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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Help settle a family debate...
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athenslotr
The Shire

Jan 9 2014, 2:31pm

Post #1 of 39 (623 views)
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Help settle a family debate... Can't Post

and bring peace to our household...

I searched the forums for this and found a few references - but no full blown discussion.

Aragorn and his confrontation with the King of the Dead - Aragorn reveals Anduril, swords clash, and the King of the Dead says "That _____ was broken!" Aragorn replies "It has been remade"

Clearly, the King of the Dead says "that blade was broken" right? Right. Lets move on.

But wait, my wife thinks he says "that line was broken" which makes absolutely no sense at all, but she is firm in her belief.

Can I trust the subtitles on the DVD/blu-ray as definitive? No. A judgment like this is best left to the only source I trust - TORn

So help me out - I can take the heat if I'm wrong!


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 9 2014, 2:55pm

Post #2 of 39 (349 views)
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I agree with you - "blade". [In reply to] Can't Post

However, give your wife some credit, "line" would make sense also for the word spoken by the King of the Dead, as one can refer to a "line" of kings (meaning, continuous, unbroken series of kings all descended from the previous ones..., as for example in a statement like "Azog is determined to wipe out the line of Durin.").

However, Aragorn's reply makes far more sense with "blade".
Smile



(This post was edited by arithmancer on Jan 9 2014, 2:56pm)


athenslotr
The Shire

Jan 9 2014, 2:59pm

Post #3 of 39 (326 views)
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great point [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking blood line - but you're right, "line of kings" would make sense. Point to the wife!


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 9 2014, 3:03pm

Post #4 of 39 (374 views)
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Your wife is right. [In reply to] Can't Post

"That line was broken!" That is what I hear, and as you say, that's what the subtitles say.

The King of the Dead most likely meant line of Isildur. Only the heir of Isildur could wield Narsil, and it could very well have been the belief that the line of Isildur died with him and his sons at the Gladden Fields. There was no way of knowing that Isildur's youngest son escaped to Rivendell.

Though, it doesn't particularly matter if it is "blade" or "line". The sentence, and Aragorn's reply, is a play on the connection between the Sword that was Broken being remade and the line of the Kings that was broken being renewed. Both words work and fit.

Smile

Edit: I was too late replying! Wink



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jan 9 2014, 3:03pm)


emre43
Lorien

Jan 9 2014, 3:27pm

Post #5 of 39 (332 views)
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Precisely [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always thought it said 'line' referring to Isildur's line


athenslotr
The Shire

Jan 9 2014, 4:47pm

Post #6 of 39 (325 views)
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(Delete thread!) (Delete thread!) [In reply to] Can't Post

looking like I might be eating crow....2 to 1 "line".


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 4:59pm

Post #7 of 39 (297 views)
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I've also always heard it as "that *line* is broken" [In reply to] Can't Post

But, as others have said, "blade" is the correct line. I kind of like that it can be heard both ways. Both make sense and, in my personal head-canon, I like the tie between Aragorn's family and the sword.



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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2014, 5:40pm

Post #8 of 39 (322 views)
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I just popped the DVD in and turned on the captions... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and they agree with your wife. It said "line". I also did re-wind, turned up the sound, closed my eyes and listened veeeeery carefully and definitely heard "line".

Don't you know it's a universal truth that your wife is always right?Wink


KasDel
Rivendell


Jan 9 2014, 5:53pm

Post #9 of 39 (296 views)
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Yes Dear! [In reply to] Can't Post

enough said!Pirate

KasDel the Last

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." Gildor


athenslotr
The Shire

Jan 9 2014, 8:51pm

Post #10 of 39 (281 views)
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She keeps telling me that... [In reply to] Can't Post

guess its time to listen!


cats16
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2014, 9:01pm

Post #11 of 39 (276 views)
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I've always hear "blade" in my head. [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting to hear thoughts about "line". As already stated, they both work very well contextually.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 9:06pm

Post #12 of 39 (272 views)
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I have always heard 'blade' ... with the modifer [In reply to] Can't Post

that it sounds like there is a longish i- sound in it, like he says 'blide'. So if the subtitling says 'line' with the long i- sound I would not be surprised. That works very well actually.
I agree Cats - both words actually work.


