Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Unfinished Tales discussion: The Wanderings of Tuor Part 3
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

demnation
Rohan

Dec 8 2013, 2:48pm

Post #1 of 31 (380 views)
Shortcut
Unfinished Tales discussion: The Wanderings of Tuor Part 3 Can't Post

First, a brief summary of preceding events: Tuor is born. His father Huor is killed in the Battle of Unumbered Tears. His mother Rian later dies at the Hill of the Slain.

http://tolkiengateway.net/...he_Hill_of_Slain.jpg

To me, one of the most haunting things in all of Tolkien's work. Tuor spends his youth in hiding, and is eventually captured by the Easterlings and enslaved. Tuor escapes, begins life as an outlaw, and is eventually lured to the sea by Ulmo. Ulmo speaks to him, and gives him as mission of great importance: find Gondolin and deliver the Doom of Mandos unto Turgon. And here we are. First, the obvious thing: Tuor's dream, described thusly:

"....and his sleep was troubled with many dreams, of which naught remained in waking memory save one: a vision of an isle, and in the midst of it was a steep mountain, and behind it the sun went down, and shadows sprang into the sky; but above it there shone a single dazzling star."

Sounds rather curious. What do you think the significance is?

The next morning, Tuor espies an Elf on the beach. Remembering Ulmo's words, he calls out to the Elf by name: Voronwe, who at first believes Tuor to be an Elf. Do you find anything curious about this brief case of mistake identity? After being surprised by his knowledge of Ulmo, Voronwe agrees to lead Tuor to Gondolin. Voronwe agrees rather quickly, all things considered. How well do you think Tolkien handles Voronwe's and Tuor's first meeting?

They then choose their weapons and depart. What follows is a mostly one sided talk that is far too lengthy and in depth to accurately summarize here.Suffice it to say, there is a lot going on in this conversation. Stylistically, how well do you think this conversation works out? Tolkien often has moments where characters talk for extended lengths of time, and this is one time I think it doesn't work out too well.

Whew! This is my first time leading a discussion, and I hope it works out ok for everyone. Hopefully I can lead more in the future, and I'll get better at it. As ever, feel free to add any comments about anything I may have skipped over (which is a lot). Thank you all for this opportunity, and I look forward to reading all your thoughts!

Hello!

(This post was edited by demnation on Dec 8 2013, 2:56pm)


Mikah
Lorien

Dec 8 2013, 7:12pm

Post #2 of 31 (283 views)
Shortcut
Voronwe's Monologue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good Morning...or almost afternoon in my case! I really enjoyed reading this part of the story again. I am really not the best person to be commenting on Tuor's dream. There are many here who are much more talented at interpreting the dreams and visions of Tolkien's work. They see with a depth which I simply do not have the talent for. With that being said, I believe Tuor's dream to be a premonition, or a foretelling of things to come. This is a most obvious answer, I know and I am certain that there is imagery here that is of significance that I simply have not noticed. Nothing in Tolkien's world is as easy as pointing out the obvious, is it?

Now to Tolkien's writing style. It is indeed often very conversational. We learn much of Tolkien's characters from the conversations that they have with one another. He is also a very persuasive and eloquent writer. In my mind he mastered the art of description. He puts in enough description to see things from his point of view, yet still leaves much to the imagination. I appreciate that about it. In applying this particular writing style to this piece of writing, I can certainly understand why you would say it did not quite work. Looking at it from this perspective it would seem to be rather unilateral and unbalanced. However, I have always looked at this section as more of a monologue. We are getting a story from Voronwe's point of view. As he tells his story he is very thoughtful and insightful. He is trying to work his history and circumstances out in his own mind. I am guessing that the remembrance revealed to Tuor were the very thoughts that he was having when sitting quietly on the beach. He was having this conversation more with himself, than with Tuor. After all, he was attempting to come to terms with a very harrowing ordeal and the sequence of events that brought him there. Perhaps approached from this point of view, maybe it will not seem so disjointed?

