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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Sauron with Orcs vs. White Council: How Would You Go About It?
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Jan 4 2014, 3:31pm

Post #1 of 36 (784 views)
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Sauron with Orcs vs. White Council: How Would You Go About It? Can't Post

Just for fun, and setting aside who is more powerful amongst the White Council (The White Council only takes a few Elves with them; maybe even Arwen).

My take:

Elrond & Galadriel, being more agile than the Istaris mainly deal with the soldiers. Since we have seen how dear Legolas and Tauriel have such almost ridiculous type of feats in their battle scenes...Elrond and Galadriel (and even Arwen, Celeborn or Haldir, and better yet, Glorifindel) actions scenes should be next to none. Galadriel sings the wargs into sleep and uses the Phial to destroy the spell of concealment. Galadriel and Elrond (as well as the others) does more like Ninja stealth battle but when they strike Orcs fly a few feet away (just like Sauron in the initial battle). Saruman uses his voice to ensorcel some of the orcs into turning against their comrades. Radagast frees Gandalf but just before he fully does so, he is killed by Sauron, and hence Saruman arrives (is he confirmed to appear at Dol Guldur?) and battles Sauron (light battle, as with Gandalf). Gandalf then joins in the fray (using Radagast's staff) while Elrond tries to help Radagast. Saruman and Gandalf are now at a Stalemate with Sauron, and Galadriel breaks it by using her Phial once again to break the stalemate, causing Sauron to flee. I am not sure in the end if I will have Galadriel destroy Dol Guldur after the battle as it wasn't supposed to be in the books, but if she does, I hope somewhere there will be reference as to what she learned from Melian.

OR

Gandalf is to weak to fight in this battle after being captured. Elrond leads the elves to tackle the orcs with same ninja action sequence (lol), an Galadriel, Radagast and Saruman battles Sauron directly, but in the process poor rad dude is killed

Or

Radagast brings his army of animals (no...just like Narnia..lol), Saruman sings the blues, Elrond deals with the orcs, and Galadriel causes Sauron to flee (making Ainur O. nightmare come true)

of course, everything changes if some of the Nazguls were in the scene....then that would be interesting.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 4 2014, 4:03pm

Post #2 of 36 (440 views)
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Galadriel does destroy Dol Guldur in the books... [In reply to] Can't Post

... in the 'Tale of Years' [LOTR Appendix B]. It happens later, after the fall of Sauron: 'and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.'

I think Saruman is supposed to be appearing at Dol Guldur, though I'm not sure.

And for my part, I really dislike the idea of the Phial of Galadriel being used as any sort of weapon. The light of Earendil's star - a light in dark places, when all other lights go out - a sign of hope and the healing magic of the elves, not something for zapping the enemy.


KingTurgon
Rohan


Jan 4 2014, 4:14pm

Post #3 of 36 (400 views)
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Well kind of [In reply to] Can't Post

She doesn't actually destroy it in this fight though. Saruman causes the Necromancer to flee, at least in the books. After the War of the Ring, Celeborn and Thranduil conquer Dol Guldur, and then Galadriel destroys the foundations.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 4 2014, 4:33pm

Post #4 of 36 (363 views)
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As I said "It happens later...." // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jan 4 2014, 4:34pm

Post #5 of 36 (380 views)
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Mostly a group effort... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I'd prefer Saruman be the major factor, like he was in the books. According to Gandalf, "It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove [Sauron] from Dol Guldur.'

Saruman and Gandalf (and even Radagast) taking on Sauron in tandem would be great.

Oh, and NO to Radagast dying.


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jan 4 2014, 4:56pm

Post #6 of 36 (384 views)
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My ideas: [In reply to] Can't Post

Aside from using the Phial as a weapon and the nature of Radagast's death, I could use your first option as a viable scene.

But I have my own ideas (and hopes):

I would prefer Dol Guldur to be left nearly empty, save for Azog and a dozen or so orcs (Bolg can go to the BoFA). I would like the Nazgul to be there so the High Fells scene wouldn't be pointless.

I think it would be artistically appropriate to show the WC silently going across the bridge, creating suspense and building up to the grand finale. Something magically ethereal.

I would like to see Galadriel demonstrate some battle skills, but it shouldn't be as gratuitous as the Tauriel fight scenes (though they were fun to watch). Perhaps something small and possibly akin to what we see of her in the uncanonical "Guardians of Middle-Earth" game trailer. Maybe Azog could attack her, then wished he didn't. The WC should show really no restraint in their power. The orcs should be dealt with swiftly.

