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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The inclusion of Tauriel diminished Legolas
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ec1988
The Shire

Jan 16 2014, 3:16am

Post #1 of 71 (11106 views)
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The inclusion of Tauriel diminished Legolas Can't Post

I really liked Legolas in LOTR, and I felt that Bloom captured perfectly what an elf should be: noble, subtle, and graceful. In DOS, I just found Legolas to be a highly unlikable jerk and rather petty, and he serves as little more than flashy eye candy. Having thought about it, I really think that it was the addition of Tauriel that severely diminished Legolas' character. With Tauriel, Legolas became jealous and petulant with this whole cheesy and unbelievable love triangle. Bloom did as well as any given what Legolas was thrown into, but Tauriel's whole "are we part of this world" sentiment should've been given to Legolas, and there should've been much more Legolas/Thranduil scenes. Everything written for Tauriel could have instead been transfered over to Legolas. Then there would be absolutely no need for Tauriel, who was unnecessary and poorly written anyways. There was a lot of potential for Legolas to be a great and help bridge the Hobbit series with LOTR series. I honestly feel rather bad for Bloom as well, since he was forced to act out a Legolas that was worse than what he did for LOTR.

The less I see of Tauriel the better. Not only is she completely anti-Tolkien, her presence has diminished other wonderful characters as well. Without Tauriel, Legolas could have been a much better character.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, Legolas in LOTR was not particularly anti-dwarf, but here we see him being a complete jerk to Gloin with that comment about Gimli. Another inconsistency that could have been avoided if Tauriel was completely removed and whatever was written for her was given to Legolas instead.


(This post was edited by ec1988 on Jan 16 2014, 3:29am)


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Jan 16 2014, 3:32am

Post #2 of 71 (9958 views)
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It diminished the Legolas/Gimli plot line [In reply to] Can't Post

While I certainly agree that Legolas in the Hobbit movies is far from my perspective of the elf, I'm far more concerned that for the sake of some very cheap entertainment, the team diminishes the importance of the Legolas/Gimpli plot line in terms of elf/dwarf relationship in Tolkien's world. The importance of Legolas/Gimli relationship in Tolkien's world is great because it's unique for the time it happens due to the past of both races. With the unnecessary inclusions of characters and plot lines in the Hobbit, any future viewer who will see first the Hobbit trilogy and then the LOTR one will be lost for the importance of the mentioned relationship. That's why I refuse to watch these movies again. I'm very displeased with what they did this time. Without any perspective, without any further consideration, and without respect for Tolkien's world in which namely Legolas and Gimpli brought the change, not some Elvish Lara Croft. Enough said.

P.S. I, being a female, have zero understanding for any desires to include "female heroines". If I want movies with female heroines, there are plenty out there. To create unexisting such characters and implant them in a story receives also zero appreciation from me.

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ec1988
The Shire

Jan 16 2014, 3:37am

Post #3 of 71 (9890 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot to mention, Legolas in LOTR was not particularly anti-dwarf, but here we see him being a complete jerk to Gloin with that comment about Gimli. Another inconsistency that could have been avoided if Tauriel was completely removed and whatever was written for her was given to Legolas instead.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 16 2014, 3:44am

Post #4 of 71 (9872 views)
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Legolas was thoroughly anti-dwarf at the beginning of LotR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gloin (book) complained of his mistreatment in the Elves' halls. Later, before the gate into Moria, Gandalf reminisced,

Quote
Those were happier days, when there was still close friendship at times between folk of different race, even between Dwarves and Elves.’

‘It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,’ said Gimli.

‘I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,’ said Legolas.

‘I have heard both,’ said Gandalf; ‘and I will not give judgement
now.


Nearing Lórien, Legolas blamed the Dwarves for "awakening the evil in the mountains." In general, it was very clear that both Elves and Dwarves harbored deep grudges. Gimli's admiration for Galadriel thawed things a little, but they didn't really warm up until Helm's Deep.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jan 16 2014, 3:50am)


Elskidor
Rohan


Jan 16 2014, 3:47am

Post #5 of 71 (9839 views)
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Legolas is pretty likable in LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Leggy just comes across an unlikable jerk, but I don't blame Tauriel for that. They gave Legolas some pretty bad material and turned him into a major a-hole that I'd rather not see in TABA. Tauriel, meh, she's more elf than Legolas in DoS and I don't mind her, but I could easily live without her too though.

