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squire
Gondolin
Jan 18 2008, 6:06pm
Post #1 of 24
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**A Knife in the Dark** 12. “One moment stood she, and a spell / His voice laid on her: Beren came, / And doom fell on Tinúviel”
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As the Black Riders are surely creeping nearer and nearer in the dark outside their campsite, Strider has decided to buck up the hobbits’ failing nerves by telling them “the tale of Tinúviel”.
I should mention that during the last Reading Room discussion of LotR, in 2005, I explored fairly deeply this poem’s origins, its contexts within the Tinúviel legendarium and the History of Middle-earth narrative, and its placement here in the story. Here is the link.
http://archives.theonering.net/rumour_mill/rpg/viewer/readingroom/4277139C00020EB6.html
Today I will try not to repeat all that. Instead I want to read the poem closely, which I suspect a lot of readers don’t bother to do very often.
Stanza and line numbers are given for easy reference during discussion. Yes, there’s lots of ditsy little questions. Answer whichever ones you like.
The leaves were long, the grass was green, [stanza I]
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there 5
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of stars was in her hair,
And in her raiment glimmering.
A. What time of year is it?
B. What is a hemlock-umbel?
C. If the starlight was seen shimmering in the shadows in the glade, what light was casting the shadows?
D. What is the effect of starting lines with “And” throughout this poem? For instance, does it make those last two lines a little confusing to parse?
There Beren came from mountains cold, II
And lost he wandered under leaves, 10
And where the Elven-river rolled
He walked alone and sorrowing.
He peered between the hemlock-leaves
And saw in wonder flowers of gold
Upon her mantle and her sleeves, 15
And her hair like shadow following.
E. Does it seem that Beren first sees Tinúviel, rather than hearing that pipe music?
F. What color is gold when seen by starlight?
Enchantment healed his weary feet III
That over hills were doomed to roam;
And forth he hastened, strong and fleet,
And grasped at moonbeams glistening. 20
Through woven woods in Elvenhome
She lightly fled on dancing feet,
And left him lonely still to roam
In the silent forest listening.
G. What does it mean that Beren “grasped at moonbeams”?
H. Where is Elvenhome? (Remember your answer when we get to Bilbo’s song in Rivendell)
I. How well does the poet combine his rhyme scheme, meter, and strong alliteration while keeping clear the syntax and meaning of the poem? In other words, do the poetics help or hinder the poem?
He heard there oft the flying sound IV, 25
Of feet as light as linden-leaves,
Or music welling underground,
In hidden hollows quavering.
Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves,
And one by one with sighing sound 30
Whispering fell the beechen leaves
In the wintry woodland wavering.
J. In the silent forest listening, when Beren can actually hear the light sound of flying feet, does that mean the music is not quavering underground at just those moments?
K. Is she underground too, at those moments? Does music (or hollows) that “quaver” sound particularly enchanting?
L. Now what season is it?
He sought her ever, wandering far V
Where leaves of years were thickly strewn,
By light of moon and ray of star 35
In frosty heavens shivering.
Her mantle glinted in the moon,
As on a hill-top high and far
She danced, and at her feet was strewn
A mist of silver quivering. 40
M. Does Beren see her up on that hill-top – or just us?
N. How can a mist be strewn?
When winter passed, she came again, VI
And her song released the sudden spring,
Like rising lark, and falling rain,
And melting water bubbling.
He saw the elven-flowers spring 45
About her feet, and healed again
He longed by her to dance and sing
Upon the grass untroubling.
O. Yes, it’s very obvious now: but what season is it?
P. How has Beren been “healed again”? When was the first time? What went wrong?
Q. What does Beren want: to touch/hold/meet her – or just to dance and sing with her?
Again she fled, but swift he came. VII
Tinúviel! Tinúviel! 50
He called her by her elvish name;
And there she halted listening.
One moment stood she, and a spell
His voice laid on her: Beren came,
And doom fell on Tinúviel 55
That in his arms lay glistening.
R. First Beren was “enchanted”. Now it is Tinúviel who comes under the spell of his voice. What has changed in the dynamic between these two? Why this resolution – why now?
