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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
What are the islands on the map of ME in this scene?

Rainalkar
Registered User

Dec 17 2013, 5:20pm

Post #1 of 13 (1632 views)
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What are the islands on the map of ME in this scene? Can't Post

You can see them top left. I have never seen them before on any map.




cats16
Valinor


Dec 17 2013, 5:45pm

Post #2 of 13 (1545 views)
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Hmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bigger, clicky version here.


Remnants of Beleriand, I suspect. The island of Himling is north of the cut-off point on this map, shown here.

It looks like these islands read "...Morwen" (there appears to be a word before this--perhaps something like "Tol"? I need to look at maps of Beleriand first. The other reads "Tol Cuin"--I think.

Couldn't find anything that resembled either word. That is the best I can do, although it doesn't solve anything. I feel like this map was made specifically for the film, so I have no idea if they're even meant to be specific places.

I'll defer to anyone with better knowledge about the maps.

Edit: Can you enlarge your picture? I just realized, while squinting, that your picture focuses on a bigger area west of Ered Luin, and shows more than the one I linked.





(This post was edited by cats16 on Dec 17 2013, 5:55pm)


Rainalkar
Registered User

Dec 17 2013, 5:58pm

Post #3 of 13 (1434 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

The map you posted is not the same as mine. Mine is from just after the FotR prologue when Bilbo speaks.

I am looking at my map again. There are two islands. Smaller on the right is Himling, but the bigger on the left is Tol something, but it doesn't seem to read Cuin. The first letter is F I think.

Where is your map from?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 17 2013, 6:01pm

Post #4 of 13 (1413 views)
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Guesses [In reply to] Can't Post

I read Tol Morwen and Tol Fuin

Morwen was Turin's mother and she died atop his and Nienor's grave. It was rumored that the stone monument on the grave survived tue ruin of Beleriand and was not covered by the waves.

Fuin means mirk or shadow, Tar-nu-fuin was a name for Mirkwood. Island of Shadow? A reference to the enchanted Isles? An in universe conceit that was added to the end of the maps to mark the extent of knowledge, similar to here be dragons?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rainalkar
Registered User

Dec 17 2013, 6:05pm

Post #5 of 13 (1421 views)
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.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've looked at ME maps hundreds of time, and this is the first time that I notice this :).

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tolmorwen.html

Shows three islands. Tol Morwen, Tol Fuin and Himling. I don't think that any, except Himling was on any "official" ME map. And this is the first time that I see that Himling is Himring, Meadhros' seat. I didn't think that Tol Morwen was so close to Lindon.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Dec 17 2013, 6:12pm

Post #6 of 13 (1482 views)
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Tol Morwen, Tol Fuin and Himling [In reply to] Can't Post

Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth describes Tol Morwen: Small island in Belegaer off the coast of Lindon, formed during the ruin of Beleriand at the end of the First Age. The center of Tol Morwen was the grave of Turin and Morwen and the Stone of the Hapless.

I am not finding anything on Tol Fuin or the Isle of Himling beyond the names.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


cats16
Valinor


Dec 17 2013, 6:16pm

Post #7 of 13 (1421 views)
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I thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

They were the same, but from different angles. But I could be wrong there.

I found another one here, which shows Himling, Tol Fuin(I agree, the second word does start with the letter "F"), and Tol Morwen(?). This is clearly a different map, but it shows the same things we're looking at.

Tol Fuin translates to "Isle of Gloom (listed as "Night" by the Wikia page)". Here is its Wiki page. So its from the Taur-nu-Fuin region. Well that makes sense!CrazyCool I don't know why that eluded me before.

Aha! Here is the page we're looking for: http://www.isleyunruh.com/?p=2756. So, indeed, they are Himling, Tol Fuin, and Tol Morwen. Whoa! I didn't know it was referring to the place where Túrin slew Glaurung, died, and was buried with Morwen! That's an important island, then! I guess I didn't remember it being mentioned that part of it stayed above the Sea.

Many thanks for bringing this up, Ralnalkar! This is very helpful information. Smile

Edit: Just saw the info. brought up by Rem and O-S. Very cool.


(This post was edited by cats16 on Dec 17 2013, 6:18pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 17 2013, 6:23pm

Post #8 of 13 (1426 views)
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Links [In reply to] Can't Post

Tol Himling (Himring)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Himring

An island that was Himling in Beleriand, and that the UT confirms.

