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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Thoughts on Uruk-Hai

Remus
Lorien


Jan 11 2014, 11:50am

Post #1 of 15 (724 views)
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Thoughts on Uruk-Hai Can't Post

So i just rewatched FOTR yesterday on Bluray (Extend Edition of course) and that scene with the mud pits makes me always wonder how the Uruk-hai were made/created.

So i wanna hear your opinions on this scene and if it's something you don't like? Or you just doesn't mind it? Ignore that scene?

Here's how i see it in the MOVIE version and NOT in the BOOK:

I thought Saruman had his orcs raid villages and towns and took the women (humans) and let the "ordinary/classic" orcs rape them. And Saruman using dark powers/magic to speed up the process in which the women gave birth within weeks and then later put the born uruk-hai baby in the mud under Orthanc and used dark spells to accelerate their growth. Like plant seeds planted in the ground. He couldn't wait for 9 months to have the women birth the Uruk-hai and then wait like 20-30 years to have the Uruk-hai in "combat form" and ready. So he used dark magic to speed things up. He needed a 10.000 strong army withing months. Yeah, it's Pretty dark... orcs raping women... I am glad i didn't have to see that.

I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2014, 9:23pm

Post #2 of 15 (524 views)
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My personal Head-canon [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow!! That sounds dangerous!! A head cannon!!Crazy

If we accept that orcs are immortal, Saruman could use the oldest members of the race (Who have the most genetic material.), and aided by magic/science, create, in a the equivalent of a M-E lab, the Uruk-hai from the best suiting parts of orc/corrupted Elvish genetics.


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


sevilodorf
Gondor


Jan 12 2014, 2:38am

Post #3 of 15 (462 views)
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alternative possibilities (totally speculative) [In reply to] Can't Post

and oh my what such speculation shows about the paths my mind wanders.... anyway...

Just as there are few Dwarf females there are few Orc females, but they do exist. When Orc females breed, it's a case of multiple births with a gestation period of two or three months. More along the lines of litters. Thus allowing for multiple litters per year. Orc children mature rapidly.

However, Orc males are not adverse to mating with human females, and though such matings will not result in the multiple births of orc/orc (in fact resulting in the deaths of the mother due to the accelerated gestation) , the "quality" of the offspring would be slightly higher.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





Elskidor
Rohan


Jan 12 2014, 6:40am

Post #4 of 15 (452 views)
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whatever the reason is for dwarves and orcs to have such few females [In reply to] Can't Post

in comparison to how few women Tolkien wrote about, it is fair to say women and Tolkien were a touchy topic, and he did not quite know how to write about them, lol. Arwen even got tossed to the back of the book with very few details.

Tolkien Elimination Game (Round 4: Men)


http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=701444;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


Remus
Lorien


Jan 12 2014, 11:57am

Post #5 of 15 (428 views)
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Hmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting. I like your idea. But how do these orc females "produce" Uruk-hais that are most likely from men? Other orcs mating with other orcs would probably just do more "classic" orcs and not Uruk-hais?

I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jan 13 2014, 12:28am

Post #6 of 15 (427 views)
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Orcs and Goblin-men [In reply to] Can't Post

My theory combines movie and book information so take this with a grain of salt.

In the movie, Gandalf says that Saruman has "crossed orcs and goblin-men." In the book, goblin-men appear to be the same as (or a breed of) half-orcs. My interpretation is that Saruman has been attempting to crossbreed orcs and Men for some time without much success. Whether this involves orcs actually raping human women or just Saruman using alchemy to inject human genetic material into orcs is unclear. I suspect there might be a little of both as Saruman would attempt various techniques.

The result is the deformed, squint-eyed half-orcs/goblin-men (who, unfortunately, we don't see in the movie). Unsatisfied with this, he has these goblin-men breed with orcs. This balances out the orkish and Mannish traits with the orc traits more dominant. The result is an Uruk. Now Saruman finally has the proper formula. He extracts embryos and blood samples from his orcs and half-orcs and deposits these into the pods we see in the mud-pits. Using sorcery, he speeds up the gestation of the creatures growing inside and Uruk-hai begin emerging from the pods by the thousands.

My theory is similar to yours, Remus, but I felt we needed to account for those goblin-men that Gandalf mentions. This would explain why the Uruks are "super-orcs" but also why they are a different breed from the half-orcs and goblin-men.


Remus
Lorien


Jan 13 2014, 12:38am

Post #7 of 15 (405 views)
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wow [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your ideas. Really nice. I thought on Gandalf comment to Elrond too and i couldn't put my finger on it how to explain that, especially "goblin-men"...

