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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thorin is a well-preserved Dwarf
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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 16 2014, 9:41pm

Post #1 of 30 (950 views)
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Thorin is a well-preserved Dwarf Can't Post

Im sure that this was brought up elsewhere, but I can't find the original post.

While waiting for these movies to come out, we have debated whether Thorin is younger in the films than in Tolkien's legendarium. Welll, the answer is revealed in the tapastry that Bard discovers in Lake-town: Full-sized image.

The image shows the birth years of both Thorin (TA 2740) and his father Thrain (2644). Both are in agreement with Tolkien's canon. We can also just make out the birth year of Thorin's great-uncle Gror (2563). Film-Thorin is about 200 years old--older than Balin despite his relatively youthful appearance. That doesn't necessarily mean that film-Smaug occupied Erebor in 2770, but it does suggest that it was still well before his 60-year hibernation.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Avandel
Valinor

Jan 16 2014, 9:49pm

Post #2 of 30 (493 views)
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Good food and exercise [In reply to] Can't Post

and good genes from his mother. LOL, amazing what fans pick up on. All the more reason for PJ to hire FANS to screen his movies pre-release - if he had, both Orcrist and Glamdring might have gotten their blue glow when orcs were near.....


Retro315
Rivendell

Jan 16 2014, 10:05pm

Post #3 of 30 (458 views)
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Re [In reply to] Can't Post

That's awesome, I hadn't noticed. I'd assumed they'd youthened him regarding the actor portraying him but not textually, but it's nice to see an on-screen validation of it.

There's a precedent in Tolkien for those of these really extreme royal lineages being very long-lived. Aragorn at 80-something resembles a 40 year old man, after all. And Durin was called "The Deathless".

I can tolerate a Thorin who seems 40-50 in human years - honestly the salt and pepper in his hair was enough to sell me on the compromise (though I obviously wish his beard were more epic).


Bard'sBlackArrow
Lorien


Jan 16 2014, 10:11pm

Post #4 of 30 (442 views)
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Same here... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That's awesome, I hadn't noticed. I'd assumed they'd youthened him regarding the actor portraying him but not textually, but it's nice to see an on-screen validation of it.

There's a precedent in Tolkien for those of these really extreme royal lineages being very long-lived. Aragorn at 80-something resembles a 40 year old man, after all. And Durin was called "The Deathless".

I can tolerate a Thorin who seems 40-50 in human years - honestly the salt and pepper in his hair was enough to sell me on the compromise (though I obviously wish his beard were more epic).


Yeah, I feel that way too.

And nice point on long lived royals. Still, it is surprising since PJ and co. clearly fought for a younger Thorin for the book age to still be the case.

Elves?!? I don't need no stinkin' Elves. :D


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 16 2014, 10:44pm

Post #5 of 30 (414 views)
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I'd chalk it up to Durin's line, but then so is Balin... ah well... magic genes skip as much as ordinary ones [In reply to] Can't Post

no doubt of it.

In Reply To
Im sure that this was brought up elsewhere, but I can't find the original post.

While waiting for these movies to come out, we have debated whether Thorin is younger in the films than in Tolkien's legendarium. Welll, the answer is revealed in the tapastry that Bard discovers in Lake-town: Full-sized image.

The image shows the birth years of both Thorin (TA 2740) and his father Thrain (2644). Both are in agreement with Tolkien's canon. We can also just make out the birth year of Thorin's great-uncle Gror (2563). Film-Thorin is about 200 years old--older than Balin despite his relatively youthful appearance. That doesn't necessarily mean that film-Smaug occupied Erebor in 2770, but it does suggest that it was still well before his 60-year hibernation.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Barrow-Wight
Lorien


Jan 16 2014, 11:15pm

Post #6 of 30 (398 views)
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I think it says [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it says 2746 instead of 2740


(This post was edited by Barrow-Wight on Jan 16 2014, 11:16pm)


Azaghâl
Lorien


Jan 16 2014, 11:16pm

Post #7 of 30 (403 views)
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I really hope [In reply to] Can't Post

that we'll be able to purchase that tapestry some time in the future!

