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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Fili is being sidelined *book/movie spoilers*

Rane
Bree


Dec 23 2013, 1:35am

Post #1 of 25 (1691 views)
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Fili is being sidelined *book/movie spoilers* Can't Post

Sorry if there's a similar thread, I tried looking and couldn't find it.

Did anyone else think Fili was ignored for the most part? PJ is really pushing Kili on us while Fili is just there to shout "Kili!" once in a while (an exaggeration, but still). If he is indeed going to die along with Thorin and Kili he needs more lines. His death won't seem that big of a deal in the end. He's the next in line for the throne, he deserves more attention along with Kili.

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Elskidor
Rohan


Dec 23 2013, 1:39am

Post #2 of 25 (1059 views)
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Fili is being punished for coming [In reply to] Can't Post

in months later than the rest of the dwarves. The other 12 dwarves had been with the team for quite awhile before Fili joined them. I doubt it's the reason, but it could be a contributing factor.

Tolkien Elimination Game

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=689393;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


tsmith675
Gondor


Dec 23 2013, 1:39am

Post #3 of 25 (1036 views)
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I have a feeling... [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili will be very, very prominent in TaBA. He hasn't had a lot of development, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of him in the next film. We have enough of Kili, even now, to care about his death. Fili just needs a little more to him, which I think will be addressed.

"This day we FIGHT!"


Rane
Bree


Dec 23 2013, 1:48am

Post #4 of 25 (931 views)
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I kinda got that vibe [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope PJ does feature him more. It'd make sense. Both Kili and Fili had a roughly equal amount of screen time in the 1st Hobbit. Kili gets this film, and Fili should get the next. Then they all die Frown

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wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Dec 23 2013, 2:10am

Post #5 of 25 (826 views)
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That's my hope [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Kili gets this film, and Fili should get the next.


keep smiling Smile


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Dec 23 2013, 2:58am

Post #6 of 25 (835 views)
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I got the impression that Fili was highlighted in this movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

We certainly saw a fair bit of him at any opportunity - I wondered if this was to balance AUJ where Dean O'Gorman was a late addition and Rob Kazinski's Fili had been obscured in some scenes.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Saurons master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 23 2013, 3:25am

Post #7 of 25 (840 views)
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Fili had some awesome moments to shine in DOS [In reply to] Can't Post

There was the scene in Laketown where he stood up to Thorin, and it was mentioned that he's the heir to the throne and Thorin's nephew. He refused to leave his brother on principle, believing that if Kili couldn't see the door then he wouldn't either. Not only that, but he mentions that they grew up on stories Thorin told them about the mountain, providing some wonderful background there and highlighting their close relationship. And it also highlighted the brother's relationship- "I belong with my brother." His loyalty to Kili is worth more to him than his loyalty to Thorin, and for the heir to the king that says a LOT about the brother's bond.

Then there was the cut in Laketown where Fili tells Bard to go and get his children out of there, and Bard responded that there was nowhere to go. You can most assuredly see the prince in this scene (who may well fear that he is now king at this point, not knowing how the dwarves were faring against Smaug and from the tremors guessing rightly that it wasn't going well).

You also see the prince in him where he not only stops the arguing at bag end that erupts after Balin expresses concern about their lack of numbers, but interjects with an excellent pep speech- "We may be few in number..." Exactly as a leader should.

I think the actor switch affected him quite negatively, but they are making up for it. Plus I loved his "hidden arsenal" search moments- that was hysterical! Especially his reaction, which spoke that he thought he got away with it.....and found out he didn't Wink

Gaubdûkhimâ gagin yâkùlib Mahal

May we meet again with the grace of Mahal

"Mizimel. Her name is Mizimel, because children are and always will be the jewel of all jewels. They are the greatest treasure one could ever have."



Fili
Lorien


Dec 23 2013, 4:15am

Post #8 of 25 (791 views)
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The Rumors Of My Sidelining Have Been Greatly Exaggerated [In reply to] Can't Post

Cirashala pointed out my awesome highlights in this film.

Now mind you, I HAD to be used in small doses in these first two movies, because I really am what every woman in the audience would kill for: the perfect blend of style and substance. I'm as handsome as Kili, yet I'm as noble as Thorin. In fact, many of you probably already realize that I'd make a far better King Under the Mountain than my uncle and all his baggage.

If the film makers let the true potential that is Fili loose on the screen this early, you'd all be saying, "Thorin WHO? Kili WHO? And WHY is this called the Hobbit, anyway? It should be called 'Aule's Gift to Dwarfdom!'"