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demnation
Rohan

Jan 16 2014, 4:07am

Post #6 of 71 (9848 views)
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Objectively I can agree [In reply to] Can't Post

But subjectively it doesn't matter much to me since I find Tauriel to be a much more interesting character anyway.


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Jan 16 2014, 4:18am

Post #7 of 71 (9840 views)
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*claps* [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you! What I've struggled to express you put into words wonderfully!

keep smiling Smile


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Jan 16 2014, 4:57am

Post #8 of 71 (9827 views)
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Actually I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

All in all, I would have liked seeing less of Legolas altogether; however, I felt the interaction between him and Tauriel to be interesting and I thought it added so much more to his character. In the LOTR films, he was eye-candy at best, IMO, with virtually no personality. I love the depiction of Thranduil and thought Legolas fit right in to the family mold - the nuts don't fall far from the tree and all that. He's a lot more aggressive, judgmental, and insular in DOS - much like dear old dad. I still think he is a very wooden character however. I find both Thranduil and Tauriel a lot more interesting.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Jan 16 2014, 5:03am

Post #9 of 71 (9828 views)
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While I'm no Tauriel fan, your reasoning is rather flawed [In reply to] Can't Post

I too wasn't very fond of Legolas, nor did I like Tauriel, but I disagree with your reasoning here. While it is true that Tauriel's plot isn't well executed and Legolas became a petulant asshole, I simply don't see this as the result of Tauriel's inclusion. Even with the addition of Tauriel, Legolas didn't have to express his distrust of dwarves in such a petulant manner. In other words, the addition of Tauriel should not inherently result in a petulant Legolas. Quite frankly, Legolas could have been written and portrayed better even with the inclusion of Tauriel.

While I don't like Tauriel, my dislike is due to the execution rather than the concept. I don't think there's anything wrong with a fleshed-out Captain of the Guards, since the captain being female can serve to add some variety. In other words, there's nothing inherently wrong with the concept. But I felt that the execution left much to be desired, i.e. her and Kili can develop a mutual respect rather than some kind of romance.


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Jan 16 2014, 5:09am)


Avandel
Half-elven

Jan 16 2014, 5:15am

Post #10 of 71 (9827 views)
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and I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry! But I thought the LOTR Legolas was wonderful - just what I thought an elf should be like - a bit inscrutable, mysterious, liked his relationship w. Aragon and Gimli.

And I am wistful that all of Tauriel's part (who is likable) didn't fall to Legolas. It seemed to make sense to me - if only they had made Tauriel an older, female, very tough elf which IMO was more believable as a "captain of the guard" anyway. I would have like to see Legolas having to go through the angst of arguing with his father and struggling with his father's values vs. his own. Plus unlike Tauriel he could argue back more and we would have, potentially, seen more of Thranduil.

But, we DID get Thranduil who is amazing. And Tauriel is likable - whatever anyone might think of the Kili thing, Kili and Tauriel have good chemistry too.


Elciryamo
Rivendell

Jan 16 2014, 5:40am

Post #11 of 71 (9818 views)
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I too, must disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, I did not find Thranduil particularly likeable, though well played, because of his obvious isolationist views and animosity towards the Dwarves. I thought he showed just as much animosity towards Thorin that Thorin shows towards the Elves.

Legolas, by nature of being Thranduil's son, reflects his father's views, and I must agree that Legolas was not exactly friendly towards Dwarves, either at Council or at Lothlorien.

While I think Tauriel was onscreen a little bit too much, I also think she served as a good foil against Thranduil's isolationism, while Legolas reflects more of his father's attitudes.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jan 16 2014, 5:44am

Post #12 of 71 (9793 views)
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The reasoning here is deeply flawed [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas in DoS is not the same Legolas we see in LOTR, but that has nothing to do with any "cheesy unbelievable love triangle". The whole thing that people are calling a "love triangle" refers to one scene that was added during the 2012 reshoots: the dialogue between Tauriel and Thranduil, where Thranduil suggests that Legolas' feelings for Tauriel may have moved beyond friendship. Legolas is not in that scene, and most of his scenes in the film were already in the can by then. The idea by Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh to add a personal element to Legolas' dislike of Dwarves was suggested by Legolas' "dirty look" toward Kili in the dungeon scene, which was already filmed and certainly had nothing to do with jealousy or petulance, but rather disgust and dislike. And where in the film does Legolas act jealous or petulant due to some "love triangle"? Most of his remaining scenes are pure action; in the one non-action scene (the "It IS our fight dialogue) nothing that Legolas says or does could in any way be interpreted as jealousy, and in fact both he and Tauriel probably think that Kili is dead anyway, because (1) Narzug told them so; (2) Thranduil said that he didn't care about "one dead Dwarf"; (3) Tauriel herself says that the king allowed this orc pack to "cross our borders and kill our prisoners". In Laketown Legolas is almost pure action; in Bard's house he never even acknowledges that the Dwarves are there, let alone act in any jealous manner. So where does this idea of a "love triangle" diminishing Legolas' character come from?

