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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Beyond the Romantic- a different take on the starlight conversation and Kili's reaction to it
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Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 7:32am

Post #1 of 48 (3152 views)
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Beyond the Romantic- a different take on the starlight conversation and Kili's reaction to it Can't Post

I was thinking about the starlight scene, where Tauriel is describing the stars to Kili, and something struck me- something deeply hidden under the veil of the "romance" idea, and it was something that caused me to realize there was a far deeper meaning and beauty to this scene than simply Kili and Tauriel and the crush that Kili is forming. I thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion Smile

Yes, I liked the starlight conversation. With the combination of the wonderful music (best ME music I have ever heard yet- it was so beautiful) and the wistful longing in Tauriel's voice, I felt with her words like I was being transported back to the Awakening at Cuvienen. Seriously. I know she is far too young to have been there, but she speaks of it as if it were a memory. Though it is not her personal memory, but memory passed down through generations upon generations. You can see how, even at her very core, she has that inner fire that Eru originally implanted within the elves. Their love of Starlight.

It was such a powerful moment, and the elves awakening under the stars at Cuvienen after Eru created them is among the most beautiful pieces of literature that Tolkien ever wrote. It was this moment that solidified for me that Tauriel was indeed a woodland elf of Tolkien's world, and an indication that PJ&co know FAR more about ME than we realize.

I can easily see why Kili was entranced at that moment, because he likely saw that too. A small glimpse into the time even before the Elder days that were long gone. Much like how Sam FELT that way with Lothlorien- a glimpse into a world long gone but not forgotten entirely. A time where all was still good with ME (despite the influence of Melkor quickly spreading) and what ME should have been like, had Melkor not interfered.

Even near death, and in the throes of delirium, he recalled this conversation. Because that was undoubtedly one of the most amazing and magical things that had ever happened in Middle-earth, and not likely a story he would have ever heard from his uncle.

No wonder it left such an impression on him.



patrickk
Rohan

Jan 17 2014, 7:37am

Post #2 of 48 (1009 views)
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Agree fully... [In reply to] Can't Post

...such things can be romantic without being about romance. The whole Kili Tauriel thing is a bit overdone/overloaded/overworked in discussions as being about some big romance. I really doubt it!!


Rickster
Rohan

Jan 17 2014, 7:37am

Post #3 of 48 (956 views)
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I remember others saying this too [In reply to] Can't Post

when the movie was just a few days in the cinema, there were conversations about this here in the forum that had the same ideas in it.
I like the idea


Elciryamo
Rivendell

Jan 17 2014, 8:02am

Post #4 of 48 (900 views)
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It makes more sense [In reply to] Can't Post

Romance requires far more screen time to actually make sense in Middle Earth, versus a vapid romantic comedy relationship. Tauriel and Kili have a kind of fascination with each other in the sense that they don't know anything about the other or their culture, save for the hatred that has been spoken about by members of their kin. Thorin is, obviously, openly hostile, and Thranduil hardly shows any love of the Dwarves. Even Elrond, who is the most open and supportive has a small joke at their expense by speaking in Elvish in a way that he knew would goad a reaction. It isn't exactly that the two races are working to mend a clearly broken relationship.

Kili and Tauriel's star conversation reflects more of a mutual understanding and a revelation that people from two different culture can share a same love or fascination of something outside themselves, in this case, stars. Tauriel reflects upon her own races love of the stars and is surprised by Kili sharing it. It starts the first stone in a friendship, and a healing between the races but it clearly won't be finished until Gimli and Legolas also share common ground. Again, there is not clear erasure of hostility in the LOTR trilogy, given Gimli's reaction at the Council, and Haldir's reaction in Lothlorien.


(This post was edited by Elciryamo on Jan 17 2014, 8:10am)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 8:08am

Post #5 of 48 (956 views)
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Romance Of The Spirit [In reply to] Can't Post

Curiously what Tauriel envisions is one of the most powerful Tolkien moments in these films. It is about the vision of Elven Home (the earth falling away). When people go on and on about romance they reveal a very interesting comment on the limitations of modern life that romance = physical intimacy . The point here is the connection is one of the spirit which is conjured up in their minds through the bigger story of the Ainur love of the elves and in Kili's case Aule.

These are two beings where their differences melt away when viewed at a spiritual rather than physical level. It also helps to place Legolas with his father as a more political isolationist Elf though of course in the end Legolas comes to her rescue.

On the whole I think when the dust has settled some of the extensions written into the story like the White Council and in particular Galadriel and Mithrandir will survive as relating strongly to Tolkien's world whereas some scenes which are sourced directly from the book, the stone giants will not.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 17 2014, 8:19am)


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 8:11am

Post #6 of 48 (846 views)
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exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

well said Smile



Kendalf
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 9:44am

Post #7 of 48 (828 views)
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Transported? Definitely. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
With the combination of the wonderful music (best ME music I have ever heard yet- it was so beautiful) and the wistful longing in Tauriel's voice, I felt with her words like I was being transported



Me too. Yes, it's only 30 seconds long. Yes, it's the finest sequence in all six hours so far. Smile

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Kendalf
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 9:48am

Post #8 of 48 (788 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Curiously what Tauriel envisions is one of the most powerful Tolkien moments in these films.
On the whole I think when the dust has settled some of the extensions written into the story like the White Council and in particular Galadriel and Mithrandir will survive as relating strongly to Tolkien's world whereas some scenes which are sourced directly from the book, the stone giants will not.



