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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Where were the Nine during DOS?

TheImaginator
Rivendell

Dec 22 2013, 11:21pm

Post #1 of 17 (868 views)
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Where were the Nine during DOS? Can't Post

One of the Nine attacks Radagast in AUJ, showing that they are clearly "loose". They tombs in the High Fells are broken out of. Then, how come, when Gandalf explores Dol Guldor, none of them are present?

Even though surely Azog and his orcs are powerful, why wouldn't the Nine be waiting around ready for the "trap" on Gandalf as they were when Radagast decided to explore?

Can someone explain to me if they were somewhere else, if it is stupid to think they would be at DG or if this is slightly odd?


dormouse
Half-elven


Dec 22 2013, 11:42pm

Post #2 of 17 (505 views)
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I think the answer is 'wait and see'... [In reply to] Can't Post

No one can tell you yet with any certainty, because no one has seen any more than you have. But as they've made a point of saying in the films that the Nine are about, I'm sure they'll come back to it somehow.


sycorax82
Rohan

Dec 23 2013, 1:01am

Post #3 of 17 (406 views)
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At least some of them should still be in Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

Sadly, they are another element messed up by the three film split and the expansion of the role of Azog. Gandalf was most likely going to face at least the Witch King in Dol Guldur, before the Necromancer appeared, but this had to change due to Azog needing something to do...


xxxyyy
Rohan

Dec 23 2013, 1:10am

Post #4 of 17 (434 views)
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I have the feeling they are following secretly someone carrying a particular ring. [In reply to] Can't Post

Some are still in DG, some are following closely Bilbo.
I have the feeling the Witch King will be at BOFA, scaring the crap out of Bilbo who will not put the Ring on for a loooong time, until his 111th birthday. Then the Nazgul will leave Minas Morgul.
Exacly, when did Saruman said the Nazgul left Minas Morgul (in the movies) and when is Bilbo's birthday?
Or Bilbo could begin using again the Ring near his 111th birthday, if the Nazgul left before it.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 1:40am

Post #5 of 17 (384 views)
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i like this theory [In reply to] Can't Post

it would make sense as to why Bilbo never used the ring for about 60 years after the BOT5A.

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 3:52am

Post #6 of 17 (332 views)
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I really missed them.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought with the high fells/ Dol Guldor preview,that we were going to see them, but I guess they are still supposed to be a mystery.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 3:55am

Post #7 of 17 (319 views)
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The fact that... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Sauron was revealed before the Nine kind of renders the whole High Fells thing pointless IMO. The bigger, more important reveal (Sauron) has already occurred.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 4:08am

Post #8 of 17 (337 views)
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I thought that the Necromancer.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Was going to be the WK, and the Nazgul to be the menace of DOS. I thought they were going to to do something to bring Sauron back, Al a necromancy.

They were really playing up the Dol Guldur/High Fells angle, and it seems to have fallen a little flat.Unsure I hope the EE fixes this bit, or TABA gives a pretty good reason for the disappearance of the Nazgul.

IMHO, there is no real tension and mystery to the RWs in FoTR. I KNEW they were evil the second I clapped eyes on them. I think it odd that such a plot ending has been left open in DOS.

Yes, the reveal of Sauron does depreciate the advent, if it ever comes in this trilogy, of the Nazgul.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 4:38am

Post #9 of 17 (323 views)
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maybe sauron sent them to mordor to get things ready for his return [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 4:53am

Post #10 of 17 (330 views)
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By book lore... [In reply to] Can't Post

That is what they WERE doing. They set Mordor up for Sauron, while Sauron distracted the White Council. They thought that the Nazgul were just fooling around in Mordor, and ignored them, for the most part. But the secret plan was for Sauron to retreat to a place of strength, or feigning retreat and buy himself time to grow stronger in Mordor.

The High fells scene does seem a little pointless if they Nazgul are going to be absent from the main action. If they had said,"These were the most powerful servants of the great enemy, enslaved to his will. When he fell, they were thrown down, and sealed here. I wonder what has called them forth?" It would make more sense, IMO. A foreshadowing of their master's return.

The big deal they made of their escape could have been more pointed and suspenseful. Why did they escape? How? Where are they? These questions are suddenly answered to us LoTR fans,by big reveal of Sauron. Now we knew it was him, but If they had kept up the ruse that the DG plot was the doing of the WK( hey, they had his sword, mentioned that he knew magic, and that he was buried and dead WITH the others. Everything in AUJ pointed to, and centred on the WK!!), it would have been more surprising to the non-book savvy, that there was ANOTHER boss.

