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why does gandalf agree to go through moria ?

shaundobson
Rivendell

Jan 7 2014, 10:45am

Post #1 of 21 (416 views)
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why does gandalf agree to go through moria ? Can't Post

Surely he must have know that a balrog and thousands of orcs within Moria would have been a major problem for the fellowship ?

This decision puzzles me


squire
Valinor


Jan 7 2014, 12:09pm

Post #2 of 21 (310 views)
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He only knows that it is dark and dangerous, not that it is inhabited [In reply to] Can't Post

As he explains to the Fellowship, he (as well as Aragorn) have passed through the Mines long before. Then he had found it frightening, confusing, and perilous both spiritually and physically - without the presence of orcs or the balrog. Neither the orcs nor the demon were in residence - or at least, awake to his presence - during his adventure. When Pippin drops the stone, Gandalf observes that it 'disturbed' something that should have been left undisturbed, but he does not know for sure what that something is - and hopes they won't have to find out.



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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 7 2014, 3:42pm

Post #3 of 21 (286 views)
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For one thing, it was his own suggestion. [In reply to] Can't Post

Moria seemed like the best route to avoid detection by the Enemy. Both Gandalf and Aragorn had traveled that way before and they were familiar with many of the dangers. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2014, 9:23pm

Post #4 of 21 (244 views)
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to get to the other side // [In reply to] Can't Post

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2014, 9:23pm

Post #5 of 21 (261 views)
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apologies... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... but the question was begging for just such a response.

: )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 7 2014, 9:56pm

Post #6 of 21 (224 views)
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You, good sir, win the internent today. :D / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Jan 7 2014, 10:41pm

Post #7 of 21 (225 views)
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Or maybe that should be [In reply to] Can't Post

Better the Balrog you know than the devil you don't!


book Gandalf
Rohan


Jan 7 2014, 10:49pm

Post #8 of 21 (415 views)
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none shall pass [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Surely he must have know that a balrog and thousands of orcs within Moria would have been a major problem for the fellowship ?

This decision puzzles me


the answer lies in the book!!!!!

like th eother excellent poster already said, to get to other side, the pass of cahadhras was blocked, the south road would have taken them too close to saruman..hence taking moria! but maybe the question should be why didnt they go other ways, through the other high passes?

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Ethel Duath
Valinor


Jan 8 2014, 3:19am

Post #9 of 21 (205 views)
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Winter, winter everywhere [In reply to] Can't Post

is my best guess. Every high point would be very cold and snowy (ask Aunt Dora!Smile). And the Misty Mountains are known to be orc-ridden.


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Jan 8 2014, 3:17pm

Post #10 of 21 (183 views)
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I suspect this question is based on the film [In reply to] Can't Post

not on the book. As others have pointed out, in the book, Gandalf favors going through Moria from before the group sets out from Rivendell. He believes that the pass of Caradhras and the Gap of Rohan are both watched, and therefore the more hidden route is the best. He has no idea that the Balrog is in there; no one knows about it. He might suspect that there are orcs, but he doesn't know it.

In the film, there is no logic to the decision, in my opinion. Why would Gandalf tell Frodo to decide without at least explaining the possible advantages and dangers to him? Letting the least experienced and informed person decide is absurd. One of several big logical lapses in the film's narrative.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 8 2014, 3:59pm

Post #11 of 21 (184 views)
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Book or film, I think that the answer remains the same [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly Gandalf was aware that Moria was infested with goblins. However, the company was small and they might be able to avoid detection. Gandalf did not necessarily know the nature of Durin's Bane, but even if he knew about or suspected the Balrog, he coudl still hope that it remained inactive.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Jan 8 2014, 4:20pm

Post #12 of 21 (202 views)
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Going by evidence in the book, [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf does not know "certainly" that there are any goblins in Moria, let alone an infestation of them. He says:

If there are Orcs there, it may prove ill for u, that is true. But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.

There is even a chance that Dwarves are there, and that in some deep hall of his fathers, Balin son of Fundin maybe be found.


He also did not suspect that there was a Balrog in Moria. When the Balrog shows up, Gandalf's reaction is: "'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.'" That is, he understand what the powerful force he encountered in the struggle over the door in the Chamber of Mazarbul.

Later, when the Fellowship tells the tale of Gandalf's fall to Celeborn, Galadriel, and the Elves, Celeborn says, "We have long feared that under Caradhras a terror slept." Even he, who has lived near the entrance to Moria, doesn't know what that terror is. Clearly Gandalf didn't, either. But if Gandalf knew of the Elves' fear of a "terror" in Moria, he, too, would probably think that it is asleep far down in the mines.

