "asks him to find the fourteenth member of the company" and Gandalf has "chosen Mr. Baggins." Which means (to my ear) that according to AUJ, it was Thorin's idea that they needed someone else, which sparked Gandalf to think of Bilbo. In DOS it seems like Gandalf has the idea from the beginning.
I will try to reconcile all of the seeming inconsistencies as far as Gandalf's knowledge and plans go. First off, film Gandalf, although he is surprised when Radagast tells him about the spiders in Dol Guldur, does seem to have some idea that Sauron is returning. This is what I mean:

"He keeps a watch over the vast forest lands to the East, and a good thing too, for always evil will seek to set a foothold in this world." It sounds like he is worried that Sauron may come to Dol Guldur. "Smaug holds allegiance to no one, but if he were to side with the enemy, the dragon could be used to terrible effect." "It is also dangerous to do nothing." etc.

So since he is surprised by Radagast's news, I guess that means he was worried that Sauron was still out there, but he didn't know exactly when or where he would strike. Smaug in Erebor was a good guess.

Perhaps he meant to accompany Thorin to the Mountain in order to get Smaug out of the way, but he warned Thorin that he may be forced to leave him on the way. The conversation might have gone like this:

"I cannot pledge myself to this company; if my attention should be called to more urgent matters I will be forced to leave you immediately."

"Very well Gandalf, but...oh no; by my beard!" responds Thorin.

"What on earth is the matter?"

"I had counted on you being part of the company. If you should leave us, there will only be thirteen." Gandalf looks puzzled. "Fourteen is a lucky number, but thirteen is an ill omen to all."

Gandalf sighs and then replies, "Very well, I shall look for a fourteenth member for your company. Besides, I am not at all sure about this Nori character of yours anyway, he is not quite what I had in mind when I said that we needed a "burglar". I have an old friend, who if he is interested, will be a very valuable companion on this quest. Leave it up to me, I'll see that your thirteen members predicament is settled."

"Very good," says Thorin. "In the meantime I will talk to Warner Brothers about choosing another date to release film 2."

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because Im afraid, and he gives me courage. - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Feb 7 2014, 11:36pm)

 
 

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