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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Dec 26 2013, 4:28am
Post #26 of 59
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I don't think there is any way of determining to what extent this type of thing would be due to the Eldar's inate Elvish nature, and how much would be do to their exposure to the Undying lands, and to the Valar. But I would guess that they would apply to some extent. But again, as I noted before, we have an example of someone like Beleg who was both a great warrior and a great healer. Another example would be Elrond himself, who also was a warrior, but healed Frodo, and was noted by Aragorn as having great healing power.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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patrickk
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 4:38am
Post #27 of 59
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Otherwise it's difficult to see how the elf equivalent of a young adult is good or wise enough to be captain.
Montgomery was Colonel at 30 so he would have been a Captain in his 20s. Are you suggesting that women could not do it.
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patrickk
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 4:45am
Post #28 of 59
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...Montgomery was a famous rebel and was not promoted much after being made Colonel and was in a staff College position (sidelined into training) until WW2. So not all great generals are yes men!!!
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Snowghost77
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 4:51am
Post #29 of 59
(508 views)
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I was just throwing some military knowledge your way...
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I of course see your point bud...but to someone with some knowledge of military personel, it probably makes sense. Does to me anyway, just my opinion.
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 5:03am
Post #30 of 59
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I think the military analogies may be getting a bit out of hand...
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...after all these are elves we're talking about, mythical immortal beings inhabiting a fantasy universe. Their customs can't be directly compared to those of today's U.S. Army. I can't see Thranduil calling in Tauriel and telling her "Your TAMMS* really need work!" (One friend of mine--who BTW was a Captain in his late 20s-- was told this by his superior officer).
*The Army Maintenance Management System
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 5:54am
Post #31 of 59
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I'm glad you liked her, but to me she was unbelievable (as "captain", that is). She has one conversation with a dwarf (which in itself is very quick to materialize) and she's ready to give everything up? For me, if someone seemingly gives no second thought to deciding to give up what has been their entire life, it's reasonable to question if they should have been involved in it in the first place. If, as you suggest, she'd been feeling disgruntled and about to go over the edge for so long, she should have stepped down already.
And, to me, it makes Thranduil look foolish for appointing someone who is so diametrically opposed to what is a very important policy to him and that deals directly with the position.
I don't see what is so hard to understand that we are probably seeing her first real act of defiance BUT it's something that has, IMO, obviously been building up for some time. These events just happened to be the "straws that broke the camel's back" so to speak.
As I said, who is to say it was 'quick", who is to say its without a second thought. IMO it was presented as something she's been thinking about for some time but has only just now decided to act upon, given the extra impetus having met these outsiders, these dwarves on top of the increase in orc and spider activity that has been going on.
She clearly does not go around disregarding Thranduil all the time, maybe little things here and there but nothing big. Even in the discussion about the spiders, which was BEFORE her conversation with Kili and where she already is showing concern for those outside Mirkwood, all she does is politely question him, she hardly had some big argument with him about it.
And it's silly, IMO, to suggest she should have stepped down simply because she didn't agree on some matters of policy - it's very common for soldiers or law officers to disagree about various matters of policy, even those in positions of leadership, like captains, etc, it does't mean they all leave or should leave their jobs. There'd be no one with any experience to do these jobs if they were all leaving every time they disagreed on a matter of policy, even important matters of policy.
In fact I think it would be WORSE for those jobs or positions to be filled completely with "yes men" which is pretty much what is sounds like is being suggested. Even if they don't act on their disagreements all the time, there need to be people in those positions who genuinely THINK about what they are being asked to do and who might, when the time comes, make the decision to do the right thing rather than the simply what they are ordered to do.
Also, you may think it makes Thranduil look foolish, and while agree it may seem somewhat out of character for Thranduil as he's been presented so far, it would actually make me respect him MORE if he was willing to appoint someone who would question him and disagree with him.
A leader who is unwilling to be questioned or accept the talents of those who may disagree with them on some things is not a good leader.
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Altaira
Superuser
Dec 26 2013, 6:00am
Post #32 of 59
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I think you're spot on Snowghost
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Perhaps what we saw on screan is her first ever act of defiance.
If she had a history of disobeying orders, I doubt she'd still be a captain of the guard. No, I think she's just coming into her own as we meet her in the movie, and the introduction of beings from outside their realm, dwarves and orcs alike, make her realize that the time for action is now; not, as she tells Legolas, when the whole of Middle-earth has been conquered by darkness and the Elven halls of Mirkwood fall as a result.