As always, this is just my two-cents and take it with a grain of salt! I very much enjoyed reading your discussion! Not a lot of people would think to discuss an author's writing style in a forum, and it is so important...it is their voice! Good question!


(This post was edited by Mikah on Dec 8 2013, 7:17pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 9 2013, 2:28am

Post #3 of 31 (258 views)
Shortcut
Work and exhaustion limit me tonight... [In reply to] Can't Post

but this sounds a promising avenue of discussion Demnation! Especially that Star image.

More tomorrow!! Cool

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





squire
Valinor


Dec 9 2013, 3:10am

Post #4 of 31 (265 views)
Shortcut
That sounds like the Isle of the Gift [In reply to] Can't Post

Tuor in his dreams has "...a vision of an isle, and in the midst of it was a steep mountain, and behind it the sun went down, and shadows sprang into the sky; but above it there shone a single dazzling star."

Sounds like Numenor to me. It's the only island with a mountain that I can remember in the Tolkien legends. The story is looking quite a lot further along than usual if my guess is right. Tuor's son will be Earendil, who will use the Silmaril to gain access and grace from the Valar. He himself will be translated into the heavens as a sign of the Valar's care for those in mortal lands. And when the Edain (Tuor's people, among others) are rewarded for their part in the wars against Morgoth, it will be the star of Earendil that will guide the ships of Men to the land of the gift, the island in mid-ocean that became Numenor.

So Tuor is given quite a bit of foresight here. I'm not sure how this particular dream informs his adventure of finding Gondolin. I'd guess it's just Tolkien amusing himself with being the Master of Fate for his story characters. In the same way he gave Frodo prophetic dreams in LotR that had nothing to do with the story at hand but gave it depth by tying the hobbit's adventure to the longer history of Middle-earth.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Valinor


Dec 10 2013, 1:17am

Post #5 of 31 (226 views)
Shortcut
The wanderings of Tuor and ramblings of Voronwe (and me) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for leading this chapter, Dem! Is this really your 1st time? You seem quite natural at it.

The dream and Fate: my guess is it's Numenor, and Tuor is seeing not only that his life leads to Earendil, the salvation of Elves & Men, but to a new beginning for Men where they reach their zenith. How's that for being overwhelmed by destiny? It's a good thing he didn't understand any of it, or he'd be petrified by fear or dangerously euphoric. What do you suppose is the role of Fate here when Ulmo seems to be crafting Tuor's fate in defiance of the fate decreed by Mandos, while excusing his own role as renegade Vala in telling Tuor "I seem to oppose the will of my brethren...that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong..." How many more ways can you twist fate around and have it still be fate and not your own decisions? Are Ulmo, Tuor, and Voronwe making any decisions on their own, or are they puppets playing the roles that fate has assigned them?

Voronwe and Tuor: the bromance. I think when an Elf assumes a Man is another Elf, it's a compliment that they seem to be from the superior race (Elves). Which is racist if you think about it too much. How well is this meeting handled? I find this to be a piece of writing much in need of polish that we see elsewhere in "Finished Tales." The chemistry in other chance encounters in The Silmarillion is more convincing, even in lesser situations, like Gwindor and Turin. I think that fate is so heavy-handed here, that these two simply must trust each other and travel together, that normal interpersonal development is lacking. Similarly, I find Ulmo's speech stilted and Voronwe's rambling. I don't want to sound too critical; it's just the nature of a rough draft. Think how great it would have been after Tolkien revised it. Yet some things in the rough are still breathtaking, like Ulmo arising from the sea. That scene alone is worth reading the rest of this chapter.