S. We know her garment “glimmers” (Stanza I). Is that what is “glistening” now as she lies in his arms? Or is it her actual body? (Or alternately, is he carrying a “glistening doom” in his arms and he kind of throws it or something so that it “falls” onto her?)
As Beren looked into her eyes VIII
Within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies
He saw there mirrored shimmering. 60
Tinúviel the elven-fair,
Immortal maiden elven-wise,
About him cast her shadowy hair
And arms like silver glimmering.
T. “elven-fair” and “elven-fair” are repeated strongly here. Does this convey to us that Beren is not “elven”?
U. What does the “shadowiness” of her hair do? What does it represent (see lines 3-4, 16, 58, 63)?
V. Tinúviel wears golden flowers on her dress and sleeves (line 15), yet her arms are “like silver” (line 64), as was the mist during the winter (line 40). One sound fashion rule is don’t mix gold and silver, no?
Long was the way that fate them bore, IX, 65
O’er stony mountains cold and grey,
Through halls of iron and darkling door,
And woods of nightshade morrowless.
The Sundering Seas between them lay,
And yet at last they met once more, 70
And long ago they passed away
In the forest singing sorrowless.
W. Does the final stanza finish the poem in a satisfactory way?
X. What is this poem about? Why does Strider choose to sing it under the circumstances? What should the hobbits ‘get’ from it?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 18 2008, 8:32pm
Post #2 of 24
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V. Tinúviel wears golden flowers on her dress and sleeves (line 15), yet her arms are “like silver” (line 64), as was the mist during the winter (line 40). One sound fashion rule is don’t mix gold and silver, no?
But they mixed quite beautifully in the light of the Two Trees. Also, Galadriel's hair echoes this image: "It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses" (Unfinished Tales). As well, Nenya, the Ring that she bore: "Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand" (LotR).
For Tolkien, the combination seems to have been a winning one.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 18 2008, 8:36pm
Post #3 of 24
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It's a flower shaped like an umbrella.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 19 2008, 12:01am
Post #5 of 24
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Doriath had a Mediterranean climate!
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I'm the resident botanist, so here goes:
A. What time of year is it?
Spring or early summer; hemlock (Conium)is a Mediterranean herb that flowers in the spring and dies back in response to summer drought characteristic of Mediterranean climate.
Hot dry summers and mild wet winters (no snow!) 
B. What is a hemlock-umbel?
As said, an umbel is an umbrella-shaped head of flowers. The mention of an umbel identifies this hemlock as poison hemlock, Conium, not the tree hemlock, Tsuga.
E. Does it seem that Beren first sees Tinúviel, rather than hearing that pipe music?
It doesn't say that, although he clearly sees her before he pays the music a great deal of mind.
F. What color is gold when seen by starlight?
Gray, to a human's eyes, but Beren isn't like lesser Men, so he might be able to see color in the dark. Starlight is very blue, so I would guess that he's seeing green, unless he's seeing ultraviolet, which flowers also shine in (and stars also).
G. What does it mean that Beren “grasped at moonbeams”?
He chased her but couldn't catch her. It's a common poetic device to encounter the elusive fey in the woods! However, I imagine that the two saw each-other, made playful communication by eyes, and then had a chase. And, as it turned out, Lúthien was one fast runner (I'm sure that Beren wasn't slow)!
H. Where is Elvenhome? (Remember your answer when we get to Bilbo’s song in Rivendell)
The real Elven kingdom!
I. How well does the poet combine his rhyme scheme, meter, and strong alliteration while keeping clear the syntax and meaning of the poem? In other words, do the poetics help or hinder the poem?
Honestly, they make the poem a little hard to swallow from the combination of syntax and doggeral. Let's just say that Bilbo (or whomever's) translation from the original Sindarin failed to capture the beauty of the lay in its original form.
J. In the silent forest listening, when Beren can actually hear the light sound of flying feet, does that mean the music is not quavering underground at just those moments?
Not sure how to envision this: sometimes there was music, and sometimes not, is what I would think.
