Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Peter Jackson ruined Smaug.
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Kendalf
Rohan


Jan 9 2014, 1:24pm

Post #76 of 110 (260 views)
Shortcut
A confrontation was essential...just not this one! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1) pj had to throw in a horrible confrontation between the dwarves and Smaug

2) Were you worried for the dwarves for one second???



1) Do you what? Yes, he did.

a) Tolkien hadn't written one and that's just not how movies work. Jackson (working with $500 million of someone else's money in his pocket and 100 years of cinematic convention behind him) was under all sorts of pressure to put just such a confrontation into his movie.
b) The need for a confrontation was accentuated further by the move towards trilogising the tale; what else was the climax of Part II going to be? Putting off such a confrontation to Part III would have had audiences rolling their eyes. "Where is this bl**dy dragon?!!"

Having said that, I don't for one minute defend the confrontation he actually came up with. What with standing on Smaug's snout and smelting, pouring and moulding 1,000 tonnes of gold in three minutes, the overall lunacy of the entire enterprise didn't quite seem fitting to me.

2) No, I wasn't worried, and this goes back to my last point above. The wholly inexplicable and preposterous nature of the sequence meant all genuine sense of peril evaporated without trace.

Here's hoping Jackson reins it in a bit for the BoFA. I'm sure he will.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Noria
Rohan

Jan 9 2014, 1:31pm

Post #77 of 110 (248 views)
Shortcut
I couldn't disagree more with the OP. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that the whole sequence is very well done and I like it more each time I see it. But others, especially Silverlode and Dormouse have said everything I would have on that score.

The movie is doing very well at the box office and has a high approval rating. AUJ made over a billion dollars and another small fortune on DVD/BR, so it's clear that audiences liked it as well.

I'm sorry that some of you didn't 't like the sequence. But I've learned over the last year that it is the unhappy who take the trouble to voice their complaints. The rest of us can't be bothered to argue a lot of the time so the number of complainers is no indication of the overall opinion of anything.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 9 2014, 4:13pm

Post #78 of 110 (226 views)
Shortcut
My bad [In reply to] Can't Post

I had forgotten about all those times Tolkien wrote about his characters sitting in front of a Balrog having a polite conversation. TongueLaugh

I fully realize what and who Balrogs were. But, it must have put them in a very bad mood to be trapped in the form they were in because the only thing they ever did in Tolkien's stories was barge in in a whirlwind of angry fire and kill people. So, yes, I believe they were sentient and probably extremely intelligent but, by the evidence we have, they were killing machines nonetheless. On the other hand, both Bilbo and Turin had long conversations with dragons and lived to tell the tale.

Dragons were very effective killing machines too, but they also enjoyed having conversations; Balrogs not so much.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 4:28pm

Post #79 of 110 (209 views)
Shortcut
Thanks so much for the laugh.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... this line is preiceless!


Quote
I had forgotten about all those times Tolkien wrote about his characters sitting in front of a Balrog having a polite conversation. TongueLaugh



tarasaurus
Rohan


Jan 9 2014, 4:50pm

Post #80 of 110 (208 views)
Shortcut
This, and [In reply to] Can't Post

in the end, Smaug outwitted them all. He knew by the time he reached Laketown to destroy their people,the company might not have even descended from the mountain yet. He is much quicker, and highly intelligent. I adored the extended scene. I've been waiting to see Smaug on screen for years, and to see more than anticipated of him proved to be a huge treat.

Peter Jackson is not trying to be better than Tolkien. He is just making the film medium his own while staying true to the Tolkien spirit. And yes, I do believe the Tolkien spirit is still in these films despite the naysayers.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 9 2014, 5:10pm

Post #81 of 110 (205 views)
Shortcut
It could have been (a lot) worse ... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
However... Every minute of the extended dwarf garbage that Peter Lucas...I mean Jackson added takes away from the great work everone did.


Imagine the dwarves fighting a giant pussy cat?



The thought petrifies me.



book Gandalf
Rohan


Jan 9 2014, 5:18pm

Post #82 of 110 (197 views)
Shortcut
but [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Imagine the dwarves fighting a giant pussy cat?



The thought petrifies me.


it is technically more accurate than the peter jackson version

but yeah..hair?

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Jan 9 2014, 5:18pm

Post #83 of 110 (191 views)
Shortcut
I Really Beg To Agree to DisAgree [In reply to] Can't Post

That Smaug was "well written." The effects were fine, but the scripting of this entire was absolutely terrible. You don't have to be an independent film maker to see the folly of the writing here. Smaug just destroyed an entire army and "issues" killing a few dwarves - it does lessen him. Now, it would have not been so hard for Jackson to have simply added that he was just "toying" with them or made it absolutely clear. Here you have a dragon that can supposedly here MILES AWAY what is happening and have issues finding a few Dwarves...really....that is just stretching it. Now if one is to argue to it makes more "entertaining" for a crowd that can suspend disbelief to the point that it over rides the sense of good scripting ...then yes, I agree...it is well done. I can honestly say that I enjoyed the scene in general provided I allow myself to not have a brain that just questions a bit of things despite this being a fantasy movie. Yes, I enjoyed it, but I firm that the scripting is still absolutely abhorent. Jackson could have so easily made things the way it is and make it appear that Smaug was just toying with them arrogantly and still had the comedic affects, but instead the we got the Hobbit Indian Jones version. However, as most people say, to each his own.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 9 2014, 5:32pm

