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Morgul-knives and Lesser Wraiths

Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 20 2014, 6:40pm

Post #1 of 15 (246 views)
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Morgul-knives and Lesser Wraiths Can't Post

I'm posting this in Main because it could appy equally to the Reading Forum, the LotR Movie Forum or TH Movie Forum.

Since the victims of the Morgul-blades of the Nazgul can become lesser Wraiths if they are not healed, what would these creatures be called in the Black Speech? Tolkien gave very few examples of the Black Speech beyond the inscription found on the One Ring? I am unaware of a B.S. term that indicates a diminuative form (as in lesser), so perhaps one of the following would suffice: Snaggul (slave-wraith) or Krimpgul (bound-wraith). I kind of like the first for the unintentional pun. If there is a Sindarin word for Wraith then I am unaware of it.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 20 2014, 7:52pm

Post #2 of 15 (166 views)
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A related question [In reply to] Can't Post

Who else thinks that Sauron should also command one or more of the Lesser Wraiths in Dol Guldur? For that matter, when three of the Nazgul occupy the fortress later, should they, themselves, have one or more Lesser Wraiths serving under them?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 20 2014, 8:07pm

Post #3 of 15 (171 views)
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From LOTRO: [In reply to] Can't Post

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Carg%C3%BBl

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 20 2014, 8:08pm)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jan 20 2014, 10:57pm

Post #4 of 15 (137 views)
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I'm sure there's a hierarchy... [In reply to] Can't Post

...involving the Nine, "lesser wraiths", and orcs of various kinds. And they would have words for them. Apparently Tolkien didn't get around to recording all of them, however.








Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 20 2014, 11:21pm

Post #5 of 15 (137 views)
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Gūl might do. [In reply to] Can't Post

The term Gūl by itself might suffice for the Lesser Wraiths. The suggestion of Cargūl (red-wraith; the post above) is appreciated, but can't be considered strictly canon.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jan 21 2014, 12:03am

Post #6 of 15 (122 views)
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No name would be strictly canon [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien never used any other term for them besides lesser wraiths. Cargūl derives from Lord of the Rings Online only but unfortunately your suggestions in the original post wouldn't be any more canon than that word is. They would be Neo-Black Speech, like much of the dialogue developed for the movies.

Gūl probably would be the closest one could come. It's used in both the Black Speech and in Sindarin. In Black Speech, it referred to the wraiths but in Sindarin it was used in a more general sense to mean "sorcery" or "secret knowledge" (as in the words Morgul, Guldur, etc.).

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gul


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 21 2014, 12:15am

Post #7 of 15 (113 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Just Gūl or Wraith are likely most correct as terms for the Lesser Wraiths (just as lesser Uruks are goblins and Orcs, and lesser Ologs are Trolls), but it doesn't sound quite right by itself.

One more possibility might be to actually call them Morgūl or Dark Wraiths (or alternately, Black Wraiths).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 21 2014, 12:50am

Post #8 of 15 (120 views)
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Continued from above [In reply to] Can't Post

Too late to edit my previous post.

Morgūl = Black Wraiths.

Durgūl = Dark Wraiths.

Gorgogūl or Gorgūl = Haunted Wraiths

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 21 2014, 10:24am

Post #9 of 15 (119 views)
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Maybe they're so low [In reply to] Can't Post

they don't even HAVE a name! :o Less than nothing. Just a shell for torment?


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3rd draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - January 2, 2014



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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 21 2014, 2:47pm

Post #10 of 15 (94 views)
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Interesting point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
they don't even HAVE a name! :o Less than nothing. Just a shell for torment?



I would think that they would be at least as fearsome as a Wight. Still, it might be enough to just call them Wraiths/Lesser Wraiths without being more specific I'm just not sure what would signify lesser in either Sindarin or the Black Speech.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Jan 23 2014, 2:37am

Post #11 of 15 (65 views)
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In magic [In reply to] Can't Post

what you can name (whose name you know) you can rule over. Thus, if they are nameless, they are impossible to rule over. Doesn't sound well. LOL This was also reflected in religion as demons whose name you know you can summon to serve you but nameless - no ruling them. Wink

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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 23 2014, 3:34am

Post #12 of 15 (69 views)
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Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

Their names are only known to their master, thus he is the only one who controls them? That would add to the hopelessness of their plight, as they have no memory of their own names, thus they are held by an invisible chain. A cruel torment indeed!!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Jan 23 2014, 4:21am

Post #13 of 15 (63 views)
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That's the Nazgul [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd guess. Tolkien knew all I said here, so why not use it? Wink On the other hand, everyone knew or could find the names of the past kings of men who became Nazgul... Here must be something else. I've often thought it was in the nicknames, i.e. Witch King of Angmor... Kind of reverse magic: rename it and rule it. With the new name, let him lose whatever was left of his true self and then rule his remains... But with someone who has been nameless all the time... That's tricky. He may turn out to be a tough nut. Laugh

Middle earth recipes archive

I believe


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 23 2014, 7:01am

Post #14 of 15 (60 views)
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The discussion isn't about individual names [In reply to] Can't Post

The Nazgul are specifically the Wraiths who possess and were transformed by the Nine Rings. That is why they are called the Nazgul, aka the Ringwraiths. Tolkien only gave a proper name to one of them, Khamul the Easterling who is the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur and second-in-command to the Witch-king.

What I was wondering was if there is a better term for the lesser Wraiths who have been turned by a Morgul-blade other than simply referring to them as Gul. I believe that in Sindarin, Gul could mean any corrupted Maia or spirit.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 23 2014, 12:08pm

Post #15 of 15 (69 views)
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Ah! But... [In reply to] Can't Post

what if the target refuses the name? Not accept it or acknowledge it. Does it only have power over you if you receive it? Then, aren't your putting YOURSELF into servitude?

I'm thinking of that joke of the obstinate little boy who would not stop yelling and tearing around the house... driving his mother crazy! She finally stopped him, put him on the couch and demanded, "Now STAY THERE until I say you can get up!!!" He crossed his arms, scowled, and growled up at her, "I may be sitting, but I'm standing in my head."

It doesn't mean you're not being controlled, but it means you can still have control. ;)


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
3rd draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - January 2, 2014



sample

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists (updated soon)

 
 

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