*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!*


Avandel
Valinor

Jan 16 2014, 11:32pm

Post #8 of 30 (361 views)
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bet someone on TORn makes one.... [In reply to] Can't Post

lots of "crafty" Ringers. And just reading posts about the tapestry has that scene playing in my head w. the music - very pleasant, LOL. The prophecy scene gives me chills.


legolin12
The Shire

Jan 17 2014, 12:51am

Post #9 of 30 (314 views)
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Me! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am currently working on one, though it's not identical to the one in the film Tongue
As for Thorin, I don't mind his younger looks at all Cool
Plus, when you convert Dwarf years to human years, he's still fairly young Laugh

'"Answer the question, filth!"'


Meneldor
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 2:23am

Post #10 of 30 (391 views)
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According to the AUJ EE commentary [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
both Orcrist and Glamdring might have gotten their blue glow when orcs were near.....

they tried the blue glow on Biter and Beater, but they looked just like lightsabers. I'd like to see the test footage for myself.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Avandel
Valinor

Jan 17 2014, 2:42am

Post #11 of 30 (281 views)
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Very cool if you are making one [In reply to] Can't Post

See - I knew crafty Ringers could take something like that on - as compared to a costume etc. Hope you will post a picture and details when done.

*Shrug* Re Thorin - personally would never give his "look" as is up. Striking, and he's definitely an adult dwarf - I didn't need him to look something like Balin. Took me forever to notice his longer beard at the beginning of AUJ (when he is at Erebor) and can't say that Thorin's beard length crossed my mind, ever, watching the Hobbit movies. I never thought to myself "this would be a much better Thorin, if only his beard were longer!!!")


Avandel
Valinor

Jan 17 2014, 5:24am

Post #12 of 30 (286 views)
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LOL!! [In reply to] Can't Post

"they tried the blue glow on Biter and Beater, but they looked just like lightsabers."

I'd like to see the footage too, but I can see how that would be distracting...


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 7:28am

Post #13 of 30 (260 views)
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I posted about it, in Bomby's thread... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...birth%20date;#662970


Smile


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 8:08am

Post #14 of 30 (249 views)
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according to this wonderful conversion chart.... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://axebow.lcwsites.net/...comparativeages.html

If he were 200 years old, that would put him in human years at about 58.

He did age well, but that is definitely believable in movie Thorin.

Though I think technically he was 196 at the time of the Quest, which would put him at 57.

Either way, still aged well Smile

Balin would be about 52 if you went by the book 178 (I think). Some men white/gray sooner than others.

I think it could be believable.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 12:58pm

Post #15 of 30 (212 views)
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Oops! You're right. TA 2746 [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think it says 2746 instead of 2740



I got Thorin's birthyear wrong in the opening post. I will guess that Peter kept the year of the Battle of Azanulbizar the same (TA 2799), but moved Smaug's occupation of Erebor closer to it (maybe 2790 instead of 2770) so that Thorin would be a young adult Dwarf and not a child nor adolescent. Durin's line is supposed to be especially long-lived, even for Dwarves, so it makes sense that Thorin barely looks middle-aged even approaching 200.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 17 2014, 1:00pm)


Rickster
Rohan

Jan 17 2014, 12:59pm

Post #16 of 30 (218 views)
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So Balin dies 5 years later. That would make him less than 200 years. That is a pitty [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
http://axebow.lcwsites.net/...comparativeages.html

If he were 200 years old, that would put him in human years at about 58.

He did age well, but that is definitely believable in movie Thorin.

Though I think technically he was 196 at the time of the Quest, which would put him at 57.

Either way, still aged well Smile

Balin would be about 52 if you went by the book 178 (I think). Some men white/gray sooner than others.

I think it could be believable.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 1:03pm

Post #17 of 30 (207 views)
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Collectable Tapestry [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I really hope that we'll be able to purchase that tapestry some time in the future!



