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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The "Virgin Mary" comparison...

Elizabeth
Valinor


Feb 4, 5:35am


Views: 369
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The "Virgin Mary" comparison... [In reply to] Can't Post

...was first suggested by Fr. Robert Murray, a close friend, in a letter to Tolkien after he had read some galley proofs of LotR. Tolkien wrote him back (Letter# 142, 2 Dec. 1953), a letter including the much-quoted passage:

Quote
The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like "religion", to cults or practices, in the Imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

It has often been speculated that Tolkien was motivated to "rehabilitate" his rebellious and adventurous Elf as he continued to ponder Fr. Murray's suggestion. Frankly, aside from being very beautiful, she doesn't really resemble the Blessed Virgin at all. Whether she was allied with the rebels or not, she was at least married and had at least one child, in all the versions, with no suggestion of supernatural intervention.

Frankly, I like the rebellious Noldo the best.







Subject User Time
Unfinished Tales Discussion: The History of Celeborn and Galadriel Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 3, 3:47am
    I haven't really looked into this all that closely. Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Feb 3, 3:58am
        Brainstorming Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 4, 4:12am
            Tolkien's "dark lady"? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 4, 9:24pm
                Go West, Elven Lady!(?) Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Feb 5, 2:59am
                    You make an excellent point....... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 5, 8:17am
                Banned CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 5, 3:59am
                    A quote that might help FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 5, 10:19am
                        The same shadow Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 5, 7:02pm
            "In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 5, 4:31am
                Commander in Chief Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 5, 7:19pm
                    A little tricksy?? Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 6, 4:33am
                        Tricksy indeed... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 6, 4:49am
                            Pragmatism CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 6, 6:27pm
                                Testing, testing Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 5:10am
                                    I would say more on this subject CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 7, 5:50am
                                        Yes, your dish-water tells you much CG Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 4:51pm
                                    Posting Clarity Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Feb 7, 2:50pm
                                        Clarity with new browser. An issue! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 4:29pm
                                            Two things to try FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 7, 5:05pm
                                                Freedom! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 5:20pm
                                                    Curses! It will take us Ages to box you up again! // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 7, 6:27pm
                                                        No more boxes for us Precious! No! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 6:55pm
                                            My sympathy for your IE problem. Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Feb 7, 6:31pm
                                                Happily FFH got me unboxed... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 6:56pm
                            Happy TORNversary, Brethil! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 6, 11:17pm
                                Thank you, thank you! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 2:25am
                                    Wait, do you have a secret identity?// Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Feb 7, 3:21am
                                        (*shoves cape under chair*) No secret identity - but some forgotten ones! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 3:36am
    Wow!! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Feb 3, 4:27pm
        Celeborn/Thranduil....confused much? Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 4, 4:48am
            The "Virgin Mary" comparison... Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Feb 4, 5:35am
                Mary, Mary... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 4, 11:41am
            This is a wonderful chapter lead off Mikah! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 4, 8:32pm
                Slightly less confused now... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 5, 7:54am
                    Galadriel and Feanor parallels Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 5, 7:34pm
    That's the burning question demnation Send a private message to demnation Feb 3, 6:12pm
        Galadriel was the single biggest alteration that LotR made to the existing Silmarillion squire Send a private message to squire Feb 3, 8:23pm
            You summarized my feelings personally... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 4, 5:15am
                Celeborn, the wisest of the elves... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 4, 9:12pm
                    Celeborn nandorin elf Send a private message to nandorin elf Feb 5, 2:27am
                        Ah yes Nandorin! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 5, 6:57am
                            Maybe Celeborn's true wisdom is... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 5, 9:31am
                                Wise he was indeed! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 6, 3:23am
                Perhaps.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Feb 7, 2:07am
            Galadriel and Athena Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Feb 4, 2:39pm
                And wisdom simplyaven Send a private message to simplyaven Feb 5, 12:50am
        The Significance of Galdriel... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 4, 5:02am
    I have this mental image Meneldor Send a private message to Meneldor Feb 4, 4:47pm
        *Mods up*// Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Feb 4, 6:54pm
    Admittedly... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Feb 4, 7:36pm
    Well done! sador Send a private message to sador Feb 4, 7:56pm
        Thank you Sador... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 5, 7:12am
            Galadriel the slayer? Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 5, 6:49pm
                And my question to you! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 6, 4:13am
    Of Galadriel and ... who? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 5, 3:50am
        OH! You mean Celeborn! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 5, 8:35am
        Hey, who are you calling personality-free? FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 5, 10:00am
    Galadriel as chessmaster CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 5, 4:52am
        There's more. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 5, 9:50am