Just my two cents... Maybe they have a twist in TABA for us. In any case, TABA will likely be very much centred on Dol Guldor.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 6:28am

Post #11 of 17 (295 views)
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good point, but [In reply to] Can't Post

these films are a trilogy in of themselves, to have the high fells solely to setup FOTR/LOTR's would be a little ridiculous especially since we saw the Witch King fight Radagast in AUJ. We need to either see the nine or the witch king again in TABA, it might be something like the scene where Gandalf enters Mirkwood and it flashes back to Galadriel telling Gandalf to investigate the high fells...the nine are summoned to dol-guldur in-front of a helpless Gandalf and it flashes back to him in the high fells.

I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent


Arandir
Gondor


Dec 23 2013, 9:13am

Post #12 of 17 (246 views)
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But he did use it, didn't he? [In reply to] Can't Post

I seem to recall that he used to wear the Ring when unwanted visitors came by, or an instance when Lobelia was coming his way and he suddenly disappeared (as witnessed by Merry). ..

Again, I could be wrong about this, but I believe it is present in the text.

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


dormouse
Half-elven


Dec 23 2013, 12:04pm

Post #13 of 17 (203 views)
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Yes, it is, and he did // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


xxxyyy
Rohan

Dec 23 2013, 2:22pm

Post #14 of 17 (167 views)
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We don't know. We haven't seen THE MOVIE yet. [In reply to] Can't Post

You are talking about the book, but in the movie I hope it's handled differently, that's to say Bilbo will not use it until the approching of this 111th birthday, when Sauron is waking up again.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2013, 3:47pm

Post #15 of 17 (161 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

That was my point. If they aren't going to use their return as a plot point, why show the scene at all? Only the book readers would know, or even guess it was really Sauron. What dramatic purpose does it serve in the context of this trilogy, if they are only to reappear in FoTR? I agree with you.

In my last post, I speculated that they might have been used to greater dramatic effect, especially as the only visible head of evil in AUJ, is consolidated in the Witch King of Angmar. That was the whole reason for the High Fells scene, I thought, a continuation of the search for the source of evil,and to confirm that the WK had escaped. If they had kept up the ruse that the Necromancer was the WK, it would have been more dramatic when the REAL head was revealed. IMO, they revealed Sauron much too quickly, and rushed the WK off the stage. They could have thrown in a few hints that it was someone more powerful in Dol Guldor, then revealed Sauron, a surprise to all, and maybe the reason Gandalf's was caught unawares?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


DavidDevant
Lorien

Dec 23 2013, 4:20pm

Post #16 of 17 (148 views)
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I think the point was to [In reply to] Can't Post

Demonstrate to Gandalf the severity of what was happening in Dol Guldur, and thus the need to abandon the dwarves and Bilbo and place himself in danger.

Or am I missing something?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 24 2013, 6:15am

Post #17 of 17 (82 views)
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Nah...were just speculating [In reply to] Can't Post

Until we see how it ends, I will defer final appraisal. So nothing to miss.

I was just left with quesrioms, when the open tombs were not explained. It certainly did create the situation you describe, and lend an air of mystery to the story. Too much mystery IMHO. I was left with too many questions, and thought that a movie firster might be too.

Looking forward, I was wondering how they will deal with Sauron being defeated twice. I'm wondering if LoTR won't just be seen as Sauron gets trounced: part 2--the rematch. Making Sauron the obvious antagonist does set up LoTR, but if the main enemy in the DG sub-plot had been the WK, in even a figure head capacity, I think that the movies would have been a bit more interesting.

Sauron, if dominant in TABA, might bore the Hobbit audience in AUJ. If he is the active head of evil in TH, he certainly loses a lot of mobility in LoTR. I think that if they had kept the Sauron reveal till TABA, there would have been more forward momentum into LoTR. We all know that Sauron has to survive, and he has this invincible status now. He HAS to live for LoTR. It takes a bit of mystery out of it. If the WK were the main antagonist, there would be a little doubt in our minds, or in the non-book readers' minds, that he could be defeated. If he were, then he could run back to Sauron, and that would be the bog reveal, catapulting us into LoTR where all the pieces and clause about the Ring comes together.

The DG sub-plot could have been an arc leading to the reveal of Sauron as its culmination. The nature of the Ring could then be the culmination of the LoTR arc.

Well we will see what TABA has in store. It could be better than my mind could imagine. This is just opinion and conjecture based on incomplete evidences.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

 
 

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