Saruman should be heading the attack and doing the heavy lifting. Radagast, should definitely be present and helping. I really want to see him using his power. I agree with Salmacis81 that it should be a group effort mostly and seeing the three wizards using their powers in unison would be great.

I could easily see PJ merging events and having Galadriel destroy Dol Guldur. This should be her "big" moment, but I certainly hope we see her aid Saruman in driving Sauron away.

As for the Nazgul.....AinurOlorin would be delighted to see Gandalf engage them in battle and I concur. But since he just got tossed around and captured by Sauron, he'll probably be needing some help from Elrond or someone.

In hindsight, this was probably an incoherent post of random ideas, but I "am" the Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth so.....yeah!

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...

(This post was edited by Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth on Jan 4 2014, 4:59pm)


Elskidor
Rohan


Jan 4 2014, 9:01pm

Post #7 of 36 (283 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a feeling Dol Guldur will be empty for the most part. Will Azog be gone or shall he remain to protect his master? If so, will he die at Dol Guldur as Saron flees? I'd prefer just Saruman, Galadriel, Ragagast, Elrond and Gandalf be there though. Those are the characters the movies focus on, so too many more main characters the movies have never spent time on will make it a little awkward.

Tolkien Elimination Game (Round 3: Villains)


http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=697710;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 4 2014, 9:19pm

Post #8 of 36 (291 views)
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Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt we'll see Saruman doing any heavy lifting, Christopher Lee is in his 90's.

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


Faleel
Rohan

Jan 4 2014, 9:20pm

Post #9 of 36 (277 views)
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So? [In reply to] Can't Post

Stunt doubles and CGI exist...


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 4 2014, 9:29pm

Post #10 of 36 (286 views)
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Gandalf in Dol Guldur ... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am sure that isn't Ian McKellen we see running through Dol Guldur in DOS. It just doesn't look like his gait, especially judging by scenes where it clearly is him running.

If they can do that to Gandalf, they can do the same with Saruman and both be believable/lifelike.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 4 2014, 9:29pm

Post #11 of 36 (287 views)
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My scenario is closer to the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I've literally had years to think about it and many of Peter Jackson's decisions are are not ones I would have made.

The basic set-up: The White Council is aware that the Necromancer is Sauron, but Saruman the White--the leader of the Council and the head of the Istari--has assured everyone that Sauron cannot possibly have the Master Ring because it was swept into the sea long ago (even though the White Wizard thinks otherwise). This presumes that Gandalf has not been captured in a new investigation of Dol Guldur nor is there any reason to expect support from Beorn. Sauron's spies have alerted him that the White Council is moving against him and he has laid his own plans. His forces at Dol Guldur consist principally of Orcs and Men--Easterlings and evil Woodmen that he has swayed to his side. The Nine are preparing for his return to Barad-dur. He keeps in contact through a messenger--a Vampire, like his servant Thuringwethil in the Second Age (perhaps even the same creature).

The assault: The final debate of the White Council concerning the Necromancer could have happened in Rivendell before Midsummer, while Bilbo and the Dwarves were still resting there. Saruman has been the principal hold-out. Now, after learning from his own spies that Sauron's forces are searching for the Ring in the Gladden Fields, he agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur. The Council is to gather its might and muster at Rhosgobel in one month (mid-August--or the end of August if we are using the Shire Reckoning). Gandalf accompanies the Company of Thorin across the Misty Mountains but, due to complications, is unable to part from Bilbo and the Dwarves until they reach the eaves of Mirkwood Forest.

Gandalf reaches Rhosgobel on the horse he borrowed from Beorn. Lady Galadriel has brought Galadrim with her, mostly bowmen and spearmen. Saruman has brought plans that he has devised along with kegs of incendiary substances and other surprises. Radagast is using beasts and birds as spies, but the unnatural creatures of Mirkwood have made it hard on them. Elrond has remained in Rivendell to ensure that the Elven Ring, Vilya, stays out of Sauron's hands in case the attack fails. He has still sent an impressive force consisting of his sons Elladan and Elrohir, his councellor Erestor, the Noldo Glorfindel, and many other Elves of his household skilled with bow and sword. A volunteer force of Northern Rangers acts as scouts and a reserve. Cirdan of the Grey Havens has sent his own Elven troops led by Galdor. Upon Gandalf's arrival, they march on Dol Guldur.

