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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dwarf Genealogy

Elizabeth
Valinor


Dec 27 2013, 2:07am


Views: 665
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Dwarf Genealogy Can't Post

There was a recent discussion of Fili's role in the movies, in which a sub-discussion broke out about whether Fili is "next in line for the throne". I asserted that he is not. Fili and Kili are sons of Thorin's sister Dís, and the line of the throne went via patrilineal primogeniture. Even if Fíli and Kíli had survived, Dáin Ironfoot would still have been the King of the Longbeards after Thorin. He was Thorin's second cousin, grandson of Thrór's younger brother.

Fili (the TORn one) asserted:

Quote
There might be an exception if Dís, the mother of Fíli and Kíli, had been part of a matrilineal marriage, whereby the children born of Dís would belong to the Durin dynasty and not the clan of their father. This rarely happened in Europe, but has happened in other cultures throughout history.

If this were the case, then primogeniture would say that Fíli and Kíli DID have a greater claim to the throne, as they are of the Durin dynasty with Thrain II as their nearest agnate who held the crown, while Dain's closest crown-wearing agnate was Dáin I, Thror's father, two generations removed from Fíli and Kíli's claims.

So MAYBE Fíli and Kíli's dad wasn't much to write home about, but Dís' marriage was made matrilineal to protect the line in case Thorin never married or had children?


Since I love this kind of argument, I asked my friend Reera the Red (who maintains the Framecaplib and is an expert on both genealogy and Tolkien), who commented:

Quote
Maybe, but probably unlikely... We have no indication whatsoever that this could, or did, happen among Dwarves; what little we are told about them says that they reckoned patrilineally. And there would be no need to make an exception for Dís's kids, since it's not as though there were any lack of potential heirs. Just among the ones we know of who were close to the throne in that generation, there were Thorin, his brother Frerin (killed at Azanulbizar), Dáin, Balin, Dwalin, Óin, and Glóin. Dwarves often did not marry, so having your heir be a cousin of some degree would be quite commonplace in their society.

Fíli and Kíli may or may not have been members of the Longbeard clan. Given Dís's high birth, I would expect her husband to be highborn also, but we're acquainted with the highest-ranking Dwarves of Durin's house and he doesn't seem to be among them. He could have been of somewhat lesser degree, or he could have been of suitable rank from one of the other clans, most likely the Firebeards or the Broadbeams, since they lived in the Blue Mountains, where Thorin's bunch had settled by the time Fíli and Kíli were born.

(Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur were probably from one of these two clans, too, since we are told that they weren't Longbeards. And I've always held in my personal fanon that Gimli's mother was a Firebeard. Almost everyone who has depicted Gimli has shown him as a redhead, though there is no canonical statement about his hair color, and I pictured him that way even before seeing any illustrations of him. One would guess that the Firebeards were often redheads, so that could have been where it came from.).








Subject User Time
Dwarf Genealogy Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Dec 27 2013, 2:07am
    I disagree. marillaraina Send a private message to marillaraina Dec 27 2013, 2:38am
        "Sister-sons" don't necessarily have standing for inheritance. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Dec 27 2013, 4:27am
            Very Good Arguments Fili Send a private message to Fili Dec 27 2013, 5:04am
                The genealogy is written to support the story. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Dec 27 2013, 5:12am
                    That's Possible Fili Send a private message to Fili Dec 27 2013, 5:27am
                    Like the hobbit family trees. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Dec 27 2013, 5:49am
            stupid subject lines. marillaraina Send a private message to marillaraina Dec 27 2013, 5:26am
            yet Cirashala Send a private message to Cirashala Dec 27 2013, 6:33am
                "the first dwarf king EVER in the line of Durin to have died without a son" N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Dec 27 2013, 6:43am
                    I stand corrected Cirashala Send a private message to Cirashala Dec 27 2013, 6:47am
                        It might, indeed, have been an interesting discussion. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Dec 27 2013, 8:05am
                            true Cirashala Send a private message to Cirashala Dec 27 2013, 8:22am
                                We can't actually see those "thousand years or so" Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Dec 27 2013, 8:46am
                                    thanks! Cirashala Send a private message to Cirashala Dec 27 2013, 7:03pm
                            I suppose they were far older than Thrór and Thrain I at their crowning. Plurmo Send a private message to Plurmo Dec 28 2013, 2:47am
                sister-sons ... cirashala beat me to it Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Dec 27 2013, 1:50pm
            a shivanwurm Send a private message to shivanwurm Dec 27 2013, 7:01am
        "In The Hobbit book, they had Thorin introduce Fili and Kili as his sister sons." N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Dec 27 2013, 6:33am
    As far as the movies are concerned, Fili IS the heir Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Dec 27 2013, 12:15pm
        Tolkien *book spoiler* arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Dec 27 2013, 1:38pm
            plot-reasons for the deaths of fili and kili Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Dec 27 2013, 1:53pm
                Very good point, Maciliel and arithmancer Riven Delve Send a private message to Riven Delve Dec 27 2013, 2:13pm
                I Agree Fili Send a private message to Fili Dec 27 2013, 2:58pm
                322 sets of brothers died in WWI Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Dec 27 2013, 9:19pm
        I agree, Riven Delve, that in the movie Fili is Thorin's heir Noria Send a private message to Noria Dec 27 2013, 2:42pm
    Re Retro315 Send a private message to Retro315 Dec 27 2013, 9:34pm
        Valandil went to live with Meneldil? N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Dec 27 2013, 10:15pm
        These issues are very culture-specific. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Dec 27 2013, 11:42pm

 
 
 

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