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squire
Gondolin
Jan 18 2008, 7:16pm
Post #1 of 23
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**A Knife in the Dark** 13. “they watched his strange eager face, dimly lit in the red glow of the wood-fire”
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Strider has just chanted the tale of Tinúviel “in brief” – 72 lines.
Strider sighed and paused before he spoke again. ‘That is a song,’ he said, ‘in the mode that is called “ann-thennath” among the Elves, but is hard to render in our Common Speech, and this is but a rough echo of it. It tells of the meeting of Beren son of Barahir and Lúthien Tinúviel. Beren was a mortal man, but Lúthien was the daughter of Thingol, a King of Elves upon Middle-earth when the world was young; and she was the fairest maiden that has ever been among all the children of this world. As the stars above the mists of the Northern lands was her loveliness, and in her face was a shining light. In those days the Great Enemy, of whom Sauron of Mordor was but a servant, dwelt in Angband in the North, and the Elves of the West coming back to Middle-earth made war upon him to regain the Silmarils which he had stolen; and the fathers of Men aided the Elves. But the Enemy was victorious and Barahir was slain, and Beren escaping through great peril came over the Mountains of Terror into the hidden Kingdom of Thingol in the forest of Neldoreth. There he beheld Lúthien singing and dancing in a glade beside the enchanted river Esgalduin; and he named her Tinúviel, that is Nightingale in the language of old. Many sorrows befell them afterwards, and they were parted long. Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father. Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband, and he died in the arms of Tinúviel. But she chose mortality, and to die from the world, so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas, and after a brief time walking alive once more in the green woods, together they passed, long ago, beyond the confines of this world. So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved. But from her the lineage of the Elf-lords of old descended among Men. There live still those of whom Lúthien was the foremother, and it is said that her line shall never fail. Elrond of Rivendell is of that Kin. For of Beren and Lúthien was born Dior Thingol’s heir; and of him Elwing the White whom Eärendil wedded, he that sailed his ship out of the mists of the world into the seas of heaven with the Silmaril upon his brow. And of Eärendil came the Kings of Númenor, that is Westernesse.’
Wow! What a very long paragraph!
A. Why so long? Why not break this up a bit for readability?
B. Why is “ann-thennath” so hard to render in the Common Speech? Does “this is just a rough echo” excuse the questionable (I think) quality of the verse? Why draw attention to this aspect of the poem?
This is some serious Silmarillion stuff. If I remember, all I got from my early exposure to this was the idea that 1) Morgoth was even worse than Sauron, which I could not imagine. 2) Beren and Luthien stole a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth – as if Frodo and Sam had snuck into Barad-dur and stolen the Ring from Sauron’s hand! What an amazing adventure that must have been!
I do remember that Sam’s speech at Cirith Ungol about being in the same story, and how Beren and Luthien were in a darker time and worse danger, made sense to me because of what I learned here.
I also know that this passage had a very important part in making me desperate to read The Silmarillion when I got old enough to know that it existed – and contributed very much to my immense disappointment when it finally came out in 1977.
B. What was the impact of this tale on you on the first reading or so? Did you take notes?
As Strider was speaking they watched his strange eager face, dimly lit in the red glow of the wood-fire. His eyes shone, and his voice was rich and deep. Above him was a black starry sky. Suddenly a pale light appeared over the crown of Weathertop behind him. The waxing moon was climbing slowly above the hill that overshadowed them, and the stars above the hill-top faded.
C. What has come over Strider? Shouldn’t he be focusing on the nearby Black Riders (“the enemy is here”) – setting himself and the hobbits on watch, preparing defensive weapons or whatever, etc.?
D. Is the appearance of the moon over the hilltop a good thing? Where else does this happen in the story (look ahead, if you want)?
squire online:
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 18 2008, 8:34pm
Post #2 of 23
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This all pretty much went over my head the first few times I read LotR in my early teens. Maybe the long paragraph has something to do with that. I was in my later teens when the Sil came out, so then this story made more sense to me. I did have that same sense of acute disappointment, which I borrowed for my characters in this story fragment in the fan art section.
I always thought the "rough echo" was an excuse. He knew he wasn't writing real elvish poetry.
As to what has come over Strider, I can't really guess. Maybe he's just overcome with lovelornity and it's distracting him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 18 2008, 11:40pm
Post #3 of 23
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Strider standing in the red glow
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of the wood-fire, reciting love poetry about some beautiful Elf and her lover seemed so...shiveringly wonderful.
The Sil, when I finally read it, seemed so...shiveringly boring.