My scenes so far have been short but potent. Dori, Ori, and Nori's agent keeps sending me death threats! But wait until TABA, when they let me unleash the Fili all over you guys. After that, I'll rather face a Battle of 500 Armies than all the other actor's agents!

All these gifts come with a price, that's all I'm saying! Wink

So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Dec 23 2013, 4:42am

Post #9 of 25 (710 views)
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I think he will be in TABA more [In reply to] Can't Post

I do agree he had little time (or at least dialogue) in DoS. I think that establishing his closeness to Kili is important and at least they are doing that, since he disobeyed Thorin's orders. But I'm willing to bet he is featured more in TABA Smile


Elizabeth
Valinor


Dec 23 2013, 5:10am

Post #10 of 25 (753 views)
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Next in line for the throne? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe in movie verse. Fili and Kili are sons of Thorin's sister Ds, and the line of the throne went via patrilineal primogeniture. Even if Fli and Kli had survived, Din Ironfoot would still have been the King of the Longbeards after Thorin. He was Thorin's second cousin, grandson of Thrr's younger brother. Kli still outranks Tauriel, though.








Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 23 2013, 5:23am

Post #11 of 25 (695 views)
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egotistical much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

You did forget that you have been dubbed sir swagesty though Tongue

Gaubdûkhimâ gagin yâkùlib Mahal

May we meet again with the grace of Mahal

"Mizimel. Her name is Mizimel, because children are and always will be the jewel of all jewels. They are the greatest treasure one could ever have."



Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 23 2013, 5:30am

Post #12 of 25 (702 views)
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that is very interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't thought of it that way.

But wouldn't Fili and Kili actually be 2nd and 3rd in line since they were of the elder line of Durin? Dain is descended from a younger brother, rather than an older one.

But it is also interesting to note that, with Thorin not having a son at the time of death, had Fili and Kili lived that would have been the first time in the entire history of the line of Durin that the issue of maternal lineage would have come up, since it went unbroken from father to son. Every other previous king had a son at the time of his death, but Thorin did not.

This would make a fantastic TAS essay I think Smile

Gaubdûkhimâ gagin yâkùlib Mahal

May we meet again with the grace of Mahal

"Mizimel. Her name is Mizimel, because children are and always will be the jewel of all jewels. They are the greatest treasure one could ever have."



marillaraina
Rohan


Dec 23 2013, 6:15am

Post #13 of 25 (649 views)
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That's an assumption [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Maybe in movie verse. Fili and Kili are sons of Thorin's sister Ds, and the line of the throne went via patrilineal primogeniture. Even if Fli and Kli had survived, Din Ironfoot would still have been the King of the Longbeards after Thorin. He was Thorin's second cousin, grandson of Thrr's younger brother. Kli still outranks Tauriel, though.


This is an assumption. We don't know that the Dwarves would not allow a daughter's sons to be king. It just hadn't happened yet because there was no need, it had always gone directly from father to son, that doesn't mean they were against the idea if it so happened that there was only a daughter who had male children.

I feel like Tolkien would have mentioned if Dain Ironfoot was always going to inherit the throne if Thorin was out of the picture in The Hobbit itself. Also then he wouldn't have needed to kill Kili and Fili off(esp. given the off handed way it was done, like it was sort of last minute "oops what am I gonna do with them?" thing).


Ardamr
Valinor


Dec 23 2013, 6:42am

Post #14 of 25 (649 views)
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Not sidelined, per se... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I also don't think he's one of the "main" dwarves. Those seem to be Thorin, Balin, and Kili. All the others seem to be background characters with varying amounts of screen time. That was actually something I really enjoyed about DOS - it felt like the dwarves altogether were more prominent.

"Yet fairest of all are the willows of Nan-tathren, pale green, or silver in the wind, and the rustle of their innumerable leaves is a spell of music: day and night would flicker by uncounted, while still I stood knee-deep in grass and listened. There I was enchanted, and forgot the Sea in my heart." - Unfinished Tales


Fili
Lorien


Dec 23 2013, 7:07am

Post #15 of 25 (646 views)
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Agnatic Primogeniture, Matrilineal Marriage, And Other Fun Words At Parties [In reply to] Can't Post

If the dwarves practiced a standard form of primogeniture, then Dain Ironfoot would indeed be the heir to the throne.

