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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Some issues with the "Morgul shaft"

7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Dec 27 2013, 7:19am

Post #1 of 15 (931 views)
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Some issues with the "Morgul shaft" Can't Post

Why does it behave differently from the Morgul blade? The effect of the Morgul blade on Frodo in FOTR was instantaneous, and he was a complete mess and incapacitated until he was saved by Elrond. So why wasn't this the case with Kili? Why would some orc be equipped with such a weapon?


Fleuz
Lorien


Dec 27 2013, 7:36am

Post #2 of 15 (559 views)
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The attacker makes the difference [In reply to] Can't Post

Bolg is not some random Orc.
He's Azog's son and a leading commander of Dol Guldur.
The Ringwraights (so it seems to me) can't leave the stronghold of their master, cause he's not mighty enough.
So they equip Bolg with that weapon.

In think for the weapon, affecting the most it must be handled by a Nazgul.
There is clearly some magic around those blades. So they are not that dangerous in the hands of an orc.

More interesting is how the blade Gandalf presents in Rivendell will find its way back to the witchking.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 27 2013, 7:37am

Post #3 of 15 (545 views)
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I think the difference [In reply to] Can't Post

was that the Witch King himself stabbed Frodo with his own blade, whereas Kili's arrow was poisoned, but not an actual Morgul Blade.

As to why it took a while with Kili- with Frodo, part of the blade broke off and was working its way to his heart. With Kili, I believe he got the arrowhead and shaft out.

Also, Kili is a dwarf, not a hobbit, and therefore he is naturally hardier and more resilient to both injury and poison. Dwarves were made by Aule (Mahal as they call them) but he didn't have the power to grant life. However, since Melkor (Sauron's boss) was in full power, Aule made the dwarves very tough and hardy, able to withstand the evils wrought by him. But because Aule only vaguely perceived Eru Illuvatar's design for the Firstborn (elves), he didn't get the proportions right....

Long story short, dwarves can withstand things the other races cannot, but they are still mortal, and can still die from injuries/poison if it's severe enough. It would just take a little longer for them to succumb. Kili's already white faced when they arrive in Laketown, so it's clearly affecting him, but he tries to play it off as nothing as long as he can.

Stubborn dwarves Wink

I honestly would have preferred it to be some generic sort of poison, not "Morgul poison" because then it's a question of why an orc would have it.

But since they've established Bolg as being a big higher-up in Dol Guldur, it would not be unreasonable to think he could get his hands on poison. But I would think "morgul" would imply direct involvement of the ringwraiths...maybe they made the arrows and gave them to him? I have no idea...



Elizabeth
Valinor


Dec 27 2013, 7:56am

Post #4 of 15 (480 views)
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The resilience of hobbits [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo was wounded on Weathertop 18 days before he awoke in Rivendell. Of course, the movie doesn't make it clear how long it took Kili to become seriously ill, but it's unclear that he was any more resilient to whatever poison it was.

I entirely agree with Cirashala that "Morgul" poison is inappropriate here. I assume Jackson was taking a shortcut to echo something that some in the audience might recognize.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Dec 27 2013, 7:58am)


TheHutt
Gondor


Dec 27 2013, 8:01am

Post #5 of 15 (458 views)
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Different wounds... [In reply to] Can't Post

One was in the shoulder, close to the heart; and one is in the leg, which is quite remote from it.

Russian LOTR & Hobbit Site: Henneth-Annun.ru


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 27 2013, 8:09am

Post #6 of 15 (443 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

it can be fairly difficult to indicate just how much time is passing on film. We have over a year's worth of events (far more than that if you could the 18 years between Frodo's acquisition of Bag End and the Quest) to depict and can see that whole "year" in 12 hours (give or take).

The season changing is a good indicator if it's from spring to autumn, but 18 days is more difficult to depict unless it's at the transition time between two seasons with vastly different fauna/weather (autumn to winter transition is easy, but spring to summer isn't as easy to distinguish on film).

As to DOS- Kili gets wounded same day they're picked up by Bard, and there's good indication that they leave the next day for Erebor. So he went from getting hit to nearly succumbing in what? 2 days? If that....

Unless they lost the current and doggie paddled for a couple weeks down the river....and I highly doubt that Crazy

Then again, they only seem to spend a day in Rivendell in the AUJ TE, but on the EE we get clear indication they stayed for a while (unless Rivendell's pantries were as small as Bilbo's..) so maybe the DOS EE will make things a bit clearer.