As for a healer in battle, Elrond was among the foremost healers in Tolkien's work, yet he was front and center at the Last Alliance. I don't think we can compartmentalize the Elves as Tolkien wrote them into our own 'real-life' military stereotypes.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 6:00am
Post #33 of 59
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a movie-goer doesn't know that. Literally all we have to go on are the scenes in the film and you shouldn't have to read a backstory on her for it to make sense. It's the movie's responsibility to make the character believable.
More scenes in the Extended Edition may remedy (or ease) the issue, but this is all we have right now.
Not that hard to figure out, it's also implied in her conversation with Legolas. If she had parents who were around she probably would not have needed Thranduil's favor and protection for the last 600 years.
In fact I dare say most people who only have the movies to go on probably are questioning this stuff a lot less than people who are big "fans" of the books/films and know all the extra stuff.
It's like me and Harry Potter. I never read the books and one person I know was like "well how do you explain this and that and the other things" and for me I didn't even question them, they made enough sense within the 'verse of the films. I didn't need some big backstory about whatever it was he'd be going on about being changed and making everything not make sense.
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7.62 mm FMJ
Bree
Dec 26 2013, 6:10am
Post #34 of 59
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Her character's backstory was that her parents were killed by orcs when she was young.
In any case, the fact that she just abandoned her post and duties like that puts her leadership abilities in serious question.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 6:36am
Post #35 of 59
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Her character's backstory was that her parents were killed by orcs when she was young.
In any case, the fact that she just abandoned her post and duties like that puts her leadership abilities in serious question.
So did Legolas, he's not in the Mirkwood protecting it either. Thranduil's orders were that NO ONE was to leave. That included Legolas. But he left too.
And before someone says "but she didn't go after the orcs after they got to Bard's house". She started to follow Legolas but then Bofur showed up with the Kingsfoil.
She had a decision - go with the elven prince she knows has a very good chance of surviving or try to save the dwarf who will DEFINITELY die if she leaves. Logic would say save the dwarf who will definitely die without her, IMO. But it's not just about logic, some things are just the right thing to do. Logic would also have said get rid of that damn Gollum who couldn't be trusted. :)
I just can't imagine that within the ME universe as it's been presented to us that saving a good person would be considered a worse choice than killing some orcs. It was a difficult situation and I think Tauriel made the best choice that could be made under the circumstances.
The reason they ended up at Bard's house, where she could save Kili in the first place, is because that's where most of the orcs ended up due to the presence of the dwarves. Legolas didn't actually need to go after the orcs once they were leaving. I'd say it was probably a good decision, might as well get rid of them if you have the chance and keep them away from the OTHER dwarves, spec. Thorin, but it's seems a personal decision on Legolas's part to chase after Bolg, not so much a strategic one.
So I guess both of them are guilty of making "personal" decisions if Tauriel is, so is Legolas.
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 26 2013, 6:37am
Post #36 of 59
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Legolas appears to be the 'commanding' (using the best term I can think of) member of the Realm's forces. She's definitely not the person in charge.
I also remember the Captain of the Gate (my best guess of his actual title), who alerts Legolas of Tauriel's defiance.
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patrickk
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 6:51am
Post #37 of 59
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Her character's backstory was that her parents were killed by orcs when she was young.
In any case, the fact that she just abandoned her post and duties like that puts her leadership abilities in serious question. ...all good leaders will defy stupid orders from above (say from Thranduil) , so it is a matter of opinion of it puts her leaderhip ability in question. Many a battle has been won (even these days) by defying orders.
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Scorchster
Rivendell
Dec 26 2013, 7:00am
Post #38 of 59
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I feel she's just doing her job by being in opposition to Thranduil's policy of isolationism. Her job as captain of the guard is the defense of the realm, and her desires to destroy the spiders at their source and pursue the orcs are actually quite justified for her role. As captain she would probably be looking to destroy threats from without and that brings her ideas into conflict with Thranduil's. She is understandably annoyed at being unable to kill the spiders and orcs - they'll just keep coming back and make things difficult for her as captain.
I think she's just doing her job in advising him to rid the threats to the woodland realm. Of course deserting her post isn't very captain-like behaviour..