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.











ec1988
The Shire

Jan 16 2014, 5:59am

Post #13 of 71 (9782 views)
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Let me explain [In reply to] Can't Post

Why can't they simply make Legolas as Thranduil's foil? Basically, let Legolas have whatever Tauriel has right now, and then you would have the same effect without an extra unnecessary character. Legolas would be much better in this film if there is no Tauriel.


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Jan 16 2014, 6:20am

Post #14 of 71 (9760 views)
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Legolas could have been better even with Tauriel's inclusion [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is where your reasoning flawed. You seem to have the notion that Legolas' is petulant because of Tauriel, which I find to be a rather fallacious argument. Quite frankly Legolas could have been better written and portrayed even with the inclusion of Tauriel. The addition of Tauriel should not be the cause of Legolas being an all around jerk.


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Jan 16 2014, 6:22am)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 16 2014, 7:48am

Post #15 of 71 (9711 views)
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yes, Legolas could have been better written... [In reply to] Can't Post

but how? what direction would you have taken him in with Tauriel still in the mix? What the OP is saying is that transfering Tauriel's anti-isolationist storyline to Legolas would have given him a more meaningful part. Here he's reduced to basically an eye-candy- killing machine.. Very disappointing.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 16 2014, 8:03am

Post #16 of 71 (9738 views)
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ummm….could he have changed a bit in those 60 years?? [In reply to] Can't Post

you do realize its 60 years between DOS and FOTR? In 60 years might you too have a change of heart on certain things??

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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 16 2014, 8:07am

Post #17 of 71 (9727 views)
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An eye-candy- killing machine [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't that what he was in LotR?








7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Jan 16 2014, 8:09am

Post #18 of 71 (9715 views)
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Legolas can act as the moderate [In reply to] Can't Post

He can be a middle-ground of Thranduil's isolationism and Tauriel's interventionism. A bit like the id, ego, and super-ego trio. By taking both of their thoughts on foreign policy into consideration, Legolas can come across as wise and considerate instead of petty and petulant.

Perhaps my point is that Legolas could have been better written regardless of Tauriel's inclusion.


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Jan 16 2014, 8:22am)


Rickster
Rohan

Jan 16 2014, 11:12am

Post #19 of 71 (9639 views)
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It was all ok for me. All 5 the movies are different and they are good [In reply to] Can't Post

in their own right... There is only one thing that makes me grrr a bit and that is that we STILL have to wait 11 months for TABA


tsmith675
Gondor


Jan 16 2014, 12:09pm

Post #20 of 71 (9652 views)
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Nope, not at all.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"This day we FIGHT!"


Rowan Greene
Lorien


Jan 16 2014, 1:42pm

Post #21 of 71 (9679 views)
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Yep, this is pretty much echoes my sentiments...... [In reply to] Can't Post

Her story arc is contrived and forced and comes across like fan fiction shoehorned into the script. She's completely superfluous and her story arc did nothing to move the story forward, and in fact, detracted from it and resulted in some unfavorable deviations from the source material. Removing the character and her story arc would result in a tighter and more engaging plot, it would improve the pace, and it would improve canon character story arcs by allowing filmmakers to devote more screen time to integral characters like Bilbo. She strays too far from canon, IMO, and her inclusion coupled with the Kili story arc diminish the Legolas/Gimli and the Gimli/Galadriel moments, while serving absolutely no purpose in the grand scheme of things. I didn't need this Kili/Tauriel nonsense to care about Kili's fate, and she wasn't a necessary element to explore Thranduil's isolationist policies. Legolas would have sufficed. I wish they had instead explored the father/son dynamic because then Legolas wouldn't have been reduced to the third wheel in an unnecessary love triangle and an acrobatic orc killing machine. (And yeah, I get that some of you didn't think it was a love triangle. If it in fact doesn't exist, we sure wasted a lot of screen time alluding to the possibility, such as Thranduil's dialogue with Tauriel, etc.)