I think DOS has the leeway to expand on things/add things from the book that were sidelined (like Bombur sleeping in Mirkwood) to a great capacity, and could make for a much longer EE than AUJ (and if they were smart they would).



Elizabeth
Valinor


Dec 27 2013, 8:17am

Post #7 of 15 (427 views)
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I agree it was a shorter time... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for Kili than for Frodo, although we can't count days precisely in movie-verse. So, either Kili got a faster-working poison or hobbits are more resilient than dwarves.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Dec 27 2013, 8:17am)


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 27 2013, 8:24am

Post #8 of 15 (416 views)
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it could have been different kinds of resilience [In reply to] Can't Post

Dwarves may have been hardier and more physically resilient, but hobbits are more resilient in regards to evil, and morgul poison is definitely a poison of the evil variety....

And Frodo being in possession of the One could have prolonged the effect too, though I would think it would have the opposite effect (meaning the One desires to corrupt it's bearer, not keep it from corruption).



DavidDevant
Lorien

Dec 27 2013, 9:00am

Post #9 of 15 (435 views)
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Hmm I'm not sure that "morgul" [In reply to] Can't Post

Need mean anything more than it means I.e. General dark arts rather than Nazgul specific.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 27 2013, 9:26am

Post #10 of 15 (417 views)
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In this instance, I think Crishala hit on a great point. I agree with you both that a Morgul anything, as the word means [In reply to] Can't Post

dark sorcery, not simply poison, probably shouldn't be in common orc hands... I will grant that Bolg is not common, and an argument can be made for him having an enchanted weapon (maybe Azog's mace was spruced for him by Sauron as well, or by the Balrog, since even an orc over 7 feet tall should not be knocking two hundred pound dwarves aside in groups of four at a time), but not being as effective with it as a magical creature would be.

That said, her argument about dwarves is a good one. The Morgul blade was not just poisinging Frodo... it was transforming him into a wraith under the dominion of THe Nazgul. However dwarves cannot be made into wraiths, nor do they suffer complete domination by the will of others.

In Reply To
Frodo was wounded on Weathertop 18 days before he awoke in Rivendell. Of course, the movie doesn't make it clear how long it took Kili to become seriously ill, but it's unclear that he was any more resilient to whatever poison it was.

I entirely agree with Cirashala that "Morgul" poison is inappropriate here. I assume Jackson was taking a shortcut to echo something that some in the audience might recognize.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Dec 27 2013, 2:14pm

Post #11 of 15 (323 views)
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The blade didn't broke off in the movie, did it? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a while since i saw FOTR but as far as i remember, it was a clean stab, nothing broke off.


In Reply To
As to why it took a while with Kili- with Frodo, part of the blade broke off and was working its way to his heart. With Kili, I believe he got the arrowhead and shaft out.



7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Dec 27 2013, 6:30pm

Post #12 of 15 (245 views)
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Quite frankly [In reply to] Can't Post

They could have avoided this crap by saying "poison shaft" instead of "Morgul shaft." This makes things so much simpler. Tauriel is probably a good healer, but she shouldn't have Elrond level healing abilities.


Plurmo
Rohan

Dec 27 2013, 7:05pm

Post #13 of 15 (230 views)
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Yes, as used in the prophecy dream of Faramir.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


burgahobbit
Rohan


Dec 27 2013, 7:24pm

Post #14 of 15 (228 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

They call it "morgul" just lake "morgul blade" but its just a poisonous arrow, using some sort of dark magic to kill, not to turn into a wraith. I'm very glad this is the case because I would have hated it if the morgul shaft was just an arrow version of the Nazgul's morgul blade.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because Im afraid, and he gives me courage. - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.


simonjamesmoore
The Shire

Dec 28 2013, 4:25pm

Post #15 of 15 (239 views)
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Morgul shaft [In reply to] Can't Post

Specifically using 'morgul shaft' as opposed to a generic poisonous shaft is, I think, a wise idea.
(a) Your run-of-the-mill orc can come by a poisoned arrow, whereas you need to be Bolg/boss status to get a MORGUL shaft;
(b) Thranduil will know that morgul anything = dangerous dark forces;
(c) Audience fears more for Kili's life when a dark word is name-dropped (remember in AUJ the audience was told how scary a morgul blade is).

 
 

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