I experienced profound disappointment.
I can't speak about whether the poem is "great poetry". I don't think it's terrible, but I wouldn't say it ranks up near the top of any poetry I might have read (mostly Romantics). Yet I like the poem, I like to hear it read out loud and read it out loud myself. And it still retains a feeling of Faerie and Faerie Folk for me, after many years. I even like the long paragraph itself, frankly. But that's probably because it's a paragraph and not an entire Sil, er, book.
A little bit of that goes a long, long way, Professor Tolkien!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 18 2008, 11:53pm
Post #4 of 23
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At least, I don't think it's love poetry in any traditional sense. Yes, it relates the origin of a tremendous love affair, but it's all about the tease and the chase and the climax - not about the feelings, the attraction, the ethereal ecstasy etc.
Especially with its mutually entwined enchantments (i.e., spells), it even suggests that the lovers came together through no choice of their own!
That one laugh of Arwen's at Aragorn's pretensions, in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, trumps the emotional content (as opposed to aesthetic and mythical content) of this Tale by about ten to one.
I often think that Strider here is meditating on whether the love he feels for Arwen is the same as what Beren and Luthien felt, since his own is so real and yet so stifled, while theirs is so engaged and yet dry as dust.
What if Luthien had never escaped from that tree house, but had waited for Beren to return from his mission against the Dark Lord -- would Beren have made it without her by his side? Will Aragorn see his way through to the Throne and the destruction of the Ring without Arwen's aid and companionship?
squire online:
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 19 2008, 12:00am
Post #5 of 23
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well: yep, nope, yep, nope, maybe?
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OK, I lost track and that was for the sake of writing a subject line!
I perhaps didn't mean exactly "love poetry" as in a poem about love; I meant a poem featuring lovers. And in my young impressionable mind, it seemed so much about Beren's instant love for this beautiful fairy (I still sort of thought of elves as tall fairies). All those moonbeams and stars under the trees...
Yes, I think Aragorn is thinking of himself and Arwen. No, I don't think Beren would have succeeded without Luthien. Yes, I think Aragorn would have succeeded without Arwen...what does Arwen do, anyway?
I mean, I like Arwen. I like that she leaves her kin and becomes mortal for love of Aragorn. I admire that, in a way. I'm glad Aragorn, lonely wanderer that he is, has Arwen to lean on and dream about.
But what does Arwen really contribute to Aragorn's success? A strong heir?
Or were you just musing on what Aragorn must be thinking while he thinks about, recites, then explains the poem to the hobbits? Is he asking himself these questions?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 19 2008, 12:05am
Post #6 of 23
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I didn't follow any of this when I first read the book, other than that it was a love story in the distant past, and that it led to the present. I had no idea of the gravity of Beren or Lúthien, the Iron Crown, Angband, the Silmarils, or the Great Enemy of whom Sauron was but a servant. But here it is, as plain as can be, and at the same time extremely vague.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 19 2008, 12:18am
Post #8 of 23
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why, that's Tolkien in a nutshell!
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here it is, as plain as can be, and at the same time extremely vague
Yeah. A complete story, yet still a mystery!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 19 2008, 9:31am
Post #9 of 23
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Aragorn and Arwen are only half the tale
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of Beren and Luthien.
...while Luthien is arguably the real hero(ine) of the tale of the Silmaril, supporting poor mortal Beren again and again when he is about to be overcome by immortal forces too strong for him
The other part is the tale of Frodo and Sam (with Sam in the role of Luthien as you summarize it above).
In support of this idea, it has often struck me that it's Frodo and Sam who echo this last part of Beren and Luthien's story:
...it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas, and after a brief time walking alive once more in the green woods, together they passed, long ago, beyond the confines of this world.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jan 19 2008, 9:37am)
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 19 2008, 10:10pm
Post #10 of 23
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The tale served Frodo better than anything Strider could do
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It gave him the feeling he could stand up against the Nazgul (in 'Flight to the Ford' he mentions Luthien together with Elbereth), and probably inspired his invocation of Elbereth later this night.
Whether this should be a feather in his cap as a guide - I leave to your own discretion. But it turned out well, and Gandalf (in 'Many Meetings') thinks Aragorn saved them from disaster, and that Frodo was saved by resisting to the last.
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 20 2008, 4:13am
Post #11 of 23
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I read this poem and this explanation, it did really go through my head because it seems that the hobbits and Strider are all in danger at the moment and Tolkien introduces this poem from the First Age. I was more worried about the Black Riders coming and was eager to read more about that.