K. Is she underground too, at those moments? Does music (or hollows) that “quaver” sound particularly enchanting?
I'm sure that Lúthien did not spend all of her time dancing and flirting. She had to study her arts, and we know from her later exploits that she had some adventuring skill, so might not always have even been in Doriath.
L. Now what season is it?
It tells us: winter. However, it's a Mediterranean winter, so we should probably be thinking November-December.
M. Does Beren see her up on that hill-top – or just us?
I'm sure he does. He may be up there with her.
N. How can a mist be strewn?
Imagine it.
O. Yes, it’s very obvious now: but what season is it?
Winter - growing season in a Mediterranean climate begins in December. I'm guessing January or February.
P. How has Beren been “healed again”? When was the first time? What went wrong?
He could have had more adventures (possibly with Lúthien) in the meantime, but more likely this means healed of his weariness. I'm sure that Beren did more than chase Lúthien through this time: he had to eat, didn't he? And also, don't you think that the two of them spent some time to get to know each-other before falling in love? This is all poetry, after all.
Q. What does Beren want: to touch/hold/meet her – or just to dance and sing with her?
Again, we are talking poetically here. The wooing takes place over *gasp* a year!
R. First Beren was “enchanted”. Now it is Tinúviel who comes under the spell of his voice. What has changed in the dynamic between these two? Why this resolution – why now?
She taught him the spell and he nailed her with it! 
I don't think that the Edain were without magic. Besides, they've had plenty of time to fall in love.
S. We know her garment “glimmers” (Stanza I). Is that what is “glistening” now as she lies in his arms? Or is it her actual body? (Or alternately, is he carrying a “glistening doom” in his arms and he kind of throws it or something so that it “falls” onto her?)
Well... 
We've discussed this before. I generally like the idea that Elves can marry whenever they will, and whomever they will, and that this is generally how they do it. I also don't see the point of Elves getting engaged when they don't need any kind of ceremony except just a promise - when they are ready to decide on their choices, they just marry. So yes, I would say that it's her body - why not?
T. “elven-fair” and “elven-fair” are repeated strongly here. Does this convey to us that Beren is not “elven”?
Arguably, but not necessarily - we don't know the author (or translator) of the poem, do we? In any event Aragorn is reciting it in Westron, which is not how the Elves would sing it. This means that the intended audience of the lay is non-Elves, so emphasizing Lúthien's Elven beauty might be of use here.
U. What does the “shadowiness” of her hair do? What does it represent (see lines 3-4, 16, 58, 63)?
Enchantment
V. Tinúviel wears golden flowers on her dress and sleeves (line 15), yet her arms are “like silver” (line 64), as was the mist during the winter (line 40). One sound fashion rule is don’t mix gold and silver, no?
I'm sure that her skin is not silver - I'm sure that she has melanin pigmentation. The silver is probably an effect of the starlight or moonlight.
W. Does the final stanza finish the poem in a satisfactory way?
It does, to somebody reading LotR, which we are. It is not satisfactory for the Silmarillion, or if you think about what the final stanza is referring to.
X. What is this poem about? Why does Strider choose to sing it under the circumstances? What should the hobbits ‘get’ from it?
Love and romance - it's something that has been on Strider's mind lately, for multiple reasons. More importantly, it's a reminder that there is good in Middle Earth, and that good is more than just fighting against evil. The love of Lúthien and Beren are a large part of what give them their power, and I'm sure that Frodo would have had a much harder time resisting the Nine than he did as-is.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Jan 19 2008, 11:03am
Post #6 of 24
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And very dangerous, because it's deceptive: it resembles Queen Anne's Lace (wild carrot) and some people have confused the two. (Euell Gibbons, bless his heart, described wild carrot in his Stalking the Wild Asparagus but gave no clues to how to distinguish it from poison hemlock. The latter has reddish spots on the stem and a smell that has been described as "mousy".)
I wonder if Tolkien didn't choose this flower on purpose, specifically because it's so poisonous, as a symbolic foreshadowing of Lúthien's fate?