You're right that Tolkien handles long speeches better in other areas (I love the Council of Elrond) than he does here. But on the plus side, I find the information that Voronwe conveys fascinating. His description of the racial mingling of Elves in Nevrast fills in gaps for me--I always wonder how that worked, or if it did. He's related to Cirdan--that's cool. He's supposed to go to the sea but tarries in Nan-tathren, which he describes rapturously: "There Ulmo is but the servant of Yavanna." What a powerful line from the legendarium! If I think of The Sil, there's a lot of epic stuff going on, but you never get a down-to-earth, personal perspective on Beleriand like you do from Voronwe when he talks about his feelings for his people and the land.

What becomes immediately apparent is that Voronwe is The Wise One telling the (foolish young Jedi) to be cautious and mature. But Voronwe isn't quite as grating on me as Gelmir, who earlier declaimed things like "Through darkness one may come to the light." I'm all for lofty speech found elsewhere in The Sil, but not when it's forced to the point that I wince as I read. Otherwise, what I see here is the pairing of Beleg and Turin, where Tuor learns more Voronwe than Turin did from his mentor, even if both were equally manipulated by fate.

Is the reason that Tuor came to a better end than Turin due to Tuor's fate being shaped by Ulmo's kindness, and Turin's by Morgoth's malice?


demnation
Rohan

Dec 10 2013, 1:59am

Post #6 of 31 (222 views)
Shortcut
That was my first thought [In reply to] Can't Post

Numenor was the only island that popped into my head when I read that. It seems a bit random, but Tolkien does like his little mysteries sometimes.

Hello!


demnation
Rohan

Dec 10 2013, 2:06am

Post #7 of 31 (212 views)
Shortcut
You're right about his characters being conversational [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien doesn't write very often from inside a person's head, (in fact, almost never) and that makes him pretty unique. We learn about his characters from what they say and how they act, and I rather like that since it's pretty true to real life. My main gripe with Voronowe's speech primarily has to do with it's sheer length. I mean, it doesn't seem the poor guy even stops for a drink of water! Wink

Hello!


demnation
Rohan

Dec 10 2013, 3:03am

Post #8 of 31 (223 views)
Shortcut
The dream and Fate [In reply to] Can't Post

I look forward to the day when I'm reading UT or The Sil and the relevance of Tuor's dream will suddenly become apparent. It most certainly is a good thing that Tuor doesn't understand any of it, just as it's a good thing that I don't, either!

Voronwe and rambling: I think Council of Elrond works because even though there is a lot of monologuing, it is all from multiple characters speaking in their own, distinctive voices. Voronwe's speech is a little too long-winded and one-sided for my taste. I do agree that the info he gives is fascinating; in fact a bit overwhelming for a first time reader like me! All in all, it's probably best not to get too critical since Tolkien probably never intended to publish the version of the story.

And thanks for the compliment! This is a lot of fun and I look forward to leading more!

Hello!


Mikah
Lorien

Dec 10 2013, 5:08am

Post #9 of 31 (212 views)
Shortcut
I love this! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that fate is so heavy-handed here, that these two simply must trust each other and travel together, that normal interpersonal development is lacking. Similarly, I find Ulmo's speech stilted and Voronwe's rambling.

You get props from me on this...I laughed and laughed when I read it. So true. I have interpreted in my own mind that Voronwe is going to tell his story and does not much give a ahem...hang, whether Tuor wants to hear it or not. He is telling it and that is all there is to it! Gotta love Voronwe, he's got something to say and he's saying it, by golly. He would make a good politician, I am thinking filibuster here, he might have missed his calling!


squire
Valinor


Dec 10 2013, 5:36am

Post #10 of 31 (217 views)
Shortcut
Mysterious, but not random [In reply to] Can't Post

Numenor is certainly relevant to the tale of Tuor. As noted before, it is the star of Earendil - Tuor's son - that guides the ships of the Edain, now the Dunedain, to their gifted Isle.

In typical Tolkien fashion, the dream is described compactly and every word counts.
"...a vision of an isle, and in the midst of it was a steep mountain, and behind it the sun went down, and shadows sprang into the sky; but above it there shone a single dazzling star."