Sauron has already sent some of his troops away by secret paths to rendezvous at the eastern edge of the Narrows of Mirkwood. Those remaining are mainly Men and Orcs (perhaps Trolls, if there is enough cover to protect them from sunlight). The defence is a feint; Sauron makes an appearance to let himself be seen by the Council, but then leaves by secret means under cover of the battle to return to Mordor. At some point during the battle a sally point opens and the Council is beset by a pack of Werewolves--huge, Warg-like demons able to cast fell spells. Galadriel's Ring, weilded secretly, repels the worst of the attacks. Some of Saruman's devices overwhelm the senses of the defenders with colored lights and flames; others blast openings in walls and gates. Sauon's Vampire messenger may be captured or slain.

After the battle: Once the fortress is theirs, the White Council finds that Sauron has fled. Assuming a total victory, the tower and dungeons are searched. Traps are found and sprung (for better or worse). Guardians left behind in the dungeons are discovered: Trolls, Wights, huge Orcs. Prisoners are freed. The clean-up is finished about the same time that Bilbo and the Dwarves reach Lake-town (September 22).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 4 2014, 9:31pm)


Name
Rohan


Jan 4 2014, 9:56pm

Post #12 of 36 (262 views)
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Ok. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's my quick ideas.

The 9 should play a pretty important role, as many here agree with.
Azog will be present, and be killed by Beorn. As we have seen, Azog has killed Beorn's family, and I think even enslaved Beorn himself, judging from the movie. So Beorn gets revenge, and then proceeds with Gandalf to the mntn. where he kills Bolg. Or if Beorn isn't at DG, then he'll kill Azog later. IMO Azog will be killed by Beorn one way or the other.
Sauron should be driven out. It should appear as if the Council has won. This way Sauron's return in LOTR still catches Gandalf off guard.


DavidDevant
Lorien

Jan 4 2014, 10:03pm

Post #13 of 36 (260 views)
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I don't think Azog will be there. [In reply to] Can't Post

DOS suggests he should be leading that army (though it's not confirmed)

I must ask, as it's a pet issue of mine, what makes you say Gandalf is caught off guard in FOTR?

Personally, I'd just like to see scenes be powerful and interesting. Who is there or not, who kills who, doesn't matter in and of itself to me.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 4 2014, 10:12pm

Post #14 of 36 (244 views)
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Actually would make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

To stay close to the book, Azog dies by the hands of the white council and Bolg leads Sauron's hordes.

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


Name
Rohan


Jan 4 2014, 10:16pm

Post #15 of 36 (233 views)
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Hmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe I worded that a little badly. Gandalf knows Sauron has returned to Mordor, that's clear. But I feel like Gandalf didn't expect Sauron to be so aggressive so early in the game, if you see what I'm saying. He is extremely surprised by the release of the Nine, and he seems to take the situation more seriously when he finds out about the Ring. I think "Sauron looking for the Ring" is what caught him off guard.

My name is Name, which, name-wise, is a much better name than your first name, last name, or name's name could ever plan on naming themselves.


DavidDevant
Lorien

Jan 4 2014, 10:23pm

Post #16 of 36 (229 views)
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The only thing he seems to be surprised by [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that the Nine have crossed the Isen I.e. They are are as close or closer to the Ring than he is, and have moved more quickly than he thought. He knows Sauron is seeking it so I don't think his surprise extends beyond this specific fact.

I'm not sure that specific issue links back to DG at all really.


Name
Rohan


Jan 4 2014, 10:33pm

Post #17 of 36 (217 views)
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OK, sound points. [In reply to] Can't Post

What I mean with DG is if Sauron just flees back to Mordor along with the nine, what has Gandalf been doing for 60 years? His job is to help defeat Sauron once and for all, so why do nothing for so long? I just think a big "defeat" for Sauron at DG would at least clarify why Gandalf isn't still insanely concerned that Sauron still lives at the end of TABA.

My name is Name, which, name-wise, is a much better name than your first name, last name, or name's name could ever plan on naming themselves.


DavidDevant
Lorien

Jan 4 2014, 10:37pm

Post #18 of 36 (224 views)
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You are worried about the 60? [In reply to] Can't Post

It took him the best part of 2,000 years to go from suspicions about DG to moving against Sauron there! 60 years is the blink of an eye.


Name
Rohan


Jan 4 2014, 10:39pm

Post #19 of 36 (216 views)
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But I'm talking about how PJ explains it in the films. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My name is Name, which, name-wise, is a much better name than your first name, last name, or name's name could ever plan on naming themselves.


