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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
You like death, critics?

hobbitrunner
The Shire

Dec 15 2013, 10:47pm

Post #1 of 21 (985 views)
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You like death, critics? Can't Post

Then TABA will surely give it to you!

In all seriousness, many critics' reviews denounce the seeming invincibility of the dwarves. That'll change big time with the Battle of Five Armies. We've got the ones most shown throughout the movies dying... I think that'll really kick the naysayers and definitely provide a transition to the far grittier LOTR.

On another note with the Battle: What will PJ do with Bilbo? Somehow I don't see many enjoying that he's just passed out in the entire battle....
I predict that there'll be a scene where Bilbo's fighting an orc or something, and we're shown him getting hit in the head and then cut out of the scene without "knowing" what has happened.

And on the burning of Laketown:
I just rewatched AUJ last night and don't think Smaug's desolation of Dale had made a proper impression on me before; it is spectacularly done. If this provides any hint as to how Laketown's demise will come in TABA I really can not wait.
*Do note that I am not a very morbid person, I just appreciate moving cinema such as that :-)

Thoughts?


(This post was edited by hobbitrunner on Dec 15 2013, 10:48pm)


Altaira
Superuser


Dec 15 2013, 11:05pm

Post #2 of 21 (569 views)
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I was thinking about this last night (TABA spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

Having seen DoS twice yesterday (yay), I developed a serious soft spot in my heart for Kili (and Fili too - "my place is with my brother" - heartbreaking foreshadowing that). Having both of them *and* Thorin *and* possibly Tauriel all die in the same movie is going to present some rather big challenges for the filmmakers, as it's going to be one major loss after another. It would be akin to having Merry and Pippin die at the battle in front of the Black Gate in ROTK.

It will be interesting to see how they bring the audience out of the somberness and shock (for those who don't know what's going to happen) that all those deaths of major characters will bring on, and finish the movie on a positive note - not necessarily in terms of what happens (assuming it will be a lot like the book), but in how long they take to do it in order to allow people to recover!


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





(This post was edited by Altaira on Dec 15 2013, 11:53pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 15 2013, 11:14pm

Post #3 of 21 (490 views)
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Great title! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the set up for TABA is perfect. Yes, AUJ and DOS had the job of setting the stage, and in my opinion, DOS was excellent, but I see TABA as being spectacular.


hobbitylass
Bree


Dec 15 2013, 11:21pm

Post #4 of 21 (484 views)
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Do you think TABA will also set up the journey of Balin into Moria? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that they'd show him setting off for Moria necessarily, but may have him mention trying to go there again?


Glorfindela
Valinor


Dec 15 2013, 11:33pm

Post #5 of 21 (475 views)
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I think it will have much more of an impact [In reply to] Can't Post

…than having Merry and Pippin die in ROTK (at least for me). The character of Thorin is outstanding and exceptionally well played, and Kili and Fili have also made their mark. I think I will be much more upset at their deaths than I would have been at Merry and Pippin's (I was not a great enthusiast for those two, or the way they were portrayed). I'm hoping Tauriel does not die, but that her plot line is resolved in some other way – perhaps she will go away, or completely reject Legolas due to Kili's death? It really might be too much for audiences to have so many much-loved characters die.

I don't know – for some notes of positivity, perhaps they could show more development to do with Thranduil and Beorn after the battle, since they are characters that people really seem to like. (Bilbo and the Dwarves will be too sad, I feel.) Beorn did manage to continue his line after the events in the Hobbit, so there could be some positivity in, say, Gandalf foreseeing that.


In Reply To
Having seen DoS twice yesterday (yay), I developed a serious soft spot in my heart for Kili (and Fili too - "my place it with my brother" - heartbreaking foreshadowing that). Having both of them *and* Thorin *and* possibly Tauriel all die in the same movie is going to present some rather big challenges for the filmmakers, as it's going to be one major loss after another. It would be akin to having Merry and Pippin die at the battle in front of the Black Gate in ROTK.

It will be interesting to see how they bring the audience out of the somberness and shock (for those who don't know what's going to happen) that all those deaths of major characters will bring on, and finish the movie on a positive note - not necessarily in terms of what happens (assuming it will be a lot like the book), but in how long they take to do it in order to allow people to recover!



FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien


Dec 15 2013, 11:34pm

Post #6 of 21 (451 views)
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I bet... [In reply to] Can't Post

In a post BOFA scene, perhaps when Bilbo or Gandalf are saying their farewells to the surviving dwarves, that they will have Balin mention attempting to retake or expore Moria. That is too big of a tie-in to LOTR for PJ to pass up.

 photo cbccab4e-f61e-4be5-aaa1-20e302430c7c.jpg


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Dec 15 2013, 11:46pm

Post #7 of 21 (456 views)
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How those deaths will be felt -- [In reply to] Can't Post

I sat there stunned when key characters were killed in the battle scene in Twilight Breaking Dawn 2. That it turned out to be a vision of a *possible* future didn't erase that, and yes it took a bit to recover. (By the way I read none of the books)

Anyway, yes, it's going to be trauma inducing I think. I've developed a soft spot for Kili (and Tauriel) as well.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 15 2013, 11:52pm)


hobbitrunner
The Shire

Dec 15 2013, 11:48pm

Post #8 of 21 (434 views)
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Epilogue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Or, really, multiple conclusions.

Namely, there has to be something showing that Sauron is not in fact as gone as the White Council thinks after their assault on Dol Goldur. Perhaps after Bilbo is accompanied back by Gandalf (I forget how far exactly), he inquires as to how Gandalf's business went "elsewhere". Gandalf could reply with something along the lines of "We have put off a great shadow; Middle Earth shall still know peace for quite some time" providing the conclusion that allows the generally happy feel of the beginning of FOTR. But then, as Gandalf walks away, we see a scene similar to the one at the end of AUJ:
zooming/flying into Mordor, seeing Barad-dûr lying cold.. and then the Eye of Sauron lights up at the top.

Maybe the above is too much like the end of AUJ.. but I think that could work perfectly for a LOTR transition.

EDIT:
Or even in a kind of bookend to the prologue of AUJ: Old Bilbo talks of peace. Cue above mentioned sequence.


(This post was edited by hobbitrunner on Dec 15 2013, 11:51pm)


sarahb1863
Rivendell


Dec 16 2013, 12:37am

Post #9 of 21 (399 views)
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Having seen DoS [In reply to] Can't Post

...I have this horrible fear that PJ is setting it up so that Kili and Tauriel die in each other's arms at the BoFA. Bleh. :-P


Yva
Lorien


Dec 16 2013, 12:50am

Post #10 of 21 (381 views)
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The title confused me ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

But yes, what a sad topic...
Knowing that PJ&Co do battles, emotions and character moments so amazingly well, it will be intense.

And worse. Because I really took to Kili thanks to the Tauriel subplot and I also had several sudden moments of realization that Fili was awesome.

As for Bilbo - I doubt he will be unconscious. I feel we need to see at least some of the tragic events through his eyes. But I don't really want to see him fight too much, either. I'm sure he will get involved in one way or another, there will possibly be several "microstories" happening on the battlefield.

And the critics? I think you're absolutely right - although they wil probably be the last thing I will care about about when TABA comes...


Plurmo
Rohan

Dec 16 2013, 12:52am

Post #11 of 21 (387 views)
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They plan to kill her? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess she is the only elf in the whole Saga that can explain to the common viewer the true meaning of an elf sailing to the West and leaving Middle-earth out of disillusionment. Who could be more apt to do that than a brave warrior elf with a heart of adamant. She wouldn't be leaving to seek refuge from war, nor would she be a grear elf ruler leaving Middle-earth after his great works are ended.

Tauriel could really go the long way to the Grey Havens and beyond, giving greater meaning to (movie) Arwen's interrupted journey to the harbours and, perhapsest of the perhapses, giving to the more purist viewer a reason to forgive her inclusion in the story.


Fili
Lorien


Dec 16 2013, 1:35am

Post #12 of 21 (360 views)
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That Makes Me Wonder... [In reply to] Can't Post

What would you wager that one of these characters gets burned by Smaug at the beginning of TABA?

My odds on favorite for that is...me. I die to save my brother, and that sets up a lot of emotional roller coasters with Kili and his relationships with Tauriel and Thorin.

“So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.”