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 19 2008, 2:43pm
Post #7 of 24
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have a note about Tolkien's use of the word "hemlock" for a flower he is describing:
"By hemlocks Tolkien may be referring to Conium maculatum, which Roger Phillips in Wild Flowers of Britain (1977) describes as common in England and Wales, growing to a height of two metres, mainly in damp places but also in disturbed ground. But Tolkien also used hemlocks in a wider sense. Christopher Tolkien has said: 'My father used to refer to all the big white umbellifers as "hemlocks", although he was well aware that a lot of them were really cow parsley or chervil' (private correspondence). The Oxford English Dictionary notes that hemlock is 'also in rural use applied to the large Umbelliferae generally".
I also find it interesting that the next stanza has Beren wandering "under leaves" and peering "between the hemlock leaves". So either Tolkien used hemlock flowers in the first stanza and hemlock trees in the second, or Beren is shorter than the umbellifers.
Could Tolkien be talking about hemlock trees in the first stanza? Trees with an umbrella-like canopy? If the flowers can grow to 2 meters, that's pretty tall. But it's what? In American English that's like 6 feet? (Oh, I may be wrong, please correct me and laugh if you must at my inability to convert my inch and feet-using brain). That would make Beren less than 6 feet tall?
Is Beren walking under the hemlock flowers? Tolkien, who never used a word carelessly, is purposely using hemlock for flower in stanza one and for tree in stanza two?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 19 2008, 6:59pm
Post #8 of 24
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Yes, 2 metres is just over 2 yards (6 feet)!
But I suspect that in those far ancient days, just as Oliphaunts were a larger variation of elephants, these flowers were variants of the ones seen nowadays, and most likely grew far taller; in which case Beren could indeed walk under them.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 19 2008, 7:05pm
Post #9 of 24
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Love story - or love the story?
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Honestly, they make the poem a little hard to swallow from the combination of syntax and doggeral. Let's just say that Bilbo (or whomever's) translation from the original Sindarin failed to capture the beauty of the lay in its original form. Which is why we have Strider apologizing for this translation of the poem. I actually enjoy the "differentness" of the metre!
Yes, there's nothing like a good romance story to put Nazgûl out of the Hobbits' minds! And Strider was careful to leave out any verses which dealt with the struggle of these two against You-Know-Who.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 19 2008, 7:25pm
Post #10 of 24
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The subject of November comments, with responses citing scientific nomenclature and the OED.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 14-20 for "A Knife in the Dark".
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 19 2008, 8:46pm
Post #11 of 24
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Thanks. Remember: I want that database of yours in your will. Get a lawyer, I'll pay. Maybe Cuious does wills?
Anyway.
So, is Beren walking under the leaves of hemlock trees or hemlock flowering-plants two meters high?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 19 2008, 8:53pm
Post #12 of 24
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I doubt that Tolkien was thinking of trees
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First and foremost, Tsuga does not grow in England, but Conium does. Tolkien would have had to travel to the United States or Asia to see a hemlock forest, although he might have seen a tree or two in an herbarium somewhere. Second, an umbrel is a technical term for the shape of a flower. Hemlock trees are closely related to firs and spruces; they are pointy trees, not really umbrella-like. Last, Tolkien seemed more fond of broadleaf angiosperms like beeches or elms than needly conifers like pines or hemlocks.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 19 2008, 9:04pm
Post #13 of 24
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Thanks. Have I mentioned how helpful it is to have a scientist available? 
So...Beren was peering through the leaves of the flowering-plants which surrounded the glade where Luthien was dancing ("He peered between the hemlock-leaves")? And the first "leaves" in that stanza ("lost he wandered under leaves") probably doesn't refer to the flowering plant but to some trees he is wandering "under" (not hemlock trees)?
Because I have a hard time envisioning mighty Beren wandering lost "under leaves" of gigantically tall Queen Anne's Lace!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 19 2008, 10:50pm
Post #14 of 24
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which would still be taller than most people, even if we don't assume any mythic increase in the size of the plants - and anyway if the plants were taller back then, wouldn't Men such as Beren be taller too?
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jan 20 2008, 12:35am
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And here's NEB's very informative post about that!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 20 2008, 7:42am
Post #16 of 24
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Nice that you could turn the tables for once, and find one of NEB's posts instead of vice-versa!