And it's why I feel Tauriel is a Mary Sue--she's entirely "too much": She’s not only a female but the best fighter* and a healer. She’s got a dwarf and an elvish Prince 'fawning' over her. She’s got red hair, a rarity in the Tolkien realm**, that's longer than even Lady Galadriel's or Arwen's. She has a dark and dismal past (orphaned when her parents were killed by orcs) and was taken in and favored by the King. She’s rebellious and despite only being 600 years old, has risen to the position of the Captain of the Guard. The list goes on... She's what's known as a "Special Snowflake" in that she has traits (and a back story) that set her apart from her race (traits such as rebelliousness, able to fall in love-at-first-sight with a dwarf and instantly sympathize with their plight, incredibly long flowing red hair, an overwhelming concern for outside realms and races, plus those mentioned above in the "too much" section. And, she seems unusually complicated and conflicted for a Silvan elf).

*Canon: Sure, there were a handful of female elf 'warriors' in Tolkien's writings, such as Luthien and Aredhel, but they were few and far between. And let's not forget: Luthien was a Princess of Doriath (and the daughter of Elu Thingol, King of Doriath, and his Queen, Melian the Maia), and Aredhel was a Princess of Gondolin (also known as the White Lady of the Ñoldor). They were unique and for good reason.

**Canon: red hair is a rarity among elves known to only exist in Feanor’s line via Nerdanel. It made them unique in Tolkien's world. Tauriel is not of his line--Feanor was the High King of the Noldor. In addition, Tauriel gets the 'absurd hair award' from me. Not only is it unsuitable for battle but it looks ridiculous.


In Reply To
While I certainly agree that Legolas in the Hobbit movies is far from my perspective of the elf, I'm far more concerned that for the sake of some very cheap entertainment, the team diminishes the importance of the Legolas/Gimpli plot line in terms of elf/dwarf relationship in Tolkien's world. The importance of Legolas/Gimli relationship in Tolkien's world is great because it's unique for the time it happens due to the past of both races. With the unnecessary inclusions of characters and plot lines in the Hobbit, any future viewer who will see first the Hobbit trilogy and then the LOTR one will be lost for the importance of the mentioned relationship. That's why I refuse to watch these movies again. I'm very displeased with what they did this time. Without any perspective, without any further consideration, and without respect for Tolkien's world in which namely Legolas and Gimpli brought the change, not some Elvish Lara Croft. Enough said.

P.S. I, being a female, have zero understanding for any desires to include "female heroines". If I want movies with female heroines, there are plenty out there. To create unexisting such characters and implant them in a story receives also zero appreciation from me.




(This post was edited by Rowan Greene on Jan 16 2014, 1:53pm)


Rowan Greene
Lorien


Jan 16 2014, 2:02pm

Post #22 of 71 (9624 views)
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Oops.... [In reply to] Can't Post

My above response was meant as a reply to ec1988's post and I somehow managed to reply to simplyaven's post below his/hers. Unsure



(This post was edited by Rowan Greene on Jan 16 2014, 2:02pm)


TheSexyBeard
Lorien


Jan 16 2014, 2:07pm

Post #23 of 71 (9624 views)
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I have no problem with Angry Legolas. [In reply to] Can't Post

I liked that we got the chance to see Legolas be anti-dwarf. I felt we didn't see enough of Legolas being anti-dwarf in FoTR. The focus was on Gimli being the aggressive one when they were both equally antagonistic to one another in the book. I feel the Legolas we seen in DoS was quite different to Legolas in LOTR mostly due to his arrogance which I feel helped reinforce the fact he's 60 years younger. He's a bit full of himself and thinks he's invincible (when Bolg makes him bleed I interpreted that as the first time an Orc has ever really hurt him). If anything I feel seeing Legolas be so aggressive towards dwarves now makes his friendship we see with Gimli by the end of RotK more heart warming as we've seen him develop as a character. I don't think Tauriel diminished his character in anyway.

Yes, my username is terrible.


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Jan 16 2014, 2:29pm

Post #24 of 71 (9583 views)
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That's OK, I second your thoughts! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Glorfindela
Valinor


Jan 16 2014, 3:07pm

Post #25 of 71 (9605 views)
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I would say that the inclusion of Legolas diminished Legolas [In reply to] Can't Post

Completely unnecessary, bad looking and an unpleasant character to boot. Should have been featured as a cameo.

Lily is a better actress than Bloom, and her performance did not jar with me too much (though the jury is still out on Tauriel – I do not want her to take away from any of the main canon characters in TABA, as has been discussed in earlier posts).

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