So he takes the orcs and half-orcs, put in the embryos inside them and then bury them in the mud-pits or am i getting this wrong?

I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Jan 13 2014, 1:26am

Post #8 of 15 (400 views)
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She got elevated to a position [In reply to] Can't Post

at the end of the book in a separate Appendix dedicated to only her and Aragorn which would be read by only those who truly have interest in Tolkien's world and will find the details enough and important. Which would have got completely lost if tossed in the stew with all other plot lines in the main story. Just another point of view.

Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on the Main board for the renewed thread!

Middle earth recipes archive

I believe


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jan 13 2014, 6:54am

Post #9 of 15 (399 views)
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Not quite [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I just reread what I wrote and it sounds like a Middle-earth fertility clinic. We can probably leave out the extracting embryos/blood samples bit. More likely, he would breed the orcs and half-orcs together and place the newborn Uruks in the mud-pits to grow them quickly to adulthood.


sevilodorf
Gondor


Jan 14 2014, 12:58am

Post #10 of 15 (361 views)
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maybe they spawn like frogs and salmon [In reply to] Can't Post

The female laying hundreds of eggs to be fertilized by the males, then buried or left in the mud to hatch.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





Remus
Lorien


Jan 14 2014, 12:14pm

Post #11 of 15 (337 views)
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I [In reply to] Can't Post

must say it's really hard trying to come up with a 100% good explanation. And it's quite sad. But i have always seen ordinary orcs as coming from elves, goblins from dwarves, uruks + uruk-hai from men.

I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 14 2014, 4:44pm

Post #12 of 15 (354 views)
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Orkan reproduction [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The female laying hundreds of eggs to be fertilized by the males, then buried or left in the mud to hatch.



Tolkien himself wrote (in a letter?) that Orcs reproduce more-or-less the same way as Elves and Men (and presumably Dwarves and Hobbits). Saruman (and Sauron, in the books) had to work with that, although movie-Saruman evidently used alchemical processes to speed things along. Which makes sense when we consider that he had far less time to build up his army than his literary counterpart.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Jan 14 2014, 5:53pm

Post #13 of 15 (322 views)
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I like that! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
must say it's really hard trying to come up with a 100% good explanation. And it's quite sad. But i have always seen ordinary orcs as coming from elves, goblins from dwarves, uruks + uruk-hai from men.

It's not what Tolkien had in mind, I'm sure, but it works for me.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Remus
Lorien


Jan 14 2014, 10:37pm

Post #14 of 15 (299 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, i like it too. But the scene in FOTR was something PJ & Co made like an "homage" to Tolkiens own words? I guess? Something like "orcs coming up from the ground".

I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Elthir
Gondor

Jan 15 2014, 2:07pm

Post #15 of 15 (311 views)
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book or film? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And it's quite sad. But i have always seen ordinary orcs as coming from elves, goblins from dwarves, uruks + uruk-hai from men.




Since you wrote 'I have always seen...' I assume you mean books. And if so, and since I seemingly have nothing better to do right now [although I'm not sure that's true], I'll add the following possibly annoying opinions...

A) Orcs and goblins are exactly the same thing.

B) Orcs believed [by the wise of Eressea] to be 'made' from corrupted Elves* is one idea according to JRRT, but Tolkien had several ideas about the origin of Orcs [including Orcs from corrupted Men for only one example, Tolkien changing the timeline to make this possible].

JRRT himself never published any of these ideas. He did publish Treebeard saying tha Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, but that doesn't necessarily mean made from Elves, even according to JRR Tolkien [this can be demonstrated actually, for there is at least one phase of Tolkien's writing where orcs were made in mockery of Elves but yet were not made from Elves].

B1) *Christopher Tolkien chose this idea for his constructed Silmarillion published after Tolkien's passing, yes, but that doesn't mean JRR Tolkien would have ultimately made the same choice.

C) Tolkien never seems to entertain Dwarves as being a possible stock for Orcs. He does entertain the notion of Elves, Men, a mix of Elves and Men, beasts, some Maiar -- and at least mentions the Druedain too, but in the context of the Elvish opinion that [From Unfinished Tales]: 'Doubtless Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of men, but the Druedain must have escaped his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband.'


D) In my opinion it is not a given fact that the Uruk-hai have mannish blood. It's one interpretation yes, but there is another possible view that the Uruk-hai -- which means 'Orc-folk' according to JRRT -- are great soldier orcs, while the half-breeds are Tolkien's half-orcs.

E) One thing I think we can say is that Tolkien's Orcs bred after the manner of the Children of Eru, thus sexually.

But if you meant the films then never mind Wink



(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 15 2014, 2:12pm)

 
 

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