The isle represents a half-way position between the mortal lands and the immortal, showing that the Men of Numenor will come as close to living Elven lives as possible. The mountain is a miniature of Taniquetil itself, the peak of Manwe in Valinor, showing that the Valar and even Eru himself are present and stand protectively over the Isle. The sunset represents the need to look to the West when darkness comes, and the shadows in the sky represent the temptation of that darkness and the eventual triumph of Sauron over Numenor. Yet the single dazzling star, the Elven Silmaril which will become the star of the Mortal Man Earendil, remains above the Shadow. It shows that even the fall of Numenor will not be the end of the Dunedain, who will live on by the line of the Faithful: Elendil, Isildur, eventually Elessar, and (yes) Faramir.

In other words, what Tuor sees in his dream is the fate of his race for the next six thousand years - a fate he will initiate, a fate darkened by the shadow but redeemed by the irrepressible fertility and hopefulness of Man.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 10 2013, 6:16pm

Post #11 of 31 (207 views)
Shortcut
Mistaken identity and other thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, my first thought on Voronwë's mistake was the helm Tuor wore. It covered his whole head, and thus he could not see whether his ears were pointed or not!!!

Okay...seriously now.

The mistake is due to his kingly appearance. The incongruous kingly bearing is a motif that I see a lot. I think of Aragorn, who looked like a king, in spite of his rough features and careworn face. It seems to reinforce the idea of a person's worthiness in a position. They LOOK the part, though they usually don't, in contrast to those who usually look worthy, but are not.

Talkativeness would seem a little strange. He had just lost his friends and was miles away from home. I see it as filler space. It is a long journey, and its one side of their talks, we know all about Tuor at this point, so no sense repeating it. Thus we hear about the other half of the story, Voronwë. He speaks of the Doom, so we know Tuor has spoken to him of it.

The peril of the sea is strange. Ulmo seems to oppose the work of Cirdan. In this, he seems to work with his brethren. He doesn't sink them though, Ossë seems to do that.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 10 2013, 9:04pm

Post #12 of 31 (192 views)
Shortcut
Wonderful interpretation of the image Squire [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting too, is that if we regard the Sun as the marred Light, its absence leaves behind the starlight - purer and unsullied light.

Following the sun's path West feels like a continuation of the journey Men began as they travelled from undescribed darkness in the east into Beleriand.

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 10 2013, 9:25pm

Post #13 of 31 (195 views)
Shortcut
Tuor and Voronwe [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

The next morning, Tuor espies an Elf on the beach. Remembering Ulmo's words, he calls out to the Elf by name: Voronwe, who at first believes Tuor to be an Elf. Do you find anything curious about this brief case of mistake identity? After being surprised by his knowledge of Ulmo, Voronwe agrees to lead Tuor to Gondolin. Voronwe agrees rather quickly, all things considered. How well do you think Tolkien handles Voronwe's and Tuor's first meeting? It is interestingly conflict-free isn't it? The mistaken identity issue I think helps as a device in this: the higher position of Tuor in relation to Voronwe and the armor of his people give him a reverence for this figure, and perhaps acceptance, that may not have been so easily given in a man-to-Noldor meeting on a casual and equal footing. In the interest of brevity, it works: the armor and Tuor's appearance allow him to drop that most important of names, Ulmo, and have it be believed by the Noldor. In a longer, expanded tale I wonder if Tuor would have been obligated to prove himself somehow, versus his value being immediately accepted by Voronwe? They then choose their weapons and depart. What follows is a mostly one sided talk that is far too lengthy and in depth to accurately summarize here.Suffice it to say, there is a lot going on in this conversation. Stylistically, how well do you think this conversation works out? Tolkien often has moments where characters talk for extended lengths of time, and this is one time I think it doesn't work out too well. It sounds very 'old' style, plus it is very expositional and functional in its way. I wonder if these drafts had been expanded, there would have been a more circular, more referred way of having all of this information presented. The Council of Elrond, for example, has much more life to it as the flavors of speech vary with every character, unconsciously giving it a sense of motion I think. This much single-character dialogue works for the reader looking for more detail very, very well: as a longtime fan I find it a great read. For the first time or lighter reader...one might begin to lose interest. Could Voronwe's focus on the happenings on the Bay of Balar are like a subtle telegraphing of the destiny of Tuor's line, if his mission succeeds? It seems odd that Voronwe focuses on this part of the tale and that it is highlighted as such when Tuor asks questions about Turgon.