Going back to the original discussion on hemlock itself, I found this article on hemlock, where it's suggested that (besides sometimes growing up to 10 feet tall) the plant is traditionally associated with witches. Considering the "bewitchment" that seeing Luthien causes in Beren, I wonder if this had any influence on Tolkien's choice of vegetation here?
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jan 20 2008, 7:43am)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jan 20 2008, 8:25pm
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(I must admit, on these new Boards it's easy enough to find posts!)
That's interesting about hemlock: I knew it was poisonous, but did not know that background on it - I wonder how many people took ill, or died, thinking they were using one of the non-lethal plants!
Tolkien's hemlock came from his romantic past. From Letter #340 to Christopher, 11 July 1972, reminiscing about Edith: "I never called Edith Lúthien - but she was the source of the story that in time became the chief part of the Silmarillion. It was first conceived in a small woodland glade filled with hemlocks at Roos in Yorkshire (where I was for a brief time in command of an outpost of the Humber Garrison in 1917, and she was able to live with me for a while). In those days her hair was raven, her skin was clear, her eyes brighter than you have seen them, and she could sing - and dance. But the story has gone crooked, & I am left, and I cannot plead before the inexorable Mandos."
Edith would dance in the hemlock-glades. And thus the gem of the Story was crafted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jan 20 2008, 8:29pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 8:11pm
Post #18 of 24
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A. What time of year is it?
Spring or summer.
B. What is a hemlock-umbel?
A tall (man-high) flowering plant with white flowers in formations that look vaguely like umbrellas.
C. If the starlight was seen shimmering in the shadows in the glade, what light was casting the shadows?
I thought the shadow in which the stars glimmered was in the sky, not under the plants.
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
The light came from the stars shimmering in the shadow of the night sky.
D. What is the effect of starting lines with “And” throughout this poem? For instance, does it make those last two lines a little confusing to parse?
Tolkien does it to make the meter work, but it has the effect of a run-on sentence. I agree that it makes those last two lines a little confusing to parse.
E. Does it seem that Beren first sees Tinúviel, rather than hearing that pipe music?
Yes. Tolkien wants to downplay the pipe music, and the piper, who plays a greater role in earlier versions of the tale.
F. What color is gold when seen by starlight?
I would imagine gold seems less gold by starlight, even if it is bright starlight. Good point.
G. What does it mean that Beren “grasped at moonbeams”?
Luthien proved elusive.
H. Where is Elvenhome? (Remember your answer when we get to Bilbo’s song in Rivendell)
The true Elvenhome is in the West. But Doriath is also an Elvenhome, especially when Melian and Thingol reign.
I. How well does the poet combine his rhyme scheme, meter, and strong alliteration while keeping clear the syntax and meaning of the poem? In other words, do the poetics help or hinder the poem?
For me, the poetics hinder the poem. I love the imagery, but I'm sure the poem is more beautiful in the original Elvish.
J. In the silent forest listening, when Beren can actually hear the light sound of flying feet, does that mean the music is not quavering underground at just those moments?
I imagine so.
K. Is she underground too, at those moments? Does music (or hollows) that “quaver” sound particularly enchanting?
She is either underground or below ground level in "hidden hollows." I imagine this music would sound enchanting regardless. The point is that she remains hidden from him.
L. Now what season is it?
Winter.
M. Does Beren see her up on that hill-top – or just us?
The hill-top is "high and far." I infer that we see her through Beren's eyes, and she is far from him when he sees her.
N. How can a mist be strewn?
It's poetic license, okay?
O. Yes, it’s very obvious now: but what season is it?
Spring ("winter passed").
P. How has Beren been “healed again”? When was the first time? What went wrong?
It isn't that he was healed from wounds before, it's that he was healthy before, and now is healed again, i.e. healthy again.
Q. What does Beren want: to touch/hold/meet her – or just to dance and sing with her?
Well, most courtships start slowly. Dancing is often part of courtship.
R. First Beren was “enchanted”. Now it is Tinúviel who comes under the spell of his voice. What has changed in the dynamic between these two? Why this resolution – why now?