It is a beautiful poem and very well written but it seemed out of place, in a way...
As i read more of Tolkien's stuff including his biography and his letters, i realized that this was part of a bigger mythology that he was developing.
The paragraph he wrote explaining it did seem a bit much... for a first time reader, i doubt that he/she would read it in depth or write notes.
C. What has come over Strider? Shouldn’t he be focusing on the nearby Black Riders (“the enemy is here”) – setting himself and the hobbits on watch, preparing defensive weapons or whatever, etc.?
Good question. Guess that is one of the reasons for Sam's doubt in the beginning of the next chapter, isn't it?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 4:00am
Post #12 of 23
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Beren and Luthien foreshadowing Frodo and Sam
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Yes, thanks, I had forgotten that.
I guess I'm focusing on Strider here, and his thoughts (as we eventually may realize) of Arwen, because I think that's what Tolkien was focusing on.
At least, there's nothing in the text about Frodo giving Sam's hand a little squeeze when Strider reaches the part about Luthien falling into Beren's arms. But there are a lot of parallels later in the story when things get serious, around Book IV: Frodo trapped in Sauron's dungeons; Frodo apparently dead; Sam singing to the Powers and being rewarded with Frodo alive once more; Sam cradling Frodo's amputated extremity; Frodo and Sam disguised as minions of the Dark Lord to travel through the Dark Land; Sam the weaker (i.e., feminine) partner turning out to be the stronger (helps Frodo accomplish his quest); etc. etc.
But I have never liked the tradition, which Tolkien only hinted at, that Sam sailed West and joined Frodo in Elvenhome. It seems to me to contradict the entire point of the ending of LotR.
squire online:
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 4:23am
Post #13 of 23
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I haven't read it, but in the 2006 collection, Tolkien and Modernity 2, is an article by Patrick Brueckner titled "Tolkien on Love: Concepts of 'Love' in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings" (pp. 1-52). Here is the abstract:
With Beren/Lúthien, Arwen/Aragorn, and Sam/Frodo, Tolkien has created three literary couples that have more in common than scholarship is often willing to acknowledge. Beren/Lúthien are generally read as the paradigmatic pair of lovers in The Silmarillion --validated by Tolkien's own marriage-- and used as a foil for Arwen/Aragorn in The Lord of the Rings. Frodo/Sam, however, are constantly interpreted as exponents of friendship -- another concept of forming couples. Yet when Luhmann's model that conceptualises love as communication, not emotion, is applied to all three couples, one finds that Sam/Frodo may be read as a variant of the Beren/Lúthien model even more readily than Arwen/Aragorn. The essay concludes that, notwithstanding all differences, these three couples must be understood as 'lovers'.
Checking Brueckner's bibliography, I find that "Luhmann" refers to:
Luhmann, Niklas. Love as Passion: The Codification of Intimacy. Translated by Jeremey Gaines and Doris L. Jones. Cambridge: Polity Press, 1986. (Original title: Liebe als Passion. Zur codierung von Intimität, 1982.)
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 14-20 for "A Knife in the Dark".
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 21 2008, 4:56am
Post #14 of 23
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I never thought of Frodo and Sam as a Beren and Luthien pair but they certainly are more analogous in some ways than Aragorn and Arwen are. Thanks for posting it.
Where's Frodo?
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 8:24pm
Post #15 of 23
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It's love-at-first-sight love poetry. It's the lover-stands-outside-the-door-of-the-object-of-his-affections-for-a-year-and-a-day love poetry. Sure it's ridiculous, but it's also romantic as heck. It's about the mythology of romance, not the reality. And those enchantments are not love spells, but the feelings of lovers that you were seeking in the poem. Arwen's laughter is more realistic, to be sure, but when she meets Aragorn in Lothlorien she is the one enchanted.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 8:37pm
Post #16 of 23
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Arwen and Aragorn are lovers but not co-adventurers. Frodo and Sam are co-adventurers but not lovers. The fact that Beren and Luthien are both lovers and co-adventurers does not mean Frodo and Sam must be lovers any more than it means Arwen and Aragorn must be co-adventurers.
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 9:15pm
Post #17 of 23
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I like my love poetry to tell me just a little more of what at least one of the lovers actually felt - whether through imagery, simile, straight-out words, or whatever. This really has none of that. I know what you're saying - about the enchantment, the myth, and all. But I think the writer assumes too much of his reader (or the singer of his listeners). It's like a plot summary of a love affair that everyone already knows about, rather than a poem about one.