I'll admit that the same thought has gone through my head.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 1:07pm

Post #18 of 30 (197 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

And now that I view the earlier thread, I recall reading it the first time around.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Macfeast
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 1:43pm

Post #19 of 30 (209 views)
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Huh. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was under the impression that it had been all but confirmed that Thorin had actually been made younger. Guess that was not the case.

I suppose that, if looking at the humans and the elves, it might make sense that the dwarven royal line would also have "good genes", though personally I would have preferred to see that theme subverted, seeing as a) we've already had a leading hero and returning king be of the "older than he looks"-variety, and a character of Thorin's caliber allowed to grow old and grey would have been something more unique, b) it apparently didn't apply to Thorin's two priors (at the very least Thráin, at Smaug's coming, wouldn't have been any older than Thorin during the Quest, even with PJ's timeline-alterations accounted for), and c) it would fit with the unique and "outcast" origin of the dwarves and make them stand out from the Children of Ilúvatar, that what applies to men and elves, doesn't apply to the dwarves.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jan 17 2014, 1:50pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jan 17 2014, 2:52pm

Post #20 of 30 (180 views)
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I too, read that somewhere... [In reply to] Can't Post

it may have been a second-hand report of an interview but the way I heard it was that the writers (for some reason) wanted Thorin to look young enough to be able to father a dynasty if/when he reclaimed his kingdom...Crazy


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Avandel
Valinor

Jan 17 2014, 3:55pm

Post #21 of 30 (181 views)
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in the Appendices [In reply to] Can't Post

where Boyens and PJ are talking about casting RA. IMO they do make some good points re having a "younger" Thorin vs. the book, re when they talk about the need for the audience to be able to invest in a character.

And believe he can retake Erebor and have a long life - they are not wrong, *cough* IMO hard for an audience to follow characters and have them just die *cough*


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 4:47pm

Post #22 of 30 (191 views)
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Phil also said...Richard was the Youngest Actor [In reply to] Can't Post

they Auditioned...
They needed someone who could
Really Fight & Run..
They Thought someone in their
60's or 70's wouldn't be as able-bodied
as Richard.

It really was a Long Grind for all the Actors
& Likely Ken Stott had a double for
most of the Action & Running.

Isn't he the oldest Actor other than Ian or Sly?

Bomby will check IMDb for that...


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2014, 4:54pm

Post #23 of 30 (164 views)
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Ken Stott is 59, John Callen (Gloin) is over 60...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Macfeast
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 5:02pm

Post #24 of 30 (174 views)
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Seems inconsistent to me. [In reply to] Can't Post

This isn't something that only applies to Thorin; We're also going to need to believe that, after TABA, the already old-looking Balin not only endured leading an expedition to Moria, but also survived long enough for his death in FOTR to come as a surprise. Sure, Balin's expedition happens off-screen, but then, so would also Thorin's reign.
Are we supposed to believe that an old dwarf could muster the strength to lead a dangerous expedition to Moria, and then be expected to reign there until FOTR, all this during the time-frame in which Bilbo grows old... while at the same time, believe that an old dwarf is unable to simply sit on the throne of Erebor and have a long reign before dying of old age? If I had to pick the scenario that sounded the most unbelievable, I certainly wouldn't pick the latter.

I don't think their argument by itself is invalid, but they could stand to be a little more consistent about it; If they really thought that we would find it hard to believe that an already old character could survive for so much longer, then they should have made Balin younger as well, to accommodate for his journey to Moria; Instead, they went and made Balin one of the oldest-looking dwarves of the company. Balin may not be a leading character like Thorin, but he's notable enough for this inconsistency to strike me.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jan 17 2014, 5:12pm)


Elskidor
Rohan


Jan 17 2014, 6:46pm

Post #25 of 30 (128 views)
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True, my brother started sporting grey hair at 12 years old. Honest. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Balin would be about 52 if you went by the book 178 (I think). Some men white/gray sooner than others.

I think it could be believable.


Tolkien Elimination Game (Round 5: Elves)

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=704543;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

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