Why did she continue to dance outside at night when she knew he was following her? The whole poem is an elaborate courtship, and eventually (after several months of chasing) she falls for him, and lets him catch her.
S. We know her garment “glimmers” (Stanza I). Is that what is “glistening” now as she lies in his arms? Or is it her actual body? (Or alternately, is he carrying a “glistening doom” in his arms and he kind of throws it or something so that it “falls” onto her?)
I don't think Tolkien wanted us to imagine a nude Luthien, so I think he had in mind her glimmering garments. Then again, he did like to play with ambiguity.
T. “elven-fair” and “elven-[wise]” are repeated strongly here. Does this convey to us that Beren is not “elven”?
I suppose. It's unclear in this poem, but becomes clearer later, when we hear more about Beren, and eventually hear about the parallels with Aragorn.
U. What does the “shadowiness” of her hair do? What does it represent (see lines 3-4, 16, 58, 63)?
Not all shadow is evil. Arwen will also be associated with shadow, or with stars shining in shadow, as will Aragorn.
V. Tinúviel wears golden flowers on her dress and sleeves (line 15), yet her arms are “like silver” (line 64), as was the mist during the winter (line 40). One sound fashion rule is don’t mix gold and silver, no?
Gold and silver can mix. Often jewelry is made of both gold and silver. But it is a risky fashion statement, and must be done with care. It's the kind of rule the fashion artist can break, and the ordinary person should probably follow.
However Luthien does not wear golden flowers in the winter mist or with bare silver arms. You are describing three different scenes, in three different seasons. Still, I agree that the golden flowers seem a little out of place in this poem, which takes place mostly at night in the starlight, and emphasizes images of black, white, and silver.
W. Does the final stanza finish the poem in a satisfactory way?
I like the final stanza, and the hint that this was just the beginning of a long tale, which Strider confirms.
X. What is this poem about? Why does Strider choose to sing it under the circumstances? What should the hobbits ‘get’ from it?
The poem is about Beren and Luthien's courtship and romance. Strider may have courtship on his mind. It also has a happy ending, at least where Strider ends it, and even where he hints that the tale will really end, "In the forest singing sorrowless." The hobbits may get from it that not all shadow is evil, or may just use it as a distraction from the danger at hand. Eventually the tale of Beren and Luthien will be highly relevant to Frodo and Sam, who go on a similar mission into the realm of the Dark Lord. And of course it will prove equally relevant to Aragorn and Arwen.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 22 2008, 6:12pm
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that Tolkien mixes against the common wisdom. I think he's also mixing two styles of poetic convention. At times, it's as if Luthien is a nymph in the Classical (Latin/Greek) style, seen as an unattainable vision, with accomanying hints of music or footsteps that may or may not be in the imagination of the Mortal observer. The line "And her song released the sudden spring" especially makes her sound like a personification of Nature in the Classical style - and the description of her dancing with mist "strewn" at her feet has this same effect of suggesting personification - i.e. that some other nature spirit has deliberately cast a mist about her.
But then we have a very different trope - the idea of love as a spell, or doom, cast irresistibly on the lover. That's a Celtic device, it seems to me - we see it in Romantic poems such as The Lady of Shalott and La Belle Dame Sans Merci that are Celtic in inspiration, as well as in original Celtic legends like Tristan and Isolde.
I'm not sure the combination of these two styles works particularly well. The protagonists in the Romantic/Celtic poems are quite vividly human, and portrayed with strong feelings that we can share. The Classical style is more refined, perhaps, but doesn't focus on the emotions of the characters so much as on a picturesque effect of Nature personified. Tolkien's poem is very refined in style too, but it relies for its final impact on the idea of the spell falling on the lovers - Beren at the start and Luthien at the end. But we don't get that strong identification with the characters that Celtic poetry tends to provide. This does seem to fit, as Curious mentions in another post, with Tolkien's approach of showing us most characters from the outside, and allowing us to build up our own picture of what they are really like and are really feeling. But a poem that intends for us to feel the great weight of doom in this fateful match between an Elf and a Man needs to allow us to feel with the characters, I think.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 22 2008, 10:25pm
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if this is a holdover from the original story in BolT, where Beren is a "gnome", and maybe not as tall as he ended up in the final version. I think in his very early days Tolkien had not yet developed his aversion to 'diminuative' elves.
