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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How will the other dwarves react to Thorin breaking down?

Danielos
Rohan

Jan 4 2014, 3:20pm

Post #1 of 22 (744 views)
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How will the other dwarves react to Thorin breaking down? Can't Post

Since Thorin is starting to succumb to dragon sickness, how will the other companions react to this? Will they just remain loyal despite their leader losing it or will we finally see some interesting dwarf dynamics here with the other dwarves beginning to question his authority? This could lead to us finally beginning to understand the motivations of some of the "lesser dwarves" in the story.


Rowan Greene
Lorien


Jan 4 2014, 3:39pm

Post #2 of 22 (461 views)
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I see... [In reply to] Can't Post

....Balin quietly, yet firmly, questioning Thorin's actions, much as he did when he said 'His name is Bilbo" in DoS. Balin will try--in vain--to prevent Thorin's downward spiral.

Not sure about Dwalin but I predict he'll remain loyal to the end. Not sure about the others but maybe we'll finally hear from Bombur. Should be interesting to watch this unfold.


In Reply To
Since Thorin is starting to succumb to dragon sickness, how will the other companions react to this? Will they just remain loyal despite their leader losing it or will we finally see some interesting dwarf dynamics here with the other dwarves beginning to question his authority? This could lead to us finally beginning to understand the motivations of some of the "lesser dwarves" in the story.




Wilfred
Bree


Jan 4 2014, 3:43pm

Post #3 of 22 (463 views)
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Dragon Sickness [In reply to] Can't Post

Good question. I can't hazard much of a guess because, to my mind, there hasn't been enough work put into distinguishing the dwarves from each each other. Balin seems the one most likely to be both wary and critical, but he's also clearly the most loyal, so it's from and in him that I expect to see the most conflict (not to mention that he has a properly chopped up actor behind his prosthetics). Kili and Fili are close family but Fili has already disobeyed Thorin once so perhaps they will offer a little rebellion, which they feel compelled to atone for on the battlefield. Dwalin seems to be a loyal foot soldier; I wouldn't be surprised if he reacts and dissents but I think it less likely. Bifur, Bofur and Bombur lack the status to speak up, I think. Do any of the others have distinct personalities?

I'm not at all keen on this term "dragon sickness" because a) Thrór had the sickness before the dragon came and b) knowing the value of and accounting for every last coin seems to me to be a very dwarfish trait and the sickness (i.e. when that very sensible habit tips over into obsession) seems likely to be equally dwarfish.




Wilfred
Bree


Jan 4 2014, 3:48pm

Post #4 of 22 (441 views)
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Silent Bobmbur [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.... maybe we'll finally hear from Bombur.


I'm going to say this now to get it out of the way because it's annoying me and I'd like someone to confirm that it's not possible: when we do eventually hear Bombur speak, it's not possible that he'll turn out to be a she, is it? I mean, someone somewhere has referred to him as him or he at some point, right?




dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 4 2014, 3:51pm

Post #5 of 22 (416 views)
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'Dragon sickness' [In reply to] Can't Post

... refers to undue possessiveness over treasure. The idea is that the victim is behaving like a dragon, not that it's something he's caught from a dragon, so no dragon needs to be present. It's just a comparison.


Chancewind
Bree

Jan 4 2014, 3:53pm

Post #6 of 22 (423 views)
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He is referred to [In reply to] Can't Post

as 'Bofur's brother' in behind-the-scenes and promotional material. I think you'll be safe Wink


Wilfred
Bree


Jan 4 2014, 4:23pm

Post #7 of 22 (389 views)
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Dragon Sickness [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't mean I thought he'd contracted it by contagion, and I understand that Tolkien intended it to be taken as "behaving like a dragon" in relation to covetously protecting one's gold, but it seems to me, in the films, that this covetousness has been clearly identified as a problem within the dwarfish community, regardless of comparison with dragons.




Wilfred
Bree


Jan 4 2014, 4:25pm

Post #8 of 22 (381 views)
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Thanks... [In reply to] Can't Post

... That's 99% reassuring.




Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 4 2014, 9:22pm

Post #9 of 22 (284 views)
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When Stephen Hunter was cast as Bombur [In reply to] Can't Post

he was asked if he minded not having any lines. Unless PJ changes his mind on a whim, we're unlikely to hear Bombur speak in the DOS EE or in TABA.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 4 2014, 9:26pm

Post #10 of 22 (268 views)
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I wouldn't be surprised if ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bombur goes to talk in TABA but is swiftly interrupted by one of the other Dwarves. The WETA Chronicles Book: Creatures and Characters also confirms that Bombur speaks with a Northern Irish accent, so he must've had one or two lines for them to note this.



Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 4 2014, 11:06pm

Post #11 of 22 (249 views)
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Fili has noticed [In reply to] Can't Post

during his scene in DOS when he defies Thorin-he clearly looks disgusted that Thorin would choose the mountain over his kin. And if you listen closely, his line about risking the quest for a dwarf is almost word for word what he said about Bilbo to Balin.

And it's clear that Fili chose his brother over his uncle-which was a nice nod to the fact that they don't agree with him in the book.



Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 4 2014, 11:08pm

Post #12 of 22 (216 views)
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bombur has spoken [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not understand why everyone still thinks he hasn't. He spoke in AUJ- "Untie me mister" during the troll scene (I didn't catch it til I watched the movie with subtitles, and he's credited, plus his voice didn't match any of the other dwarves and I saw his mouth move though it was a weird angle).

But I can say that he isn't female- the AUJ EE with the bathing scene was proof enough of that Wink



dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 4 2014, 11:09pm

Post #13 of 22 (216 views)
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I think Bombur is their tribute to the silent films.... [In reply to] Can't Post

They're giving him a lot of very physical comedy - and not just the never-ending fat joke. The way he outran the others on the way to Beorn's house, and of course, his barrel ride. It's very clever really - they're making a distinct personality of him with action and movement rather than words.


Bard'sBlackArrow
Lorien


Jan 4 2014, 11:12pm

Post #14 of 22 (203 views)
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nice points... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
....Balin quietly, yet firmly, questioning Thorin's actions, much as he did when he said 'His name is Bilbo" in DoS. Balin will try--in vain--to prevent Thorin's downward spiral.

Not sure about Dwalin but I predict he'll remain loyal to the end. Not sure about the others but maybe we'll finally hear from Bombur. Should be interesting to watch this unfold.


Think you're right with Balin and Dwalin.

I think it will impact Balin the hardest. Balin was at Erebor and understands all too well what could happen to their future king. Balin is also torn between his growing admiration for Bilbo and his loyalty/fondness for Thorin as a dwarf and potential king.

Dwalin is the loyal soldier.

I see Bifur getting a bit bothered by this too. He speaks highly of Thorin and will eagerly fight for him and the quest. As old as he is, Bifur looks up to Thorin perhaps as much or more than Dwalin.

I think these three will be the most interesting to watch because we kind of know how Fili and Kili will react, unless the rug gets pulled out from under us and their parts have been rewritten.

I do not know what the rest will do.

I don't need no stinkin' Elves. :D


Mad Baggins
The Shire

Jan 4 2014, 11:12pm

Post #15 of 22 (221 views)
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Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

It could provide some drama if some of the company bicker with him. Balin will certainly stand up to him. Fili and Kili will remain loyal to him.


warhorse78
Bree


Jan 5 2014, 10:29am

Post #16 of 22 (140 views)
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That barrel bounce. [In reply to] Can't Post

Had me laughing the hardest from all of the movies I have seen all year long. Only other scene that would be close would be in The Word's End when Simon Pegg gets the beer knocked right out of his hand. But really, as ridiculous as that barrel bounce was, it was a great and truly funny scene.


callMEcrazy
The Shire

Jan 6 2014, 5:38am

Post #17 of 22 (93 views)
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Never heard of it. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... refers to undue possessiveness over treasure. The idea is that the victim is behaving like a dragon, not that it's something he's caught from a dragon, so no dragon needs to be present. It's just a comparison.


It's weird that I don't remember the term 'dragon sickness' at all from any of Tolkien's works. Don't know how I missed that. Anyway there are also others who are saying that it is the arkenstone itself that's affecting Thorin through its magical properties.

Am I missing something ? The ring is right there. We also know from Tolkien that the effect the ring has on dwarves is that it increases their lust for gold and treasures. That explains Thorin's behavior completely. So why is nobody else coming to that conclusion ?


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 6 2014, 6:23am

Post #18 of 22 (97 views)
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I did (TABA spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been saying that for months-that my theory is exposure to the One that made Thorin go cuckoo.

However, at the time TH was written, LOTR and the purpose of the One hadn't been devised yet by Tolkien. It was only when he was asked to do a sequel that became the epic LOTR that he decided the ring would be a nice way to tie in both stories. Up til that point, it was just a handy trinket to help Bilbo fulfill his great deeds without getting killed (and allowed the dwarves to escape Thranduil's halls without getting detected by elves).