(This post was edited by Scorchster on Dec 26 2013, 7:01am)
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emre43
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 8:17am
Post #39 of 59
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And why should a 22 year old not be captain
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if they are good enough for the job?
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Snowghost77
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 8:28am
Post #40 of 59
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You have to undsrstand that tolkien himself was a soldier and infantryman, so its not far fetched to think he called on his own real military knowledge and experiences when creating the militaries of his created races. I mean I believe he started creating ME right after he got back from the war. Id say its safe to say his army experiences influenced his writing at least to some degree. I believe jackson is staying true to the spirit.
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you
(This post was edited by Snowghost77 on Dec 26 2013, 8:29am)
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Snowghost77
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 8:42am
Post #41 of 59
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In a line platoon will be right there in the thick of the fight with the 11 bravo's...(infantrymen). This is especially true in special operations when you work in smaller teams. When wed roll out on our SKT's with a 6 man team, and engaged the enemy, the medic couldn't help but be right in the middle.
All infantrymen also go through numerous combat life saver courses, where you learn everything from treating sunk in chest wounds to administering IV's. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for a warrior, especially a commander to know how to treat wounds.
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you
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Snowghost77
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 8:51am
Post #42 of 59
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I agree with what you say as well Altaira...
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And plus for all we know drawing poison from a wound could be very basic healing for an elf. Its not like it was a wound from a morgul blade or anything.
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you
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DavidDevant
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 10:24am
Post #43 of 59
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I think these issues are perhaps based on some personal assumptions.
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1. This is not raised by the film and seems an odd way to look at it. Instead why not ask if 550 years is a reasonable period to demonstrate competence in a career?
2. Why shouldn't she know about kingsfoil, I'm confused?
3. Why wouldn't an elf captain have learned about healing in 600 years?
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2013, 11:22am
Post #44 of 59
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elf years can't really be compared to human years at a given rate
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they mature similarly and then simply age very slowly, with age only adding to their beauty and wisdom. So a 600 year old elf has had plenty of time to earn a captaincy.
Think of Maeglin in Gondolin in the First Age. He was born in that Age so he would have been no more than approximately 500 years old yet he was held in the highest esteem in Gondolin, a city populated with Valinorean Noldor.
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wonderinglinguist
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 5:43pm
Post #45 of 59
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the part where I said a captain should be a "yes man"....
I never said she should agree with Thranduil 100%. She is, though, completely opposed to him on an issue that is in direct relation to her position as the head of the guard. That's kind of a big deal. Add in her known rebellious nature and it seems silly, to me, that she would be the "captain" --which again is all this boils down to. If she was "captain-in-training" or just a guard member, I'd have absolutely no problems whatsoever. That's not the case, though. She is the "head" of the elven gaurd. Militarily, she's second only to Thranduil (well, and maybe Legolas). That's a huge position.
As this is all fairly subjective, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you think she's the greatest thing and will defend her to death, that's fine, but I don't think she's perfect --I find some things about how she was written, like this, that don't quite make sense and seem silly. That's all :)
keep smiling 
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wonderinglinguist
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 5:54pm
Post #46 of 59
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Voronwe made a post above with a quote from Tolkien in regards to elven healers. In a nutshell, a warrior won't be a healer and a healer won't be a warrior.
keep smiling
(This post was edited by wonderinglinguist on Dec 26 2013, 6:02pm)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 26 2013, 6:01pm
Post #48 of 59
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And as posted by others afterwards..
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There are examples of elven warriors also being great healers(see Belgon and Elrond). It's not even an actual rule. Sounds more like one of those ideals that didn't actually get much practice in reality.
All I can to say with regards to Tauriel's disagreements is that it doesn't seem to me that she was going around constantly rebelling, she had her opinions but she mostly did as she was ordered to, we are only seeing the point where she stopped doing that.
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wonderinglinguist
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 6:04pm
Post #49 of 59
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a "less wise," "lowly" Silvan elf that's not even in the book is on the same level as Beleg and Elrond?? Wow.
keep smiling
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DavidDevant
Lorien
Dec 26 2013, 6:14pm
Post #50 of 59
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What has status to do with it?
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You posted a couple of posts up that elves who fight are not healers and vice versa. When presented with counter examples which clearly demonstrate this is not a clear cut matter you move on to questions of status - what has the one to do with the other?
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