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 22 2008, 10:38pm
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What a great line of thought! Thanks for that.
It reminds me of the more recent scholarship I've seen on Tolkien's use of Classical (Mediterranean) figures and styles - following all the early critical work that investigated his deep use of Northern European sources. What I don't remember so much of is your suggestion, that sometimes he may have gotten caught in between, with inartistic results.
This poem was originally written in the late 1910s as "Light as Leaf on Linden Tree" - no one seems to know if it was ever supposed to be longer than this. Tolkien recycled it (with some rewriting) when he gave it to Strider for this scene in LotR. There are, of course, longer and fuller versions of this part of the Tale of Tinuviel - I charted them here: http://users.bestweb.net/.../BerenAndLuthien.htm
One thing I notice, thanks to your comments, is that as the story evolves, Luthien becomes less a young girl and more of a nature spirit. For instance, in the Lost Tales (first version, in prose) there is no mention of spring happening because of her singing; and the first "Light as Leaf" version doesn't have that either. The bubbling forth of the frozen brook was invented for the long epic-style Lay of Leithian, and rewritten into that part of "Light as Leaf" for Strider's version.
Also, in the Lost Tale version, Beren's feelings and Luthien's feelings are expressed to some degree. Are these moments below what you mean by a kind of Celtic humanity?
This was a great sorrow to Beren, who would not leave those places, hoping to see that fair elfin maiden dance yet again, and he wandered in the wood growing wild and lonely for many a day and searching for Tinuviel.
and
for long Tinuviel knew of his coming and feigned otherwise, and for long her fear had departed by reason of the wistful hunger of his face lit by the moonlight; and she saw that he was kind and in love with her beautiful dancing...and although he knew it not Tinuviel often hearkened from within the shadows of the cavernous doors and laughed softly or smiled.
So Tolkien was developing the classic "Teasing Mysterious Nymph" motif through several iterations, in contrast to the idea of irresistible or fatal enchantment which was there from the first. On the other hand, another thing that was changing was that Beren becomes less attracted to her Dancing, and more attracted to her Singing, as the story gets retold. This must reflect how Edith's dancing, the original inspiration for the scene, was being replaced by the idea of Enchantment (being ensnared by song) as Tolkien mythologized the story for his epic poem.
I'm always glad to have a chance to revisit this poem in this chapter. Thanks!
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Jan 26 2008, 1:03am
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Hmm, you pose a lot of interesting questions, although some of them seem too much inclined towards realism, considering that we are dealing with a poem. Over the years I've become more critical of the merits of the poem, mainly because words are being added in an awkward way, only to make a rhyme and the use of alliteration seems clumsy and a bit overdone. I find that Tolkien is trying to be too clever and intricate for his own metric skills.
The main assets of the poem (for me) stems from the idealized nature imagery, where everything is seen from a distance
and infused with a strong sense of lure and enchantment. I don't really feel the weight of doom which is supposed to fall on the lovers, though, and if 'Tolkien wanted me to sense it, I think he mostly failed. But I didn't miss it in the first place.
I like the last stanza and the ending, especially for the great sense of hope embedded in it. What has been skipped of the original story is provided by Strider in prose right afterwards.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 28 2008, 12:39am
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Honestly, they make the poem a little hard to swallow from the combination of syntax and doggeral.
What syntax do you dislike? What in the poem is doggerel ("crudely or irregularly fashioned verse, often of a humorous or burlesque nature" -freedictionary.com).
And since Edith danced amidst hemlocks in England, how can we be sure their appearance here means that Doriath has a Mediterranean climate?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 10 2008, 12:48am
Post #24 of 24
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“cloven feet have vulnerable heels”
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A. What time of year is it?
Late summer: the leaves are “long”.
C. If the starlight was seen shimmering in the shadows in the glade, what light was casting the shadows?
Ah, I suppose it should read “And in the glade a light of stars / was seen in shadow shimmering”. Shimmering in particular where it shines on Tinúviel.