(This post was edited by Fili on Dec 16 2013, 1:36am)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Dec 16 2013, 1:40am

Post #13 of 21 (350 views)
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Book/TABA spoilers [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect they will include a version of Thorin's burial in the movie. It is one of the things I really like in the book, where Thranduil returns Orcrist to Thorin, and Bard returns the Arkenstone. I think doing that (as part perhaps of a longer scene also acknowledging Fili and Kili's deaths) can help the audience deal with the deaths.


Yva
Lorien


Dec 16 2013, 1:56am

Post #14 of 21 (343 views)
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That would be extremely unfair [In reply to] Can't Post

Because as I mentioned elsewhere, thanks to DOS I literally found out that there was a Fili in the movies.

You have a point, though, because I do wonder how that will be handled. In an adrenaline moment, Fili and Kili manage to dodge Smaug's deadly attack, only to die later anyway? Just as bad Unsure


Fili
Lorien


Dec 16 2013, 2:01am

Post #15 of 21 (340 views)
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Prepare Yourself [In reply to] Can't Post

Only the awesome die young, and 5 minutes into the movie.

And I am the most awesome dwarf in the movie. I'm younger and sweeter than Thorin, and my facial hair alone overshadows my brother.

Oh and Dwalin? Scared of pussy cats. Wink

“So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.”


Finrod
Rohan


Dec 16 2013, 2:28am

Post #16 of 21 (317 views)
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Don’t forget Radagast when computing the body count [In reply to] Can't Post

We know that by the time all is said and done, Gandalf will inherit Radagast’s staff.

How? Why? And whither the Brown Wizard then?

This probably means our favorite weremoth is not long for these Hither Shores.

We know that Jackson just loves killing off main characters in his movies. He thinks it makes a much stronger movie, because it hurts you.

So we might as well expect a Game of Thrones bloodbath in the final film: if you don’t see or at least hear of them in the Fellowship, they’re probably pathos-fodder.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien


Dec 16 2013, 2:37am

Post #17 of 21 (300 views)
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do we really know that? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We know that by the time all is said and done, Gandalf will inherit Radagast’s staff.

How? Why? And whither the Brown Wizard then?

This probably means our favorite weremoth is not long for these Hither Shores.

We know that Jackson just loves killing off main characters in his movies. He thinks it makes a much stronger movie, because it hurts you.

So we might as well expect a Game of Thrones bloodbath in the final film: if you don’t see or at least hear of them in the Fellowship, they’re probably pathos-fodder.


Looking at pictures, Radagast's staff and Gandalf's FOTR staff aren't identical.

 photo cbccab4e-f61e-4be5-aaa1-20e302430c7c.jpg


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Dec 16 2013, 3:04am

Post #18 of 21 (303 views)
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There is the suggestion in the AUJ DVD extras.... [In reply to] Can't Post

....of Radagast merging with nature and becoming a spirit of the forest. I hope that's what ends up happening in the third film.


The Red Avenger
Rivendell

Dec 16 2013, 5:20pm

Post #19 of 21 (235 views)
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Here's my thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive been wondering about this, I would like to see a few ties to LOTR. One thing I would like to see is Gollum emerge from the mountains seeking his Precious. There has to be some mention of Balin going to Moria to give the scene in his tomb more resonance in future. I know Adam Brown (Ori) tweeted he had a cameo in LOTR, but he's a bit thinner indicating the dwarf skeleton holding the book of Mazarbul is him. (ok he was joking but he's probably right).


What I would do if I was screenwriter would be have Old Bilbo bookending the film and reminiscing on the other surviving dwarves. When he gets to Balin he explains he went to retake Moria and then we show a shot of Balin, Oin, and Ori in the chanmber with Ori writing in the book, the same book we see in Fellowship. It would bring a nice continuity to it and it wouldn't spoil what happened later if you watch the films chronologically.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Dec 17 2013, 2:02am

Post #20 of 21 (221 views)
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Ha! I must agree with you. [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili is by far the most awesome Dwarf, even if we speak only of facial hair. Wink Laugh However, I'm in no hurry to see the awesome die young. I'd rather see the awesome live and continue being awesome for many more years to come... Unsure

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Yva
Lorien


Dec 17 2013, 8:53am

Post #21 of 21 (207 views)
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Convincing argumentation :) [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be evil on many levels.

It would catch fans of the book completely off guard, not just the non-book audience, (which seems fair in its odd way), while not deviating from the canon that very much.

I don't think it will happen but there's some (evil) logic to it.

 
 

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