Agreed. This entirely made-up character in this entirely made-up scene feels infinitely more Tolkien than many of the sequences Jackson actually lifted from his writing.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 10:32am

Post #9 of 48 (846 views)
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Personally I have nothing against that conversation, [In reply to] Can't Post

If that was all there was to it, then fine!
I really liked that scene as well Smile
But I think the healing-scene later in the movie diminish it somehow...

Vocalist in the progressive metal band 5 Minutes Late
and the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 12:17pm

Post #10 of 48 (804 views)
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Yes, beautifully put.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've said in a couple of threads that this scene recalled Cuivienen for me, which it did. It's the most stunningly beautiful piece of writing, the music compliments it perfectly, and it recalls one of the loveliest parts of Tolkien's mythology.

To reduce the whole thing to a pop song type love story seems to me to be missing the point entirely - this is 'romance' in a much higher sense.


book Gandalf
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 1:56pm

Post #11 of 48 (740 views)
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hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

agree, what we got was a nice scene, but then what followed was kili (surprise surpirse )getting shot, leading to tauriel saving his life, its all so convenient,really cliche and pointless, just filling up space basically, a story line that isnt needed.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Noria
Rohan

Jan 17 2014, 2:44pm

Post #12 of 48 (752 views)
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Feast of Starlight is a beautiful scene, [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO one of the loveliest in the five movies, up there with Arwen at Aragorn's tomb.

To me as well it resonates with the Awakening at Cuvienen.

Cirashala, I really like your thought about Kili that
"Even near death, and in the throes of delirium, he recalled this conversation. "

I liked the healing scene well enough anyway but this makes it even better in my eyes.


Old Toby
Gondor


Jan 17 2014, 3:05pm

Post #13 of 48 (686 views)
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Really well said, Cirashala [In reply to] Can't Post

and I agree it's such a lovely moment in the film (and with such lovely music). I think Tauriel and Kili were starting to relate to each other on a much higher level here, not just a physical attraction but something much deeper. And although Kili is too young, and a dwarf, he has some sense of what she is talking about, I think. And I enjoyed the scene when she was healing Kili, and Kili saw her in that light. It was much the same light that Frodo saw Arwen and Elrond - that elvish light or aura that seems to surround them when a healing is taking place, not visible to others but to those who are being healed. In that moment perhaps they are truly in another realm, another time. She walks in starlight, indeed.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on Jan 17 2014, 3:08pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 3:19pm

Post #14 of 48 (716 views)
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Bomby does Think there will be more Tolkien in the EE [In reply to] Can't Post

A Tolkien Song by FireLight & Candles
@ Beorn's Lodge...

Bombur falling into the Enchanted River..
Could Mirror Frodo's FacePlant
in the Dead Marshes?
(One of Bomby's Favorite scenes..)

Maybe Radgast talking to Galadreil
about Gandalf in Dol Guldur?

Would love to see a Tiny bit of LothLorien.
(Maybe @ her Mirror?)


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jan 17 2014, 3:22pm)


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Jan 17 2014, 4:57pm

Post #15 of 48 (633 views)
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Beautiful thoughts about a beautiful scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

What?...No, I'm not crying, I just have some dust in my eye, that's all...*sniff*

I haven't gotten the chance to read the Silmarilion yet (I would have gotten it with the Barnes&Nobel gift card I got for Christmas but they were sold outFrown) so this isn't something that occurred to me before. However, after reading you're explanation, I couldn't agree more. I had already loved both of the Kili/Tauriel scenes, if nothing else for their beauty and innocence, but they will have even greater meaning for me from now on. Thank you so much for sharing!Smile


I think PJ&Co don't get nearly enough credit for their depth of Tolkien knowledge. I've heard so many things that indicate to me that they have read, memorized, and loved it all, but as is typical with most things in life, they just can't please everyone.

"And we find what we're made of
Through the open door
Is it fear you're afraid of?
What are you waiting for?
Love alone is worth the fight."
-Switchfoot


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Jan 17 2014, 5:01pm

Post #16 of 48 (635 views)
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100% agreed on all points// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"And we find what we're made of
Through the open door
Is it fear you're afraid of?
What are you waiting for?
Love alone is worth the fight."
-Switchfoot


iduna
Rivendell


Jan 17 2014, 5:48pm

Post #17 of 48 (618 views)
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I agree -- it's the first step toward a deeper understanding [In reply to] Can't Post

Two of the younger, more open members of both races talk together and find a connection that's spiritual. I think that's what that scene is getting at.
Thanks for a lovely explanation of that moment.