BUT

There might be an exception if Dis, the mother of Fili and Kili, had been part of a matrilineal marriage, whereby the children born of Dis would belong to the Durin dynasty and not the clan of their father. This rarely happened in Europe, but has happened in other cultures throughout history.

If this were the case, then primogeniture would say that Fili and Kili DID have a greater claim to the throne, as they are of the Durin dynasty with Thrain II as their nearest agnate who held the crown, while Dain's closest crown-wearing agnate was Dain I, Thror's father, two generations removed from Fili and Kili's claims.

So MAYBE Fili and Kili's dad wasn't much to write home about, but Dis' marriage was made matrilineal to protect the line in case Thorin never married or had children?

So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.

(This post was edited by Fili on Dec 23 2013, 7:07am)


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 23 2013, 7:32am

Post #16 of 25 (600 views)
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excellent solution [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no doubt that something would have had to be done at that point, since a king who is not a fool would secure the naming of his heir should he not return from a (frankly) suicidal mission....

And it is possible that Thorin was among those dwarves who would have chosen to never marry, since Dis had two sons that he could claim as heirs. And also, it is possible that an adoption of sorts could have taken place to allow them to be Thorin's sons/heirs if he was essentially given guardianship over them. I think that sort of term is called live adoption, but I am not sure.

I would say that Thorin would have likely found a way to name them as his heirs before the quest with the contingency that, should Erebor's reclamation be successful, and if he married and produced children thereafter, then their claim would be negated. But if he didn't then their claim would be legit.

Gaubdûkhimâ gagin yâkùlib Mahal

May we meet again with the grace of Mahal

"Mizimel. Her name is Mizimel, because children are and always will be the jewel of all jewels. They are the greatest treasure one could ever have."



jkm7
Bree


Dec 23 2013, 10:21am

Post #17 of 25 (580 views)
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Dis never married? [In reply to] Can't Post

I also noted, that neither of them is ever introduced as son of..... In a society where you carry half your (male) family tree in your name this seems very strange. Thorin is always, son of Thrain son of Thror, Balin signs the contract with son of Fundin. When Thorin introduces them in Laketown, shouldn't he introduce them as Fili and Kili sons of (whatever the name of their father was)? But no, he calls them, "the sons of my fathers daughter."
What if Dis was never married? In a lot of societies, illegitimate children were not thought as even being related to their biological father, let alone allowed to carry his name. They belonged to their mothers family only. Maybe they even have different fathers? They don't look that similar to each other, compeltely different hair and eye colour, different shaped facial features.If at all they could be half brothers imho.


(This post was edited by jkm7 on Dec 23 2013, 10:23am)


CathrineB
Rohan


Dec 23 2013, 10:58am

Post #18 of 25 (557 views)
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Their father [In reply to] Can't Post

I read somewhere that Fili and Kili's father killed himself after learning the news of his sons - though if I remember correct I thiiink it was on one of those tolkien/lotr/hobbit wikia pages so I dunno how believable this is?

Though in the movies - although not mentioned in the movies Richard has mentioned something about Fili and Kili's father being dead which is why at this point in their lives they're closer and loyal to Thorin.

Anyway regarding Fili, I was glad to see more of him in this movie and yes I hope we get even more of him in the last one! Now, these two boys has been my favorites in the books too since I read it eleven years ago so I'll be crying like a baby for them both either way but I guess I'm a bit biased Sly But anyway I adore Fili. Would never mind more.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 23 2013, 11:58pm

Post #19 of 25 (282 views)
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I doubt [In reply to] Can't Post

that Dis, being royal (and having Thorin for a brother) would have ever gotten knocked up, let alone twice, without marriage. I would feel that, had that happened, their father would have married Dis at Thorin's swordpoint if necessary....

Fili and Kili have different hair color, but both look similar to Thorin. Kili has more of Thorin's coloring, and the thicker eyebrows (and his imitating the "Thorin glare" is adorable in the hero worship imitation is the sincerest form of flattery way Wink). However, if you look closely Fili's hair is wavy like Thorin's, and his scalp line is nearly the same shape as the young Thorin's from the prologue (I expect Thorin in the movie was not much older than Fili is during the quest at the time of Erebor's demise). Plus, Fili's beard has a bit more on the chin than cheeks, and Thorin's does as well. And Fili has Thorin's nose.

They may not look alike to each other, but it's pretty obvious that both are related to Thorin. Had Fili's hair been dark like Kili's and Thorin's I think the resemblance would be a lot more apparent, but I honestly don't think Dean O'Gorman could have pulled off dark hair, just like Turner likely wouldn't convincingly pull off blond hair.