D. What is the effect of starting lines with “And” throughout this poem? For instance, does it make those last two lines a little confusing to parse?
Sure, for a moment you’re wondering what is glimmering in her clothes – or if “music of a pipe unseen” is “in her hair”. It can be unclear whether phrases following “And” continue a previous thought, or begin a new one. Thus also your question S.
I seem to remember lots of prose sentences starting with “and” in The Silmarillion.
E. Does it seem that Beren first sees Tinúviel, rather than hearing that pipe music?
Maybe Daeron was between songs.
F. What color is gold when seen by starlight?
Gold metal might look gold under starlight (I tried looking at some gold coins in a dark space) but not other things that are the color of gold. So are the flowers on Tinúviel’s dress sewn from a metallic fiber?
I. How well does the poet combine his rhyme scheme, meter, and strong alliteration while keeping clear the syntax and meaning of the poem? In other words, do the poetics help or hinder the poem?
Is it ever good poetry to rhyme a word with itself? Tolkien does so regularly here. “Seen” in the first stanza, “leaves” in the second, “feet” and “roam” in the third, “sound” and “leaves” in the fourth, “far” and “strewn” in the fifth, “again” and “spring” in the sixth, “came” and “Tinúviel” in the seventh, and “hair” in the eighth. Does Tolkien do this in his other poetry? I see from your earlier study that he did do this in “Light as Leaf on Linden-tree”, which also was presented as a campfire poem adapted from an earlier work. I wonder if we must always judge Tolkien’s “translated” poetry by the “You write it, you own it” standard you once suggested. Some of Tolkien’s poetry is very sophisticated – compare this piece to “Mythopoeia” or “Our dear Charles Williams”.
J. In the silent forest listening, when Beren can actually hear the light sound of flying feet, does that mean the music is not quavering underground at just those moments?
Tolkien uses “or”. Sometimes Beren hears the music, sometimes just the patter of her feet.
K. 1. Is she underground too, at those moments? 2. Does music (or hollows) that “quaver” sound particularly enchanting?
1. Sure. 2. Is the elusive inherently enchanting?
L. Now what season is it?
Winter.
M. Does Beren see her up on that hill-top – or just us?
Just us, because afterward she “came” again to where he searches.
N. How can a mist be strewn?
Maybe Ulmo did it. This chapter also includes mist that “strayed” and is “swirling”.
O. Yes, it’s very obvious now: but what season is it?
Spring.
P. How has Beren been “healed again”? When was the first time? What went wrong?
He was “healed” of weariness when he first saw Tinúviel in late summer, then grew weary again over winter as he sought her unavailingly. As she releases spring, he is “healed again”.
Q. What does Beren want: to touch/hold/meet her – or just to dance and sing with her?
Like Smith with the elf-maid?
R. First Beren was “enchanted”. Now it is Tinúviel who comes under the spell of his voice. What has changed in the dynamic between these two? Why this resolution – why now?
Because he calls her name? How did he learn it? And what does it have to do with the seasons?
S. We know her garment “glimmers”. Is that what is “glistening” now as she lies in his arms?
Yes, that is her sleeves not her arms.
T. “elven-fair” and “elven-[wise]” are repeated strongly here. Does this convey to us that Beren is not “elven”?
The phrasing might also suggest to us that Tinúviel is as fair and wise as an elf, but not herself elvish. (And she is actually half-elven.)
U. What does the “shadowiness” of her hair do? What does it represent (see lines 3-4, 16, 58, 63)?
It’s her “glamour”. It’s a veil. It’s her virginity?
V. Tinúviel wears golden flowers on her dress and sleeves (line 15), yet her arms are “like silver” (line 64), as was the mist during the winter (line 40). One sound fashion rule is don’t mix gold and silver, no?
Different seasons, different clothes?
W. Does the final stanza finish the poem in a satisfactory way?
It’s odd, how Tolkien focuses on just this one incident from that long tale.
X. What is this poem about? Why does Strider choose to sing it under the circumstances? What should the hobbits ‘get’ from it?
Perseverance has rewards?
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