Esmeralda
Bree


Jan 17 2014, 6:16pm

Post #18 of 48 (599 views)
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Lovely interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

of that scene, and I think it resonates with a great deal of truth. It speaks of Tauriel's longing to be part of the world and walk freely beneath the stars. She tells Kili with a tone that suggests that such ventures are discouraged, if not actually forbidden - "I have walked there, sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air." This is her birthright as an elf, yet Thranduil's isolationism keeps them from it. I can imagine how stifled Tauriel must feel, and how the chance to hear about the world, see it through a new pair of eyes - even those of a dwarf - must excite her interest and curiosity. The idea that she forms an attachment to him through this encounter doesn't surprise me at all. She probably hasn't spoken to anyone as young and adventurous as Kili for decades, if not centuries. Even a short time in eachother's company can spark something very powerful when there is such novelty and common-feeling involved.

The only thing that struck a wrong note was Kili's line at the end of the healing scene - "Do you think she could have loved me?" It felt a bit much, a little too romance-novelesque. But still, I would have liked to hear Tauriel's answer :).


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 6:24pm

Post #19 of 48 (644 views)
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You do but you can not [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the ironies of the embargo on the rights to the Silmarillion is the Tolkien estate is trying to make a disconnect across JRRT's literature which is impossible to do. Just about everything that is profoundly reverential in the Hobbit (as opposed to a beautiful take on the little book like Bag End) and wound tightly into Tolkien's world has its basis in the Silmarillion.

From the seven families of the Dwarves in AUJ onwards the white gems the enmity between Thranduil and Durin's line are Silmarillion centric. In other words many of the matters which give the Hobbit resonance and depth and are a deep pleasure to the book fans in one sense should not be there.

I found myself using the term Eleven Home rather than Cuivienen to avoid making the connection because it is forbidden !

It is left curiously ambiguous but we all know that Tauriel is referring to a time before the fall of Numenor and The War of Wrath.






In Reply To
I've said in a couple of threads that this scene recalled Cuivienen for me, which it did. It's the most stunningly beautiful piece of writing, the music compliments it perfectly, and it recalls one of the loveliest parts of Tolkien's mythology.

To reduce the whole thing to a pop song type love story seems to me to be missing the point entirely - this is 'romance' in a much higher sense.


My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 17 2014, 6:27pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 6:45pm

Post #20 of 48 (596 views)
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Well true.... [In reply to] Can't Post

They couldn't refer explicitly to Cuivienen in the film script, or to anything else from the Silmarillion - anything that doesn't appear in Lord of the Rings (including the Appendices), that is. But any of us can say 'it reminds me of this' because that's just a statement of fact. Doesn't breach anyone's copyright.

The film treads a very fine line but I think it succeeds in evoking those images in the minds of people who already know them, who come away with a sense that it feels very much like Tolkien. But there are no explicit references, so anyone who hasn't read the Silmarillion wouldn't pick up on it.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 7:52pm

Post #21 of 48 (635 views)
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Is it possible that we see "The Feast of Starlight" Upstairs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the EE..

While our
Dwarves are imprisoned
Downstairs?

Could be a way to Expand the
TimeLine in
Thranduiel's Halls!

It does seem that it too
is a Deleted Scene...

(Invisible Bilbo, Pilfering Food?)

A chance to see the
Extent... of his Vast
Empire?
A Huge Chorus song in
Elvish would be amazing?

So far, his Kingdom
seemed pretty
Empty?

More Elves..PJ?

Bomby puts
That on his
Wish List
for the EE.


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Jan 17 2014, 8:25pm

Post #22 of 48 (557 views)
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I'm pretty sure we will, Bomby [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen multiple sources, including some people here on the boards, say that they filmed scenes from "The Feast of Starlight" so I hope that means we'll see it in the EE.

Personally, I'm pretty excited about the possibility of seeing more of Thranduil's beautiful Halls!

"And we find what we're made of
Through the open door
Is it fear you're afraid of?
What are you waiting for?
Love alone is worth the fight."
-Switchfoot


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 8:26pm

Post #23 of 48 (541 views)
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I'm crossing fingers that we might! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 9:07pm

Post #24 of 48 (572 views)
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I will admit... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that the whole "Eldar/starlight" conversation did sound very Tolkien, but the Tauriel/Kili dynamic still does not sit right with me. Gimli and Legolas were the ones who bridged the gap between the Dwarven and Elven races, not Kili and Tauriel. In my opinion there should have been nothing but enmity between the Elves and Dwarves in this trilogy.


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Jan 17 2014, 9:23pm

Post #25 of 48 (561 views)
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As someone [In reply to] Can't Post

who's completely against the whole Tauriel/Kili relationship angle, I don't mind this scene. I mean, yeah, I felt like it was strange for her to be fraternizing with prisoners (and so soon after bringing them in), but that aside I thought the dialogue was very well done and the music beautiful. I love when she takes a few steps away from the cell and looks up as she talks about the stars. I thought EL did that brilliantly --she reminded me of a child telling someone what Christmas is like and getting all excited. Smile That made it relatable and, for me, a lovely movement.

Thank you for a very thoughtful and well-written post :)

keep smiling Smile

(This post was edited by wonderinglinguist on Jan 17 2014, 9:24pm)

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