DavidDevant
Lorien

Jan 4 2014, 10:57pm

Post #20 of 36 (200 views)
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I suspect that [In reply to] Can't Post

TABA will be left with Gandalf and the wise holding a spectrum of viewpoints as to the extent to which Sauron has been neutralised.

I guess more to the point is that fact that Gandalf's mission to oppose Sauron isn't expressed anywhere near as explicitly in the films as in the text. in FOTR Gandalf's initial motivation is galvanised by the Ring and the need to protect it until a decision can be made at Rivendell (rather than seizing upon an opportunity to destroy Sauron). Similarly, whilst he has been worrying about the Dragon, his moves against Sauron are galvanised by external events (Radagast, the dagger etc).

So I'm not sure film audience would see Gandalf as constantly seeking to destroy Sauron, but rather responding to opportunities and threats as they occurred. Which makes it less of a question, I would think.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jan 5 2014, 12:05am

Post #21 of 36 (180 views)
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That really doesn't mean much... [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Lee's battle scenes in the Star Wars prequels were all done by CGIing his head onto the body of a stunt double. And a few shots of Saruman in AUJ were of Lee's double as well. It could easily be done.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jan 5 2014, 12:08am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 5 2014, 12:34am

Post #22 of 36 (157 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf's job is not to be a one man Rambo and go by himself to the black gate and confront Sauron and his hordes. His purpose is to aid and if necessary protect the free people's of middle-earth, not to fight their enemies for them. Gandalf did keep a watchful eye on Mordor but what could he do? There was no-one to lead the people of middle-earth to war because they felt the enemy was hiding in Mordor instead of realizing they were preparing for war.

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jan 5 2014, 12:50am

Post #23 of 36 (167 views)
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Some thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

They're not going to bring Galadriel in just to kill some orcs. She may not even have action scenes per se, but rather more metaphysical battles with the Nazgūl or Sauron.

People can keep saying how in the books it was through the devices of Saruman that Sauron was defeated, but the movies keep indicating that Galadriel will have a special protagonism. She is being presented as Gandalf's one active ally, and is the only one of the White Council to appear in DOS. It's no coincidence that Gandalf's message is directed specifically at her ("tell her we must force his hand").

Christopher Lee being 90 years old won't limit his actions in the scene, true, but I'm still dreading the prospect of seeing CGI Saruman running around like a lunatic. CGI Gandalf looked *awful* in the confrontation against Sauron: you can tell exactly which of the shots have Ian McKellen in them and which of the shots have the fake wizard. So I pray they improve on that front....

Ultimately, I'd prefer a mostly empty Dol Guldur with only Sauron and his wraiths in there. Would be much more atmospheric and ominous. And it's fun to speculate what exactly will be the individual roles of each WC member in the battle, cos I honestly have no clue. But I think the Gandalf and Galadriel alliance will have a particular relevance here.


(This post was edited by HiddenSpring on Jan 5 2014, 12:54am)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jan 5 2014, 12:56am

Post #24 of 36 (148 views)
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He doesn't have to know that Sauron went to Mordor... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the books, the Council does not learn of Sauron's whereabouts for another 10 years after the attack on Dol Guldur. At that point, Mordor was rebuilt and Sauron's forces were pretty strong, so destroying the Ring was their only option. Problem was, they didn't yet know where the Ring was.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jan 5 2014, 1:24am

Post #25 of 36 (176 views)
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All the movies have indicated is that Galadriel will come to Gandalf's aid... [In reply to] Can't Post

...not that she is going to come in and duke it out with Sauron mano a mano while the Wizards stand around fending off some Nazgul and Orcs. Anyway, all we've even seen of this thus far is some behind-the-scenes stuff of Galadriel helping Gandalf to safety, that's it. I get that a lot of people want to see Galadriel be the superstar of the White Council and take out Sauron all by herself, but there are 4 other members of the Council in film-universe (counting Radagast) who need to get some share in the spotlight as well. It's not all about Galadriel (who isn't even head of the Council, in book or film).

And of course, Sir Christopher Lee has already made mention that we will be seeing quite a bit of Saruman in TaBA, so aside from Dol Guldur, and hopefully being convinced by Elrond, Galadriel, and Radagast that action must be taken prior to the attack, I don't see how else Saruman would fit in the movie.


Quote
People can keep saying how in the books it was through the devices of Saruman that Sauron was defeated, but the movies keep indicating that Galadriel will have a special protagonism. She is being presented as Gandalf's one active ally, and is the only one of the White Council to appear in DOS. It's no coincidence that Gandalf's message is directed specifically at her ("tell her we must force his hand").



(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jan 5 2014, 1:35am)

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