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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I'm confused about movieverse Arkenstone *spoilers*

Loresilme
Valinor


Dec 26 2013, 8:49pm

Post #1 of 12 (742 views)
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I'm confused about movieverse Arkenstone *spoilers* Can't Post

In the film the Arkenstone is being presented as something Thorin needs in order to unite the dwarf armies. So, if the book plot is followed, and Bilbo never gives Thorin the Arkenstone, then how is it going to be explained when Dain and the dwarf armies do show up, if they show up despite the fact that Thorin doesn't have the Arkenstone?


burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 26 2013, 9:08pm

Post #2 of 12 (462 views)
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I generally liked the Arkenstone change [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of the many changes from The Hobbit book, I thought the Arkenstone story change was one of the better ones. It gave Bilbo a clearer burglary mission when journeying down the tunnel to encounter Smaug. In the book it's not entirely clear what Bilbo is supposed to do when he overcomes his fear to visit the dragon.

I'm not sure that the combined dwarven kingdoms would have defeated Smaug if the burglary mission had been successful, but anyway that's nit-picking.

I guess in TABA, it will be described that Thorin has recaptured Erebor and the great treasure horde of Thror and it will only be a matter of time before he finds the Arkenstone. Then it will be even more shocking that Bilbo has nicked it.

I was really annoyed by the scene where Thorin pulls out his sword on Bilbo in DoS. They've really screwed up the character arcs in this adaptation.


DavidDevant
Lorien

Dec 26 2013, 9:11pm

Post #3 of 12 (418 views)
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Why were you annoyed by the sword pulling? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure I follow.


DavidDevant
Lorien

Dec 26 2013, 9:14pm

Post #4 of 12 (377 views)
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I suspect there may be something of a moral in the way things turn out [In reply to] Can't Post

With some thoughts about what makes a ruler - possessions, rights or actions. But we shall see!


Loresilme
Valinor


Dec 26 2013, 9:18pm

Post #5 of 12 (383 views)
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So they'll come anyway? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
I guess in TABA, it will be described that Thorin has recaptured Erebor and the great treasure horde of Thror and it will only be a matter of time before he finds the Arkenstone. Then it will be even more shocking that Bilbo has nicked it.


Even though he technically is not in possession of it? It just seems odd that they would go out of their way to say that dwarves' allegiance is to whoever has the stone, and then have them come anyway even though he doesn't have it.

I'm also in favor of the change, I think attaching this cultural significance to the Arkenstone gives the story a broader basis for the quest to reclaim Erebor than it just being about the gold. I'm just speculating about how the sequence of events is going to be portrayed, since (I'm assuming) Thorin won't have the Arkenstone when the other dwarves arrive.


Pazeer
Rivendell


Dec 26 2013, 9:18pm

Post #6 of 12 (348 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think all the dwarf armies will show up, only Dain and his soldiers from the Iron Hills.
And the most likely reason is as it was in the book, Thorin and company has reclaimed the mountain and is protecting it from the men of Laketown and the elves, so he is calling for help from his kin.


DanielLB
Immortal


Dec 26 2013, 9:37pm

Post #7 of 12 (356 views)
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That's probably (part of) the moral of the story/movies. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It just seems odd that they would go out of their way to say that dwarves' allegiance is to whoever has the stone, and then have them come anyway even though he doesn't have it.


That regardless of any golden, sparkly or precious possession, gem or hoard, people (races) must unite to defeat the common enemy - the Orcs. It doesn't matter that Thranduil/Bard is/are in possession of the Arkenstone, it's the fact that the Necromancer/Azog/Bolg are waging a war on the rest of Middle-earth.



burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 26 2013, 9:48pm

Post #8 of 12 (318 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

As Pazeer says below, only one kingdom comes to Thorin's aid. And it's Dain who is Thorin's closest kin.

The fact that they have set up a greater power and significance for the Arkenstone adds to the animosity when Thorin finds out Bilbo has stolen it, and helps explain why the dwarves are willing to attack the elven and lakemen armies.


Loresilme
Valinor


Dec 26 2013, 9:49pm

Post #9 of 12 (334 views)
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They felt that way in the book [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That regardless of any golden, sparkly or precious possession, gem or hoard, people (races) must unite to defeat the common enemy - the Orcs. It doesn't matter that Thranduil/Bard is/are in possession of the Arkenstone, it's the fact that the Necromancer/Azog/Bolg are waging a war on the rest of Middle-earth.


("We are hastening to our kinsmen in the Mountain, since we learn that the kingdom of old is renewed. ") but in the Bree prologue it seems that from Thorin's perspective they will not do so without the Arkenstone, and also in the prologue it seems that Gandalf doesn't take issue with that perspective, in fact he encourages it by saying that that's specifically why they'll need a burglar.


Erewen
The Shire

Dec 26 2013, 10:23pm

Post #10 of 12 (283 views)
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I'm not too sure but [In reply to] Can't Post

I took it as that the dwarven armies wouldn't take such a risk just on Thorin's say so, but if he had the arkenstone they would see it as a sign or something that he should be listened to.

In dreams I will find my way.


Macfeast
Rohan


Dec 26 2013, 10:45pm

Post #11 of 12 (284 views)
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You know... SPOILERS! [In reply to] Can't Post

...I have in the past talked about how I see a need to give Dáin something to do, something that establishes him as a worthy successor to the throne. Perhaps him coming to Thorin's aid, despite Thorin not being in the possession of the Arkenstone, will be played up as something honorable and noble - Dáin came with an army, when no other would - as well as a part of the moral you describe.

I still want him to get an important kill on the battlefield, and wouldn't want this scenario to replace that... nonetheless, it could be a start in his redemption (remember that, at this point, Dáin isn't just a nobody; AUJ established him as someone who didn't want anything to do with the quest. He already has a hole dug for him, that he needs to get out of), and the revelation that he will be a worthy King of Durin's Folk. Might be hard to pull off, since Dáin hasn't even been properly introduced yet, but... maybe?


Yngwulff
Gondor


Dec 27 2013, 3:48am

Post #12 of 12 (175 views)
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No confusion [In reply to] Can't Post

When Smaug dies they send for Dain to come secure hoard.
It will be assumed they have Arkenstone ... just have not located it yet amongst the great trove.
In the Book it isn't actually revealed to Thorin that Bilbo gave it to Bard until Dain shows up and they almost start fighting the Elves and Men ... Bilbo is still with Thorin and he reveals he gave it to them and Thorin boots him out.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”


 
 

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