Whew! This is my first time leading a discussion, and I hope it works out ok for everyone. Hopefully I can lead more in the future, and I'll get better at it. As ever, feel free to add any comments about anything I may have skipped over (which is a lot). Thank you all for this opportunity, and I look forward to reading all your thoughts! Thanks Demnation! (I keep apologizing for being tardy, but my work week doesn't time well with chapter starts at times!) This is a real pleasure!


The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 10 2013, 9:26pm

Post #14 of 31 (188 views)
Shortcut
Actually that's a really good point Rem! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Well, my first thought on Voronwë's mistake was the helm Tuor wore. It covered his whole head, and thus he could not see whether his ears were pointed or not!!!


The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 10 2013, 9:42pm

Post #15 of 31 (187 views)
Shortcut
Tales of cousins... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

You're right that Tolkien handles long speeches better in other areas (I love the Council of Elrond) than he does here. But on the plus side, I find the information that Voronwe conveys fascinating. His description of the racial mingling of Elves in Nevrast fills in gaps for me--I always wonder how that worked, or if it did. He's related to Cirdan--that's cool. He's supposed to go to the sea but tarries in Nan-tathren, which he describes rapturously: "There Ulmo is but the servant of Yavanna." What a powerful line from the legendarium! If I think of The Sil, there's a lot of epic stuff going on, but you never get a down-to-earth, personal perspective on Beleriand like you do from Voronwe when he talks about his feelings for his people and the land.
True, as I posted to Demnation to the hard core fan its wonderful stuff. I suppose single-character exposition may suffer, and its not really that easy to do. Aragorn does it in "Knife in the Dark" when discussing the past with the Hobbits, but his explanation is assisted by (and broken up as well) by the song-portion of the tale. I think that this section would have been a wonderful read if it included a Noldor song, recited by Voronwe for Tuor's benefit.
What becomes immediately apparent is that Voronwe is The Wise One telling the (foolish young Jedi) to be cautious and mature. But Voronwe isn't quite as grating on me as Gelmir, who earlier declaimed things like "Through darkness one may come to the light." I'm all for lofty speech found elsewhere in The Sil, but not when it's forced to the point that I wince as I read. Otherwise, what I see here is the pairing of Beleg and Turin, where Tuor learns more Voronwe than Turin did from his mentor, even if both were equally manipulated by fate. Well the very archaic language (high talk, as you say) fits in the larger, more wide scopes of the Sil but is a bit clunky in interactions; very true. Vornwe versus Beleg is an interesting comparison: Voronwe serves Tuor well but is less invested personally I think than Beleg was with Turin (which ended badly.) The ideal Firstborn more as Shepherds than Bros?

Is the reason that Tuor came to a better end than Turin due to Tuor's fate being shaped by Ulmo's kindness, and Turin's by Morgoth's malice? TNow that's a cool question...thematically I think so much of Turin's fate is due to the fate of Kullervo...really it is Tuor who is retrofit as the later-arriving parallel cousin. Their fates are both buffeted, true: a tale of four cousins, and not two: the Children and the Valar? In which case the two become a sort of pieces in the larger chess gamer played by Ulmo and Morgoth.

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





demnation
Rohan

Dec 10 2013, 11:39pm

Post #16 of 31 (185 views)
Shortcut
Ha! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Well, my first thought on Voronwë's mistake was the helm Tuor wore. It covered his whole head, and thus he could not see whether his ears were pointed or not!!!