In all honesty my husband when he grows his beard out on vacation (work requires clean shaven), and if his hair was long instead of buzzed short, would be nearly identical to Kili, or darn close to it. Definitely would look more like his brother than Fili does Wink Could even be Kili's stunt double, if he didn't value the idea of living Tongue

Gaubdûkhimâ gagin yâkùlib Mahal

May we meet again with the grace of Mahal

"Mizimel. Her name is Mizimel, because children are and always will be the jewel of all jewels. They are the greatest treasure one could ever have."



KasDel
Rivendell


Dec 24 2013, 4:58am

Post #20 of 25 (248 views)
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I am now... [In reply to] Can't Post

thoroughly CONFUSED!!!!!!Tongue

KasDel the Last

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." Gildor


jkm7
Bree


Dec 24 2013, 4:47pm

Post #21 of 25 (191 views)
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Okay [In reply to] Can't Post

Your're probably right, it's unlikely that Dis was never married. Still, strange that neither of them gets ever introduced as son of.... Unfortunately we will never know who their father was, just like Legolas' mother this will remain a mystery and object for endless speculation ;-)


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Dec 24 2013, 6:27pm

Post #22 of 25 (179 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if I mentioned it in my previous post, but if their guardianship was officially transferred to Thorin upon entering the "apprenticeship" stage of their lives (or after their father died) then there may be no need. Or their mother's station supersedes their father's given her royal birth.

I honestly don't see any formal introduction of them in the movie (not the son of __ son of __ sort). Balin was listed as son of Fundin on a formal contract. Thorin was introduced in Esgaroth fairly formally, and also on the contract Thorin son of Thrain was formal.

The lads are never introduced formally so far, thus negating any need for a formal introduction. And, since Thorin knew he was being hunted, and that Azog in particular was wanting to wipe out the line of Durin (and the lads are directly part of that royal line), he may have wanted to avoid mentioning their lineage publicly for their safety.

If an assassination is being planned, you don't give the assassins additional targets. And Thorin is wise enough to know that. In fact, they only call him Thorin (with exception to a very quiet conversation with Fili and Thorin, where Fili refers to him as uncle). I would like to think that hiding their lineage for safety reasons had something to do with that.



Bard'sBlackArrow
Lorien

Dec 24 2013, 10:19pm

Post #23 of 25 (151 views)
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this makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The lads are never introduced formally so far, thus negating any need for a formal introduction. And, since Thorin knew he was being hunted, and that Azog in particular was wanting to wipe out the line of Durin (and the lads are directly part of that royal line), he may have wanted to avoid mentioning their lineage publicly for their safety.

If an assassination is being planned, you don't give the assassins additional targets. And Thorin is wise enough to know that. In fact, they only call him Thorin (with exception to a very quiet conversation with Fili and Thorin, where Fili refers to him as uncle). I would like to think that hiding their lineage for safety reasons had something to do with that.


In Reply To

A nice theory, thanks for posting.


Kilidoescartwheels
Gondor

Dec 24 2013, 11:16pm

Post #24 of 25 (141 views)
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But he had some cool scenes in DOS [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He seemed to keep up with the "Be cool Bro" memes going on out there - and I LOVED the scene where the elf was searching him for weapons, and he had so many stashed, even nearly got one in the cell. And the fight scene in Bard's house was also excellent, very well choreographed IMO.

I do agree he had little time (or at least dialogue) in DoS. I think that establishing his closeness to Kili is important and at least they are doing that, since he disobeyed Thorin's orders. But I'm willing to bet he is featured more in TABA Smile



BalrogTrainer
Rivendell

Dec 25 2013, 4:45am

Post #25 of 25 (144 views)
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Kli definitely... [In reply to] Can't Post

... usurped Bofur in this movie for third most screen time among the Dwarves (he may have even usurped Balin for second most as well Unimpressed). As others have said, I'm pretty sure Fli's screen time will increase in TABA... but he did have 2 prominent moments in this one: 1) the humorous bit of the Elves trying to remove all his weapons from his person, and 2) the moment where he defies Thorin, of course. If any Dwarves were sidelined in this movie, I'd say they'd be Dori, Ori and Bifur, all of whom seemed to have (even) less to do than in AUJ. If not for Bombur's 'hero moment' in the barrel scene, he'd be on that list as well... though he's STILL the only Dwarf whom we've not yet heard speak. Unsure


(This post was edited by BalrogTrainer on Dec 25 2013, 4:46am)

 
 

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