It's only in the film that it is stated (by Saruman) that Gandalf knows that the Dwarves awakened the Balrog. So the issue of going through Moria is quite different in the book and the film--virtually the opposite of each other.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 9 2014, 10:50am

Post #13 of 21 (151 views)
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In the film version [In reply to] Can't Post

I rather like it that he leaves it up to Frodo to decide. Everyone else has their own agendas or motivations for going/not going which will influence the Quest if they make the decision.. Gandalf leaves it to Frodo... leaving his choice more open to the Will of Good or gut call on what to do.



6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
3rd draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - January 2, 2014



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"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



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acheron
Gondor


Jan 9 2014, 12:40pm

Post #14 of 21 (147 views)
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wakka wakka wakka! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 10 2014, 12:00pm

Post #15 of 21 (107 views)
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Baaa-dum-bum :D // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
3rd draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - January 2, 2014



sample

"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists (updated soon)


Hun200kmh
The Shire


Jan 10 2014, 5:14pm

Post #16 of 21 (109 views)
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Two versions make this happen, but ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... thank you Kristin, for setting this straight.

People nowadays have two versions of LOTR available to them (Tolkien's and Jackson's) and the first thing to understand when reading any question is what version are we talking about. This is even more dangerous with LOTR than it is with the Hobbit, because in the first trilogy both versions are still very close (and that gets confusing) , while in this second trilogy one has to dig deep to find the original version, so it's a more clear cut issue.

Movie Gandalf is twice a fool. First, because he knowingly picks the "balrog way". Second, because he places that decision on Frodo's shoulders.

PS - Even I sometimes mix both versions in my head and need to "think again". It happened yesterday when I was watching a condensated Youtube Version (it has flaws, but I have to say it was an enjoyable hour or so) of the Entire History of Middle Earth, split into 7 YT clips.

In the last one, we finally reach the War of the Ring, the author uses mostly PJ's imagery. And it was almost a surprise to see the Aragorn's ships arrive at the Pellenor Fields and read the following subtitle: "On a fleet of enemy ships Aragorn arrived. With him were other Rangers and many reinforcements from southern fiefdoms of Gondor"

And I go "... and an army of green ghosts!"


EDIT - Here the link to that 7th part of the "History of Middle Earth". The bit I mentioned happens at around 10:55 into this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqXuvckQXK8


(This post was edited by Hun200kmh on Jan 10 2014, 5:18pm)


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Jan 10 2014, 7:44pm

Post #17 of 21 (91 views)
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You're quite welcome, Hun200kmh! [In reply to] Can't Post

Having been involved so long in writing about the films and being now in the midst of writing about the books, I have to keep very careful track of what happens in each. At times, it would be so easy to mix them up, and I often go back to check and make sure I'm remembering correctly.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 10 2014, 11:56pm

Post #18 of 21 (92 views)
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Well, they nearly *did* get through without being noticed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Until Pippin threw a rock (book) or skull (movie) down the well, that is. Before that, the only creature who knew they were sneaking through the upper halls was Gollum, who was himself "sneaking". Even when the dwarves originally woke the Balrog it was because they delved too deep. And the first sign of trouble for both the Fellowship and Balin's Folk was "drums in the deep". If Pippin could have kept his hands to himself they might well have snuck all the way to the Bridge of Khazad-dum and the Eastern Gate without anyone knowing, as presumably Gandalf and Aragorn had done before. The Balrog and the orcs lived down in the deeps and apparently the Watcher didn't have a pool-to-cave communication system to warn them. Come to that, the Watcher might not have woken if Boromir (book) or Merry (movie) hadn't thrown a rock into the pool.

And the moral of the story is: Travelers in need of secrecy should not throw stones. Or perhaps: Evil is just a stone's throw away.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 12 2014, 3:19pm

Post #19 of 21 (77 views)
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Ha! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And the moral of the story is: Travelers in need of secrecy should not throw stones. Or perhaps: Evil is just a stone's throw away.



Queue the Rocky & Bullwinkle music!

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Na Vedui
Rohan


Jan 12 2014, 6:26pm

Post #20 of 21 (72 views)
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In a present-day version... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Pippin (who else!) would be the one who didn't switch off his mobile phone. The Balrog would be rudely awakened from his ancient slumbers by a tinny rendering of the Green Dragon ale song, and quite justifiably irritated.


elaen32
Gondor


Jan 12 2014, 6:35pm

Post #21 of 21 (57 views)
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Lol- this made me giggle Na Vedui!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!


 
 

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