Now you're just making fun of me! Wink
Thanks for your thoughts!

Hello!


demnation
Rohan

Dec 10 2013, 11:46pm

Post #17 of 31 (177 views)
Shortcut
Appreciate your thoughts, Brethil [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
as a longtime fan I find it a great read. For the first time or lighter reader...one might begin to lose interest. Could Voronwe's focus on the happenings on the Bay of Balar are like a subtle telegraphing of the destiny of Tuor's line, if his mission succeeds? It seems odd that Voronwe focuses on this part of the tale and that it is highlighted as such when Tuor asks questions about Turgon.


As a first time reader, I certainly find it interesting but also quite overwhelming. I must admit that I feel a bit out of my depth with this story, but I'm trying to read more in other places (like The Sil) and all of your thoughts are certainly helping me to clarify things!

Hello!


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 10 2013, 11:50pm

Post #18 of 31 (184 views)
Shortcut
Nah....just some lighthearted fun!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 11 2013, 2:46am

Post #19 of 31 (176 views)
Shortcut
Really geeky point about the lembas [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
as a longtime fan I find it a great read. For the first time or lighter reader...one might begin to lose interest. Could Voronwe's focus on the happenings on the Bay of Balar are like a subtle telegraphing of the destiny of Tuor's line, if his mission succeeds? It seems odd that Voronwe focuses on this part of the tale and that it is highlighted as such when Tuor asks questions about Turgon.


As a first time reader, I certainly find it interesting but also quite overwhelming. I must admit that I feel a bit out of my depth with this story, but I'm trying to read more in other places (like The Sil) and all of your thoughts are certainly helping me to clarify things!
That was my experience as well Demnation!Wink

An interesting point that I wanted to raise - we have Voronwe being cast up on the shore near Vinyamar, having been sent from Gondolin...he carries lembas with him I see.

I wonder here, since what appears in the published Sil in Turin's chapter, "for according to the customs of the Edalie the keeping and giving of lembas belonged to the Queen alone" and if this implies that Voronwe had been to Doriath.

There was no Queen in Nargothrond even when it stood, nor was there one in Gondolin. The lembas given to Beleg comes from Melian the Queen and in LOTR we have Galadriel, Queen of Lorien handing out the Elven waybread. So the Queen construct seems to be consistent - if so that implies that Voronwe may have entered Doriath with leave from Thingol and was given Melian's favor, at some point? Was there a kinship between them that Voronwe would have been allowed - maybe in the house of Fingolfin, whom Thingol allowed to enter his realm?

(Voronwe, born in Nevrast, would have of course been guiltless of any Kinslaying).

I don't know if anyone else knows more about this, or if it is a concept JRRT might have abandoned at a later draft due to just this issue...or if, as it stands, it gives us a glimpse into Voronwe's journeys.

(TOLD you it was geeky.)Laugh


The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





CuriousG
Valinor


Dec 11 2013, 12:10pm

Post #20 of 31 (162 views)
Shortcut
Geeky and cheeky [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we know where lembas comes from? (Hmm, that sounds like where do babies come from.)

Did all Elves make it, or did the Teleri learn it from the Noldor, or vice versa? "Eldalie" means all the Eldar, so that doesn't help narrow it down.

I ask about the origin to put it in context. If the Noldor made it too, then Idril could have been the Bestower of Lembas in Gondolin as the closest thing to a queen. While Tolkien says Queen with a Q for some emphasis in the lembas comment, he deliberately never called Galadriel the queen of Lorien, and she got stuck with the "lady" title, so technically, I don't think you need to be a queen to dispense it, just a woman with royal authority.

Though I wonder in practice if every traveling Elf received lembas from a Queen/queen/boss-lady, or if they made it themselves, and if it was just a special deal to get it from a lady-boss to make your errand more official?