    "Based on 'philosophical' rather than 'historical' considerations" sador Send a private message to sador Feb 5, 4:06pm
        At first glance... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 6, 3:57am
            Correlating Galadriel and Mary Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 6, 4:20am
                Tolkien and Faith Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 6, 5:06am
                    Some random Mary and Galadriel thoughts Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 6:01am
                        Mary as intercessor re: Galadriel CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 7, 5:11pm
                            Life changes and Galadriel Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 5:26pm
                            Holy light, Holy Spirit? Meneldor Send a private message to Meneldor Feb 7, 5:51pm
                                Indirectly, I suppose CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 7, 6:43pm
                            Intercession Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 6:09pm
                                Perfect! You're right on there. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 7, 6:30pm
                                    Intercession and the Ban Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 7:03pm
                                    Just to point out. sador Send a private message to sador Feb 9, 3:18pm
                                        Or perhaps using Valimar (?) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 11, 5:24pm
                            Maybe that's a bit too literal FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 7, 7:46pm
                                Thanks for making that distinction CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 8, 12:33am
                                    Totally agree. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 8, 11:29am
                                        Exactly what I thought FFH elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Feb 8, 7:49pm
                                        I love the point about Joseph that you have made! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 8, 8:54pm
                                Interesting! Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 8, 5:11pm
                                    'if still to Frodo?' Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 8, 5:29pm
                                    Interpreting the Ban (?) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 8, 6:38pm
                                        Adding one more thought... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 8, 6:59pm
                                        Interesting.... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Feb 8, 8:02pm
                                            Pride and diminishment Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 8, 9:19pm
                                                My personal take on it is.... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Feb 8, 9:26pm
                                    My attempt to interpret the Ban FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 8, 8:25pm
                                        I can't ban the ban... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 8, 10:21pm
                                            Yes, the sticking point! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 8, 10:41pm
                                                other points of view Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 9, 12:35pm
                                                    Thanks back Elthir! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 10, 1:23am
                                            Those are great quotes. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 9, 12:22pm
                                                Very well said! Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 9, 12:29pm
                                                Excellent squire Send a private message to squire Feb 9, 2:00pm
                                                    looking for canon Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 9, 2:47pm
                                                        It makes things more confusing demnation Send a private message to demnation Feb 9, 7:00pm
                                        I do love your interpretation Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 8, 10:46pm
                                        Terrific synthesis of it all // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 9, 12:05am
            Why o why? sador Send a private message to sador Feb 6, 11:56am
                "though we sowed the seed of dragons, 'twas our right" FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 6, 5:23pm
                    Yes, of course! But he was young then... sador Send a private message to sador Feb 6, 6:17pm
                        Christopher's views were very different than his fathers Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 6, 6:47pm
                            Letter 250? sador Send a private message to sador Feb 10, 12:43pm
                                And Letter 267 FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 11, 9:51am
                        "But I'm sure Tolkien had his doubts." FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 11, 3:20pm
                            This post is a pleasure to read FFH. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 11, 5:25pm
                                Thanks Brethil! // FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 11, 9:24pm
                            world building Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Feb 11, 7:32pm
                                Also not disagreeing... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 11, 10:09pm
                Aragorn vs. Galadriel CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 6, 6:46pm
    Thank you everyone... elf-lady Send a private message to elf-lady Feb 7, 3:15pm
        And thank you for your comments, elf-lady! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 7, 4:53pm
        Glad to have you around Elf-lady! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7, 4:55pm
    Answers at last sador Send a private message to sador Feb 9, 5:21pm
    Kudos to Everybody Regarding this Thread & All the Postings ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Feb 11, 8:32pm
        Thanks for the kind words, Itnjmy CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 11, 10:06pm
            Thank you CuriousGeorge... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Feb 12, 6:43am
                We are happy to have you around Mikah! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 13, 3:01am
                    Hey, look who just became Half-Elven!!!! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 13, 5:09pm
                        Thank you! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 13, 5:45pm
                Just caught up with this thread Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Feb 13, 3:46pm
                    This is lovely - thanks for the link! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 13, 5:40pm
    A big thanks to everyone for their maturity and civility CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 12, 10:40pm
        Wonderfully stated CG. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 13, 2:59am
    My thoughts DaughterofLaketown Send a private message to DaughterofLaketown Mar 22, 10:34pm

 
 
 

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