Post #84 of 110 (192 views)
Shortcut
From Barely Started Tales: [In reply to] Can't Post

Mmmmm… Good pie.
Yeah, good pie.
So what are those things?
What things?
There, on your shoulder.
Where?
Right there.
Odd… I never noticed that before.
And there’s another one on your other shoulder.
Gah! I’m breaking out!!
-Conversations with a Balrog

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jan 9 2014, 5:45pm

Post #85 of 110 (177 views)
Shortcut
I have to say [In reply to] Can't Post

That Smaug did actually remind me of a giant cat – one that had got the cream – at one stage. That was when he was staring, mesmerised, at the golden statue. At that point his expression also reminded me of Benedict Cumberbatch. I don't know – perhaps the film-makers managed to catch BC's expression really well in this scene and impart it to the dragon?

All fantastic stuff as far as I'm concerned.


In Reply To
Imagine the dwarves fighting a giant pussy cat?



arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 9 2014, 5:46pm

Post #86 of 110 (170 views)
Shortcut
It would make the cat and mouse aspect of the scene clear to viewers! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



burrahobbit
Rohan


Jan 9 2014, 5:47pm

Post #87 of 110 (180 views)
Shortcut
Difference between Bilbo and the dwarves' confrontation [In reply to] Can't Post

The whole Hobbit story is building up to Bilbo's encounter with Smaug- practising burglary with the trolls, riddling with Gollum, finding the ring, proving his ingenuity in the elven halls. Bilbo enters Smaug's lair with courage, hobbit stealth, wit, a magical ring, invisibility and huge element of luck on his side. Bilbo prevents Smaug destroying him through riddling, flattery and quick-thinking.

In the film the dwarves have none of these advantages. Yet they still stand on Smaug's snout, Thorin challenges him to his face, the dwarves pass right underneath him and evade his fiery wrath on several occasions. It really is very different from the book in this regard. While I certainly don't agree that PJ "ruined Smaug", he did diminish him through some very over-the-top scenes. And it's a criticism several commentators have made, e.g. John Rateliffe-
http://sacnoths.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/the-desolation.html


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 6:06pm

Post #88 of 110 (170 views)
Shortcut
Which character was supposed to say that Smaug was toying with them? [In reply to] Can't Post

Film is a visual medium, and sometimes it's more effective to tells the story visually than to put lines in someone's mouth. I think the whole scene was exceptionally well written, choreographed and thought through - to the extent that some of the machinery and layout of the mines and forges had already appeared in the prologue of AUJ, so it was already familiar.

As far as 'toying' goes, I think that applies more to Smaug's encounters with Bilbo. Smaug could kill Bilbo at once, but he enjoys the conversation, and is keen to see what information he can extract. Once the dwarves are in on the scene, Smaug would kill them but he has the problem that they are very small, and are exploiting halls, galleries and passages they know very well - and in most instances are able to use he cannot. Once you've got past the suspending of belief necessary to cope with a very large dragon I don't think any further suspension of belief is required. The mechanics of the thing have been worked out so carefully - on the rare occasions that the dwarves are in the open, exposed to the dragon, there's always a visual reason why he can't strike them at that moment, or why his strike misses. The analogy of the fly in the room is a perfect one to explain the situation. A human armed with a fly swatter is infinitely more powerful than a few flies, yet the flies can run (or fly) rings round the human.

Even the moment when Thorin balances on Smaug's snout, which so many people don't like, seems eminently sensible to me. You're being chased by a humungous beast that can breathe fire and has very large teeth. If you find yourself that close, is there a safer place to stand than above its mouth and nostrils, out of range of both dangers?

And as for the scripting, would you seriously dismiss such powerful lines as 'If this is to end in fire.....', and Thorin's taunting of Smaug as 'absolutely abhorrent'?


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 9 2014, 6:06pm

Post #89 of 110 (168 views)
Shortcut
Lol, or even worse [In reply to] Can't Post

giant hairball! ShockedLaugh


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2014, 6:08pm

Post #90 of 110 (167 views)
Shortcut
... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

 photo 1bf768b4-0b33-420d-9c59-41ea3cf03def_zps1d44c4cf.jpg


Rickster
Rohan

Jan 9 2014, 6:32pm

Post #91 of 110 (164 views)
Shortcut
Dragons are not made [In reply to] Can't Post

dragons are not made to follow dwarfs in narrow caves


So he never looked stupid
and PJ did a GREAT job
This was less silly than the singing and dancing in Goblin town..
The only part in all the movies so far that made me think hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2014, 6:55pm