Otherwise, as chatty as Voronwe is, it seems he'd mention Doriath if he'd been there. I'm surprised he doesn't whip out a slideshow for poor, captive audience Tuor. "And here I am on the beach of Balar, and there's me in Gondolin, and..."


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 11 2013, 2:22pm

Post #21 of 31 (168 views)
Shortcut
LOL!! and lembas. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I remember Galadriel giving them out, Beleg had them from Melian, and now Voronwë.

In the first two cases, the queens/ladies equipped a quest or journey for those she cared for: the Fellowship and Túrin. Weren't they both wrapped in leaves? I think that lembas were a special art of the Eldar, and they were always chary of giving out their knowledge free and clear. Maybe it took a special lady to break that tradition? They were both extraordinary women. Maybe they were 'blessing' their quests in some way?

Now Voronwë is a different case. He did not come from a place where a lady ruled, nor was he a man, dwarf, or Halfling. The difference also extends to the packaging. Voronwë's lembas was in a small wallet pouch that kept it dry. Wrapped in leaves? I do not know. It was sort of like emergency food. Elven L-Rations?? I think that this pouch was universal to the sailors of Círdan, a last resort for wrecked seamen.

Lembas was ubiquitous among the Elves, IMHO, as it was not too magical sounding, more skillfully baked. Consider the different people's that had it. I think it was a universal Elven supply for long journeys. It just took special circumstances to become known to non-Elves.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


sador
Half-elven


Dec 11 2013, 4:17pm

Post #22 of 31 (161 views)
Shortcut
Late answers [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you think the significance is?
Well, obviously Numenor (with Meneltrama), and
Earendil.
But I wonder whether it is a reworking of Tolkien's old poems centered on the Imram describing St. Brendan. Un fact, I hadn't answered yestreday because I planned to look this up last night - but I never got around to doing that. Blush

Do you find anything curious about this brief case of mistake identity?
Well, arguably Turin as the Adanedhel was similar to an Elf as well. And the elvish armour helped the confusion.




Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 11 2013, 5:54pm

Post #23 of 31 (160 views)
Shortcut
All possibilities (cheeky monkey) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Do we know where lembas comes from? (Hmm, that sounds like where do babies come from.)

Did all Elves make it, or did the Teleri learn it from the Noldor, or vice versa? "Eldalie" means all the Eldar, so that doesn't help narrow it down.

I ask about the origin to put it in context. If the Noldor made it too, then Idril could have been the Bestower of Lembas in Gondolin as the closest thing to a queen. While Tolkien says Queen with a Q for some emphasis in the lembas comment, he deliberately never called Galadriel the queen of Lorien, and she got stuck with the "lady" title, so technically, I don't think you need to be a queen to dispense it, just a woman with royal authority.

Though I wonder in practice if every traveling Elf received lembas from a Queen/queen/boss-lady, or if they made it themselves, and if it was just a special deal to get it from a lady-boss to make your errand more official?

Otherwise, as chatty as Voronwe is, it seems he'd mention Doriath if he'd been there. I'm surprised he doesn't whip out a slideshow for poor, captive audience Tuor. "And here I am on the beach of Balar, and there's me in Gondolin, and..."




All potentially true - I did consider if Idril would be a 'queen' but it doesn't quite feel right. Of course Melian could have somehow sent some to Gondolin, where the mariners used it on their errand ... any number of interpolations. Its a stretch I know, to try to explain its presence...it simply intrigued me with that bit that was used in the Sil. and if it represented a story fill or an abandoned idea.

Slideshows (*snicker*). Sly

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 12 2013, 4:57pm

Post #24 of 31 (146 views)
Shortcut
A few answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you find anything curious about this brief case of mistake identity?
No, not really. Tolkien explicitly states that Tuor is wearing elvish mail, so it only stands to reason that he'd get mistaken for an elf. It might, however, be an subtle foreshadowing of his eventual fate of being counted among the Noldor.