For comparison, here's a very similar lyric. Note how romantic, how mythological, it is! And yet the singer does express what he felt, so that we can feel the same thing:
Well, she was just 17
You know what I mean
And the way she looked was way beyond compare
So how could I dance with another (Ooh)
When I saw her standing there
Well she looked at me, and I, I could see
That before too long I'd fall in love with her
She wouldn't dance with another (Whooh)
When I saw her standing there
Well, my heart went "boom"
When I crossed that room
And I held her hand in mine...
Whoah, we danced through the night
And we held each other tight
And before too long I fell in love with her
Now I'll never dance with another (Whooh)
Since I saw her standing there
squire online:
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Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 9:52pm
Post #18 of 23
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Well, this famous love poem says little
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about what the poet felt:
Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd:
But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.
Shakespeare's poem is more about the perfection of his lover's beauty, and not about his own heart going "boom." I would say that Tolkien's poem is about the perfection of Luthien's beauty, and also about Beren's long pursuit, even if Tolkien does not take us inside Beren's head or heart. Indeed this may be an example of Tolkien's affinity for the ancient poems and tales which do not get inside their protagonists' heads or hearts, but let us work out the psychology ourselves based on external clues. Similarly, we do not get inside Aragorn's head or heart as he tells this tale.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 24 2008, 12:59am
Post #19 of 23
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A. Why so long? Why not break this up a bit for readability?
Strider sighed and paused before he spoke again.
‘That is a song,’
he said,
‘in the mode that is called “ann-thennath” among the Elves,
but is hard to render in our Common Speech,
and this is but a rough echo of it.
It tells of the meeting of Beren son of Barahir and Lúthien Tinúviel.
Beren was a mortal man,
but Lúthien was the daughter of Thingol,
a King of Elves upon Middle-earth when the world was young;
and she was the fairest maiden that has ever been among all the children of this world.
As the stars above the mists of the Northern lands was her loveliness,
and in her face was a shining light.
In those days the Great Enemy,
of whom Sauron of Mordor was but a servant,
dwelt in Angband in the North,
and the Elves of the West coming back to Middle-earth made war upon him to regain the Silmarils which he had stolen;
and the fathers of Men aided the Elves.
But the Enemy was victorious and Barahir was slain,
and Beren escaping through great peril came over the Mountains of Terror into the hidden Kingdom of Thingol in the forest of Neldoreth.
There he beheld Lúthien singing and dancing in a glade beside the enchanted river Esgalduin;
and he named her Tinúviel,
that is Nightingale in the language of old.
Many sorrows befell them afterwards,
and they were parted long.
Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron,
and together they passed through great dangers,
and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne,
and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils,
brightest of all jewels,
to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father.
Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband,
and he died in the arms of Tinúviel.
But she chose mortality,
and to die from the world,
so that she might follow him;
and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas,
and after a brief time walking alive once more in the green woods,
together they passed,
long ago,
beyond the confines of this world.
So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world,
and they have lost her whom they most loved.
But from her the lineage of the Elf-lords of old descended among Men.
There live still those of whom Lúthien was the foremother,
and it is said that her line shall never fail.
Elrond of Rivendell is of that Kin.
For of Beren and Lúthien was born Dior Thingol’s heir;
and of him Elwing the White whom Eärendil wedded,
he that sailed his ship out of the mists of the world into the seas of heaven with the Silmaril upon his brow.
And of Eärendil came the Kings of Númenor,
that is Westernesse.’
It's hard to summarize the story of Beren and Luthien in one paragraph! But apparently Tolkien wanted to try.
It's a long speech by Aragorn, and an important one. It foreshadows both Aragorn's destiny and Frodo and Sam's, for Aragorn will wed Arwen, a second Luthien, but Frodo and Sam will duplicate the adventure of Beren and Luthien, entering the Dark Lord's stronghold. It also gives us information about Aragorn's own royal lineage, although a first-time reader would not know that yet. We will learn more about Earendil and Beren and Luthien, as well as Elrond and Aragorn.
But I also find it a beautiful and poetic speech, in some ways more appealing to me than the actual poetry that preceeds it. For one thing it reads like the tip of an iceberg, hiding a tremendous story beneath. For another thing it often falls into the rhythm and meter of free verse. From time to time Tolkien gives us a long paragraph that can be broken up as I have done above, into free verse. However there are two lines in this paragraph that run on a bit long for verse, so I'm not sure what Tolkien intended. Still, much of it has the rhythm of Tolkien's verse-like prose -- especially sentences like:
Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron,
and together they passed through great dangers,
and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne,
and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils,
brightest of all jewels,
to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father.