ADDED: Of course 'blade' works better with Aragorn's answer: "It has been remade." Would the line have been 'remade'? Hmmmm.

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 9 2014, 9:09pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 9:06pm

Post #13 of 39 (255 views)
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Very neat question! Thanks! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





athenslotr
The Shire

Jan 9 2014, 9:15pm

Post #14 of 39 (257 views)
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Exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn's response has been my go-to reason for why the King of the Dead says "blade". Even if it is the line of Kings, would he say that line was "remade"? Wouldn't it be something like "restored" (just brainstorming - I'm sure there are better choices)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 9 2014, 9:24pm

Post #15 of 39 (248 views)
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Right? A puzzle! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Aragorn's response has been my go-to reason for why the King of the Dead says "blade". Even if it is the line of Kings, would he say that line was "remade"? Wouldn't it be something like "restored" (just brainstorming - I'm sure there are better choices)

Yes, just going by sound I thought it could be 'line'...but then I remembered Aragorn's answer and that's when I added that comment. So now I'm back to thinking 'blade', just pronounced a little oddly!
That's why I love discussions here, you never know what you will get our of it!



Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





athenslotr
The Shire


Jan 9 2014, 9:34pm

Post #16 of 39 (237 views)
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Great points all and thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

So in the end - no clear consensus other than that both words fit and both would make sense considering the context (and heck, maybe PJ intended for it to work both ways and be both words).

Though my wife has the subtitles as some good solid evidence. In the interest of self preservation and family harmony - I concede the point to my wife (don't tell her, but when we watch I'm still going to secretly think its "blade")


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2014, 10:31pm

Post #17 of 39 (230 views)
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I hear 'blade' [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Aragorn's follow up is,'It has been remade', so it makes more sense to me.....

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2014, 10:57pm

Post #18 of 39 (247 views)
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I've been thinking about this and have a theory. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although some have said that Aragorn's response makes more sense if the word is "blade", I think with a little extrapolation it could make just as much sense with the word "line" as well.

First of all, we need to ask "How did the line of the king get broken?" or maybe an even better question would be "How does the King of the Dead think the line got broken?"

I'm running on memory and a pretty limited knowledge of what happened between Isildur and the men who are now the ghost people so someone please correct me if I'm wrong but here's my understanding of the situation as I learned it on a LOTR wiki site:
"In the Second Age, a people related to the Dunlendings had lived in the White Mountains, and they had for a time served the Dark Lord Sauron. They later swore allegiance to Isildur of Gondor and Arnor, but betrayed him during the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and refused to fight on either side. For this reason, Isildur cursed them, proclaiming that, if the Alliance triumphed, they would linger in the mountains until one of his heirs called them again to fight against Sauron. Isildur's curse succeeded: their people dwindled and eventually died out, until only their ghosts remained at the end of the Third Age."

So, the King of the Dead knew that only and heir of Isildur could call them to fight, but (assuming that he used the word "line") also seemed to think the line was broken. Again, I have a limited knowledge of Aragorn's lineage but if I'm not mistaken, his father Arathorn was killed when Aragorn was young and Aragorn basically grew up in Rivendell with his identity being kept a secret even to him for quite some time. I guess this may be how the King of the Dead thought the line was broken? One could even say the line was broken again when (in the movie anyway) Aragorn chose exile over kingship.

Now that he has fully accepted his destiny of kingship, then the line of the king has basically been remade right? Where once the line was broken with the death of Arathorn and supposed lack of an heir and then broken again when Aragorn refused to be king, it has been remade because he has taken up his duty to become king.