But retroactively, the One's exposure to Thorin makes sense. After he banished Bilbo in the books, obviously the One was no longer in proximity to him. Next time we see him, he's rushing out into battle to aid and unite the 3 armies of the free peoples against their common enemy that he had cursed last time we saw him, and then we have his apology to Bilbo and his death, in which he redeems himself.

Yes, he is temporarily exposed to the One again here, but when he came back from the gold lust to become Thorin again, it was after Bilbo and the One left his proximity after several months of being exposed to it, and the second time he wasn't exposed long enough for it to grip him again.

I wonder if this theory is how Tolkien devised the way the rings of power affect dwarves- by Thorin's gold lust in TH. Given that he created them to be indomitable, this would make sense as his inspiration.

And if it wasn't in Tolkien's mind at all (proximity to the One theory), then we as fans can just consider it our head canon and go with it Cool



callMEcrazy
The Shire

Jan 6 2014, 6:07pm

Post #19 of 22 (68 views)
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Its a no brainer [In reply to] Can't Post

It just seems bloody obvious to me. After all that happens in LOTR even casual viewers know that the ring corrupts. There's no need to even go into detail. So why so much confusion ? That's what baffles me.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 6 2014, 6:19pm

Post #20 of 22 (64 views)
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Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

is a character in "The Hobbit". Viewers of this film series may, or may not, know the pretty gold ring that Bilbo uses to get invisible, corrupts.



Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jan 6 2014, 6:26pm

Post #21 of 22 (65 views)
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I believe the confusion stems [In reply to] Can't Post

from a couple of points.

  1. the ring wasn't corrupting in The Hobbit. As I mentioned my earlier post, this was a device that Tolkien came up with long after TH was published.
  2. Tolkien himself called it gold sickness, and gave no indication at the time that the One was behind it.
  3. That is true that even casual viewers know the ring corrupts. However, not everyone knows that dwarves were made to be indomitable, and that the rings of power served only to increase their natural fondness for gold. They know that the One makes people desire to dominate others and ensnares them in Sauron's grasp, but it does not affect the dwarves that way. That particular point is a tidbit only those who are familiar with Tolkien's works (and even then, not everyone is that familiar with small details such as that, or read the appendices), and is never mentioned in the movies.
  4. The ring did show with Boromir (and to a lesser extent briefly with Aragorn and Faramir) that proximity could cause desire to possess the ring. Thorin never showed a desire to possess it-indeed in the book he doesn't even know of it til after the Spider battle, and in the movie so far the dwarves don't seem to know of it at all. (this could be changed in the DOS EE, as I would imagine the dwarves would have wondered just how Bilbo managed to land his hands on the keys in the first place, but only time will tell if he reveals the ring to them at all. Surely Thorin would have been familiar with the lore of the Rings of power, given Thrain had one.
  5. Sauron is not at his full strength yet. We see the ring beginning to affect Bilbo, but in book lore it didn't affect him that badly for quite some time (in book verse, it's 80 years before the war of the ring, and in movie verse 60 years. That's half a hobbit's lifetime). The fact that Sauron isn't at his full strength yet would mean that the One's power is also lessened from what it was in LOTR, thus not showing as significant of an impact to the casual or not as experienced Tolkien fan.



While it seems obvious to me as well, that does not mean it's obvious to others. Everyone interprets even the same scenes and circumstances in the movies/books differently. Some may say that Tauriel and Kili are absolutely eternally in love with each other and about to hop into bed in DOS, while others like myself see a naive youthful crush on one side and compassion and a desire to do what's right on the other-not a full blown romance. It's the difference of perception and what one reads into the same thing.



Yva
Rivendell


Jan 6 2014, 10:34pm

Post #22 of 22 (61 views)
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Oin [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously Balin and Fili are the names that first spring to mind but since you asked about the "lesser dwarves", I was thinking Oin, the way his character background was established so far, could be part of the "rebelling" camp.

The reason is simple - he's a healer, in the Weta books it says they even speculated, perhaps in a joking manner, that this could mean he would also fulfill the role of a midwife within the dwarven society. We saw him capable of showing respect to the elvish medicine, so when it comes to his job, he's certainly able to overcome the traditional prejudices when things become serious. As a healer, and depending on the exact role the healers play among the dwarves, he could consider it his responsibility to try to mitigate conflicts that could potentially lead to unnecessary bloodshed. I'd like to see something like that.

 
 

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