Perhaps he did not break up the paragraph for the same reason he did not break up the long sentences like that one. The whole paragraph is meant to be read at once, not in one breath, but certainly in one sitting, like a poem or a speech. Tolkien did not want us to pause in the middle and come back. He wanted us to read the whole paragraph at once, to get the full effect.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 24 2008, 1:05am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 24 2008, 12:00pm
Post #20 of 23
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B. Why is “ann-thennath” so hard to render in the Common Speech? Does “this is just a rough echo” excuse the questionable (I think) quality of the verse? Why draw attention to this aspect of the poem?
I do think it is an excuse for the quality of the poem, but even if Tolkien were a better poet he might still have Aragorn making excuses, for Elvish poetry should be beyond beautiful, and into the realm of enchantment.
B. What was the impact of this tale on you on the first reading or so? Did you take notes?
I know I didn't take notes. I don't remember how much of it I comprehended. I know I loved the feeling of depth and history this kind of stuff gave to Tolkien's world, even if I didn't comprehend it all. I have a theory that even the first-time reader who doesn't take notes appreciates this feeling of depth. And I was also disappointed in The Sil, although it grew on me in re-readings as my expectations lowered.
C. What has come over Strider? Shouldn’t he be focusing on the nearby Black Riders (“the enemy is here”) – setting himself and the hobbits on watch, preparing defensive weapons or whatever, etc.?
The Black Riders aren't good at stealth, and Strider knows that. They'll feel them long before the attack. Meanwhile it's worthwhile to tell stories of victory over the Enemy before the Enemy attacks. It's good for morale, and morale is everything when facing the Nazgul. In particular, it may be good for Strider's morale, and it is Strider's morale that saves Frodo.
D. Is the appearance of the moon over the hilltop a good thing? Where else does this happen in the story (look ahead, if you want)?
Of course the appearance of the waxing Moon is a good thing. It's the fruit of the Trees! It also makes it that much harder for the Nazgul to use stealth. Frodo does come to harm, but it could have been much worse, and probably would have been worse if the wind were still from the east, and the clouds covered the Moon. Tolkien was quite meticulous about the phases of the Moon, but at times -- usually bad times -- clouds or fumes cover the waxing Moon.
I'm not sure of all the places the waxing Moon shines brightly, but I do remember wondering what it means that the Moon shone brightly the night Pippin stole the palantir from Gandalf. I think it may be a sign that the Higher Powers wanted Pippin to perform that role, or at least did nothing to stop him, because it saved Gandalf from using the palantir, and warned Aragorn of what it was. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but certainly no harm came from Pippin's actions.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 24 2008, 12:03pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 24 2008, 12:20pm
Post #22 of 23
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Okay, I don't think the Higher Powers wanted Pippin to steal the palantir and use it. But I do think the Higher Powers were present the night he did so, and helped protect him from permanent harm, and even helped turn what could have been a disaster into something fortunate. The Higher Powers do not goad people into doing evil acts, but They do protect innocent people from evil, and turn evil against itself. As Theoden says when they discover that the stone is a palantir, "'oft evil will shall evil mar.'" And as Gandalf says, "at this time we have been strangely fortunate.'"
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 10 2008, 1:04am
Post #23 of 23
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“Look! The king has got a crown again!”
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B. Why draw attention to this aspect of the poem?
If Tolkien the perfectionist realized the verse was bad, why not improve it?
Also, what kinds of poetry would not translate well to English? And what does it mean that Strider would actually have meant that it did not translate well to Westron? What works in Sindarin that fails in other languages?
This is the first appearance of the term “Common Speech”, excepting one occurrence in the Prologue.
B. What was the impact of this tale on you on the first reading or so?
I don’t think I made sense of any of this until at least my second reading, and I read The Silmarillion not very long after LotR, so that on returning to LotR, I was surprised to realized there was so much Silmarillion material in it.
The reference to Sauron as “but a servant” might suggest to readers that his defeat is not impossible, given that master has apparently fallen.
Note that Strider never quite connects Eärendil to Elrond here.
C. What has come over Strider?
He’s thinking not only of Arwen, but of his kingly heritage, which is the last thing he mentions in his summary.
D. Is the appearance of the moon over the hilltop a good thing? Where else does this happen in the story (look ahead, if you want)?
Note that it gives Strider the appearance of wearing a silvery “crown”.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 3-10 for "Lothlórien".
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