Tol Fuin

[urlhttp://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tol_Fuin

UT is cited by the site


Tol Morwen

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tol_Morwen

The Sil is cited.

These references all have citations, and that lends credence to their cases in my mind.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rainalkar
Registered User

Dec 17 2013, 6:56pm

Post #9 of 13 (1428 views)
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.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, fascinating. How about another question? Can Túrin's tomb still be found, if someone should sail there? It ought to be. And what can be found on Himling? Maedhros' citadel?


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 18 2013, 1:41am

Post #10 of 13 (1393 views)
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Welcome Rainalkar! [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I understand he was simply placed in the mound they rose, so no tomb per se. (Theoretically, I suppose it could be found...unless it is hidden by the Valar, which I suppose it might be.) If the Second Prophecy of Mandos is believed, he will rise from that grave at the Last Battle with a renewed Gurthang to avenge his family and the suffering of Men on Melkor.

Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 18 2013, 3:32am

Post #11 of 13 (1380 views)
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Guessing here, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am sure the Stone of the Hapless would still be found, but I am unsure whether the Citadel would stand. The poetic effect of the Stone was to commemorate the victory of Turin, but the Citadel, though it stood firm, was a monument to failure of the Siege. I don't think so, but you had the Halls of Turgon in Nevrast that was left undefiled and strong, so maybe...

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


squire
Valinor


Dec 20 2013, 4:33am

Post #12 of 13 (1349 views)
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They're kind of misty and mystical [In reply to] Can't Post

As others have found and posted, these islands have a rich but apocryphal history in the post-Tolkien era. Each has a basis in some minor mention or draft from Tolkien's notes or unpublished works; their purpose in each case seems to be a commemoration of some part or other of Beleriand that "survived" the drowning of the original Western Lands at the end of the Second Age.

As far as I can tell, none of them appear on the published map of Middle-earth that Tolkien's son Christopher drew for the Lord of the Rings volumes. He had included Himling in his first sketch, but left it out of the final version apparently for reasons of relevance. I see that this little island does finally appear in Christopher's revised map that he produced for Unfinished Tales. In his foreword for that work he explains the addition as being one of a number of improvements and corrections he made when given a chance to re-do his hastily-compiled 1950s version; he mentions that Tol Fuin also exists, based on his father's sketches, but that even for Unfinished Tales he did not feel justified in adding it to the "official" Middle-earth (Third Age) map, revised.

In his Unfinished Tales notes, he does not mention the Morwen islet, which must be further to the west - its location is indeterminate, to put it mildly, since it occurs as an island only in a textual reference, never on any map that either of the Tolkiens drew. One can speculate on what other remnants of Beleriand are poking about above the waves. Interestingly, the 'Akallabeth' mentions the legend that Meneltarma, the central mountain of Numenor, also survived the deluge as a mystic island in mid-ocean. But the text suggests that no mariner ever found it.

The movies' cartographers, like a lot of other fan map-makers, have felt free to add anything to the Middle-earth map that has some basis in the texts whether published or unpublished. That is what we're seeing here. Are these islands "real"? It's up to each reader to decide, based on his or her tolerance for taking Tolkien's unpublished work as seriously as his published stuff.



squire online:
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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Dec 20 2013, 7:39pm

Post #13 of 13 (1349 views)
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Dol Morwen: Not completely indeterminite [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In his Unfinished Tales notes, he does not mention the Morwen islet, which must be further to the west - its location is indeterminate, to put it mildly, since it occurs as an island only in a textual reference, never on any map that either of the Tolkiens drew. One can speculate on what other remnants of Beleriand are poking about above the waves. Interestingly, the 'Akallabeth' mentions the legend that Meneltarma, the central mountain of Numenor, also survived the deluge as a mystic island in mid-ocean. But the text suggests that no mariner ever found it.

The movies' cartographers, like a lot of other fan map-makers, have felt free to add anything to the Middle-earth map that has some basis in the texts whether published or unpublished. That is what we're seeing here. Are these islands "real"? It's up to each reader to decide, based on his or her tolerance for taking Tolkien's unpublished work as seriously as his published stuff.



If we superimpose a map of Beleriand over a map of Middle-earth in the Third Age then we can determine the approximate location of Dol Morwen. The same applies to Dol Fuin.

All three islands are accounted for in the late Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth, which predates Peter Jackson's LotR films by decades. This map may well have been the film crew's reference.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

 
 

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