Post #92 of 110 (152 views)
Shortcut
well the singing in goblin town was them trying to stay true [In reply to] Can't Post

to the book which is why PJ cut the scene out in the TE.

 photo 1bf768b4-0b33-420d-9c59-41ea3cf03def_zps1d44c4cf.jpg


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Jan 9 2014, 6:57pm

Post #93 of 110 (146 views)
Shortcut
I dunno... [In reply to] Can't Post

giant flaming hairballs shooting at the dwarves could look pretty awesome! The stench alone should be enough drop 13 dwarves and 1 hobbit (book numbers, of course). Sounds like a plan, to me! ;)

**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011

(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Jan 9 2014, 6:58pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 7:20pm

Post #94 of 110 (129 views)
Shortcut
But where is Mr. Smudge's face?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I love that version. Smile

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 7:22pm

Post #95 of 110 (136 views)
Shortcut
Yes, it's different from the book... [In reply to] Can't Post

.. and I can understand why anyone who was hoping for an adaptation that stayed close to the book wouldn't like it.

My own feeling, though, is that for this particular version it was necessary to allow the dwarves - Thorin especially - the chance to confront Smaug. And they did have advantages, which we see them using to the full. Knowledge of the inside of the Mountain, for a start. They were able to exploit tunnels and passages that were too small for Smaug; they knew every doorway. they knew the machinery in the mines and forgesand what it could do. They knew about the statue in the Hall of Kings, and knew it was all set up and ready to cast, if only the furnaces could be lit. I think these things balance the advantages which you quite rightly say Bilbo had. As for standing on Smaug's snout, surely it's the only safe place when faced with a creature that breathes fire? Above the place the fire comes out, and therefore out-of-range?

I'm sure other commentators have criticised the scene and they're entitled to their view, but it doesn't change mine. I'm just engaging with the film as I saw it, and with my own feelings about it. Anyone who enjoys Peter Jackson's films surely recognises the scale of his imagination. He likes to make every fall steeper, every precipice bigger, every drama more dramatic. That's his style: to ask for something different would be to drain the life from his films - he has to make them the way he sees them. For me it's a style that works, probably because it's the opposite of the kind of thing I would do myself, so it challenges me to think beyond my own idea of the way things would happen. And as for diminishing Smaug, I don't accept that it does. Smaug is terrifying - bigger and bolder than any other dragon I've ever seen on screen or am ever likely to see, and this scene gave us the chance to experience more of just what it meant to face him.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jan 9 2014, 7:48pm

Post #96 of 110 (124 views)
Shortcut
i know that book smaug was enjoying himself and trying to get information [In reply to] Can't Post

but i cannot agree that a dragon that does not gobble you up when you could reach out and touch its snout with your hand is as threatening as one that would and that is why tolkien did not write that scene as such, the entire feeling of that scene in the book is if smaug manages to pinpoint bilbo he will grab him and it will all be over, which for me is much more tense than a dragon that goes right up to him repeatedly. What the movie did emphasise which is threatening and scary was the cruel aspect of a predator playing with it's prey. Saying that, that part of smaugs scenes was not like the sequence with the dwarves, it was still viable, just written different to tolkien, the dwarves were in all sorts of situations of false peril and we see this time and time again in many movies, not just PJ's. As i said in my first post it was largely enjoyable fun, I just don't bother looking at the holes too much when viewing otherwise I wouldn't bother paying to see PJ's work anymore.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Jan 9 2014, 7:51pm)


KingTurgon
Rohan


Jan 9 2014, 9:44pm

Post #97 of 110 (102 views)
Shortcut
Regarding Star Wars [In reply to] Can't Post

I would argue a lot of fans like the Prequels as well. I think people are way to prone to generalize when discussing the Prequels (films which I happen to love).


Elskidor
Rohan


Jan 9 2014, 9:56pm

Post #98 of 110 (86 views)
Shortcut
Yeah, I don't get the hate for Star Wars prequels [In reply to] Can't Post

I really enjoy them, but I'm not emotionally attached to the original trilogy where it bothered me that they were different. Heck, besides for the choice in actors and the unbelievable lack of chemistry between the love birds, I think Star Wars prequels are pretty great.

Tolkien Elimination Game (Round 3: Villains)


http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=697710;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


KingTurgon
Rohan


Jan 9 2014, 10:01pm

Post #99 of 110 (80 views)
Shortcut
Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I like them more than LOTR even. Probably because that is what I watched during my childhood (I am currently in college).


tsmith675
Gondor


Jan 9 2014, 10:15pm

Post #100 of 110 (81 views)
Shortcut
Personally... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't mind the prequels. I definitely don't hate them. They just aren't the originals, for sure. But the prequels weren't generally well-recieved. There are people that like them for sure, but, the Hobbit films so far are being reviewed much better by the general audience. I'm not generalizing, I'm just observing based on these movie websites that th Star Wars prequels aren't as acclaimed by fans as the Hobbit films are.

"This day we FIGHT!"

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.