How well do you think Tolkien handles Voronwe's and Tuor's first meeting?
I think it's great. There are some really incredible passages in this section! This one is especially interesting: "'I do not bid you to lead me further than the gate,’ said Tuor. ‘There Doom shall strive with the Counsel of Ulmo. And if Turgon will not receive me, then my errand will be ended, and Doom shall prevail.'"

I wonder what exactly Tolkien is saying in this passage. What exactly is "Doom" that he speaks of? And how does it interrelate to the "Counsel of Ulmo"? And ultimately, whatever the relationship, did Doom prevail? Turgon welcomed Tuor, yes, but did not heed the Counsel of Ulmo. So perhaps neither won. I'm not sure, but it's an interesting question I think.

This is pure poetry:


Quote
‘But the Great Sea is terrible....Worse things it holds than to sink into the abyss and so perish: loathing, and loneliness, and madness; terror of wind and tumult, and silence, and shadows where all hope is lost and all living shapes pass away. And many shores evil and strange it washes, and many islands of danger and fear infest it.'


Tolkien's ability to paint such a vivid picture never ceases to amaze me!

Thanks for leading the discussion, demnation! I look forward to seeing you in the Reading Room more often Smile

"Yet fairest of all are the willows of Nan-tathren, pale green, or silver in the wind, and the rustle of their innumerable leaves is a spell of music: day and night would flicker by uncounted, while still I stood knee-deep in grass and listened. There I was enchanted, and forgot the Sea in my heart." - Unfinished Tales


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 12 2013, 5:47pm

Post #25 of 31 (141 views)
Shortcut
Doom and fate and Ulmo's Counsel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
How well do you think Tolkien handles Voronwe's and Tuor's first meeting?
I think it's great. There are some really incredible passages in this section! This one is especially interesting: "'I do not bid you to lead me further than the gate,’ said Tuor. ‘There Doom shall strive with the Counsel of Ulmo. And if Turgon will not receive me, then my errand will be ended, and Doom shall prevail.'"
I wonder what exactly Tolkien is saying in this passage. What exactly is "Doom" that he speaks of? And how does it interrelate to the "Counsel of Ulmo"? And ultimately, whatever the relationship, did Doom prevail? Turgon welcomed Tuor, yes, but did not heed the Counsel of Ulmo. So perhaps neither won. I'm not sure, but it's an interesting question I think.

It is an intriguing passage. I *think* here the use of the word 'doom' might be a synonym for a specific type of 'fate'.

It made me think of two other uses in the works: one in the Council of Elrond where Boromir's dream is told, and the term 'Doom of Men" describing mortality. I think they might both loosely mean 'fate' and its specific potential for proscribed destruction in their contexts, and maybe it has the same connotation here.

In which case, the Counsel of Ulmo - 'love not to well he work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea...' (warning about the loss of Gondolin, which we get in the published Sil) - will strive with Doom and Fate of the Noldor: the Curse of Mandos. Ulmo mentions it earlier, when he asks Tuor to take up his errand - he names both Fate and Doom: 'in the armour of Fate (as the children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach..." using them to describe the Noldor being hemmed in by the Curse.

I think specifically the 'Doom' that he fears will prevail he lays out in the same passage: 'And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfillment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they have built will crumble.'

So no, Turgon was not saved: I think Ulmo tried but it was not to be, not having seen the Blessed Realm: poor Turgon could not lose it twice. But ultimately the Doom did not prevail: Earendel was born, and the hopes of the Noldor were unexpectedly granted with the surge from the West; they did not crumble into dust and disappear entirely. Earendel's mission changed the Curse (or Doom) that was upon the Noldor.

Interesting though: they could not do it alone. They needed Men, the unknown part of the Song, to join with them, and Ulmo I think changes the outcome of his brethren, particularly wrathful Mandos in this draft.


The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Dec 12 2013, 5:48pm)

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.