That's my theory. I'm sticking to it.Smile


cats16
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2014, 11:26pm

Post #19 of 39 (225 views)
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Hmm... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
ADDED: Of course 'blade' works better with Aragorn's answer: "It has been remade." Would the line have been 'remade'? Hmmmm.



Very good point here. I think that "It has been remade" is a very strange answer to the statement: "That line was broken!"

And, considering that Aragorn, at this moment, has Anduril against the neck of the King of the Dead, I think both of them (especially the guy with a sword to his throat) are talking about the blade.

So, I agree with your agreement. Angelic Nice that we can talk about something like this, even more than ten years after ROTK.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 10 2014, 12:16am

Post #20 of 39 (212 views)
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So true Cats - I still love discussing LOTR! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Angelic Nice that we can talk about something like this, even more than ten years after ROTK.


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





simplyaven
Grey Havens


Jan 10 2014, 1:32am

Post #21 of 39 (214 views)
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Blade, of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know what subtitles say but I've done a SCOD on this part of the movie and I know it by heart. First. Second, the conversation takes place right after Anduril clashes with the King Of Dead's sword which was supposed to remain unchallenged just like Legolas's arrow passed through the king. So, the whole point is that the king of dead faces Anduril and then tests it because he knows "that blade was broken", so he doesn't believe he is summoned by the King of Gondor. To which Aragorn replies "it's been remade". The blade which proved he had returned - the King, and which only could challenge the sword of the King of Dead.

It's the whole thing that makes it "blade". While the line was no doubt believed to be broken as well, it had no place at this moment as it was all about Anduril as a proof of the return of the king.

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DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 10 2014, 7:44am

Post #22 of 39 (225 views)
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I've come to a conclusion having seen everyone's replies ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Answering: "Do Balrogs have wings?" seems to be an easier question than whether it is "blade" or "line". Wink



jenfuss
Registered User

Jan 10 2014, 2:58pm

Post #23 of 39 (184 views)
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Team Blade! [In reply to] Can't Post

I worked several years as a court reporter and spent a lot of time listening to backup audio, trying to figure out exactly what word a fast-talking or mumbling witness or attorney was saying. I just watched that scene with headphones on, and I am convinced he is saying "blade," with an accent. I hear the "b" and a softer "d" in there. And if you look closely, his lips come together to make the "b" sound. That wouldn't happen with an "l."


(This post was edited by jenfuss on Jan 10 2014, 3:13pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 10 2014, 3:20pm

Post #24 of 39 (182 views)
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I haven't looked at the footage... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but, being just slightly hard of hearing, I am an intuitive lip reader and looking at the mouth is what I would do. If his lips come together, that would be all the proof I'd need.

And I will say that, as a person who uses closed caption whenever possible, I have never found a mistake in the LOTR closed captions.

and, edit to add... I worked on the LOTR score lyrics for close to 10 years. Over those 10 years, I worked with a dozen or more people, many who were - like me - meticulous in their work and standards for deciding what we were hearing.

Without going into great detail, I can tell you... one can be convinced they are hearing something that is completely wrong.

So, trying to justify 'line' over 'blade' because it makes more sense and that's what one thinks it sounds like is an approach. But not, imo, a productive approach. Given the closed captions and observation of the lips indicate 'blade', my 10 years of experience with similar work would go with 'blade' without hesitation. :-)


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(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 10 2014, 3:25pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 10 2014, 3:59pm

Post #25 of 39 (193 views)
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I've watched it (yet) again ... [In reply to] Can't Post

I can still definitely hear "line", but it actually looks like he is saying "blade". "Line" doesn't match up with the movement in the mouth. If I listen to it, I hear "line". If I watch it on mute, I see "blade".

Perhaps this is where the confusion is coming from? Maybe the sentence was changed in post-production, and they changed "blade" to "line"?

Curiouser and curiouser.


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