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squire
Gondolin
Jan 15 2008, 12:44am
Post #1 of 30
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**A Knife in the Dark** 2. “So ends all hope of starting early, and slipping away quietly”
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With Crickhollow raided, Fatty safe, and the guards of the Buckland gate lying bleeding in the Riders’ dust, we return to the hobbits at Bree.
In the early night Frodo woke from deep sleep, suddenly, as if some sound or presence had disturbed him. He saw that Strider was sitting alert in his chair: his eyes gleamed in the light of the fire, which had been tended and was burning brightly; but he made no sign or movement.
A. What wakes Frodo? What time is it?
Frodo soon went to sleep again; but his dreams were again troubled with the noise of wind and of galloping hoofs. The wind seemed to be curling round the house and shaking it; and far off he heard a horn blowing wildly. He opened his eyes, and heard a cock crowing lustily in the inn-yard. Strider had drawn the curtains and pushed back the shutters with a clang. The first grey light of day was in the room, and a cold air was coming through the open window.
Frodo is dreaming “again”! Remember his earlier dreams?
Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. …. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder. (FotR, end of Chapter 5, sleeping at Crickhollow)
There was a noise like a strong wind blowing, and on it was borne the sound of hoofs, galloping, galloping, galloping from the East. 'Black Riders!' thought Frodo as he wakened, with the sound of the hoofs still echoing in his mind. (FotR, middle of Chapter 7, sleeping at Bombadil’s)
That night they heard no noises. But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind; a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise. (FotR, beginning of Chapter 8, second night at Bombadil’s)
B. When Frodo’s dreams are “again troubled with the noise of wind and of galloping hoofs” – right after reading about the Riders at Buckland - what are we supposed to think?
When the cock crows at Crickhollow, we are told “The cold hour before dawn was passing. …. In the dark without moon or stars…”. Now when the cock crows at Bree “The first grey light of day was in the room”.
C. When do cocks crow: in the dark, or in the dawn’s early light?
As soon as Strider had roused them all, he led the way to their bedrooms. When they saw them they were glad that they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping; the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung upon the floor; the brown mat was torn to pieces.
This has been discussed, but I forgot what people thought last time around.
D. Did the Black Riders “force” the windows open and “slash” the bolsters and “tear” the brown mat to pieces? Or was it their lackeys from Bree? What does it seem that we are supposed to think if we skip the close analysis so popular in the Reading Room and are just reading along?
E. How did the Riders coordinate two attacks in the same night almost 100 miles apart? Or did they?
Strider immediately went to fetch the landlord. Poor Mr. Butterbur looked sleepy and frightened. He had hardly closed his eyes all night (so he said), but he had never heard a sound.
'Never has such a thing happened in my time!' he cried, raising his hands in horror. 'Guests unable to sleep in their beds, and good bolsters ruined and all! What are we coming to?'
F. Does anyone ever “raise their hands in horror” outside of adventure romances?
'Dark times,' said Strider. 'But for the present you may be left in peace, when you have got rid of us. We will leave at once. Never mind about breakfast: a drink and a bite standing will have to do. We shall be packed in a few minutes.'
Mr. Butterbur hurried off to see that their ponies were got ready, and to fetch them a 'bite'. But very soon he came back in dismay. The ponies had vanished! The stable-doors had all been opened in the night, and they were gone: not only Merry's ponies, but every other horse and beast in the place.
Frodo was crushed by the news. How could they hope to reach Rivendell on foot, pursued by mounted enemies? They might as well set out for the Moon. Strider sat silent for a while, looking at the hobbits, as if he was weighing up their strength and courage.
'Ponies would not help us to escape horsemen,' he said at last, thoughtfully, as if he guessed what Frodo had in mind. 'We should not go much slower on foot, not on the roads that I mean to take. I was going to walk in any case. It is the food and stores that trouble me. We cannot count on getting anything to eat between here and Rivendell, except what we take with us; and we ought to take plenty to spare; for we may be delayed, or forced to go round-about, far out of the direct way. How much are you prepared to carry on your backs?'
G. Does Frodo believe the Moon is a physical place that one could travel to, except for the impossibility of it being in outer space? Is Frodo thinking of his comic song from the night before? Who first coined the phrase “might as well set out for the Moon”?
H. Why does Frodo not say what he thinks to Strider, so that Strider does not have to “guess what he has in mind”?
'As much as we must,' said Pippin with a sinking heart, but trying to show that he was tougher than he looked (or felt).
'I can carry enough for two,' said Sam defiantly.
'Can't anything be done, Mr. Butterbur?' asked Frodo. 'Can't we get a couple of ponies in the village, or even one just for the baggage? I don't suppose we could hire them, but we might be able to buy them,' he added, doubtfully, wondering if he could afford it.
'I doubt it,' said the landlord unhappily. 'The two or three riding-ponies that there were in Bree were stabled in my yard, and they're gone. As for other animals, horses or ponies for draught or what not, there are very few of them in Bree, and they won't be for sale. But I'll do what I can. I'll rout out Bob and send him round as soon as may be.'
I. Why are there so few draught animals (farm animals for pulling plows and wagons) in Bree? Is it an agricultural community, or not?
Twice Tolkien says “other beast” or “what not” in addition to naming horses and ponies here.
J. Would Sam have made friends with a goat or an ox the way he did with Bill the Pony?
'Yes,' said Strider reluctantly, 'you had better do that. I am afraid we shall have to try to get one pony at least. But so ends all hope of starting early, and slipping away quietly! We might as well have blown a horn to announce our departure. That was part of their plan, no doubt.'
'There is one crumb of comfort,' said Merry, 'and more than a crumb, I hope: we can have breakfast while we wait - and sit down to it. Let's get hold of Nob!'
K. Is Merry being a jerk here?
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 15 2008, 1:42am
Post #2 of 30
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A. What wakes Frodo? What time is it?
A personal need. Not sure what provision there may have been in the parlor. It's probably about 2 am, that's when I usually wake up.
B. When Frodo’s dreams are “again troubled with the noise of wind and of galloping hoofs” – right after reading about the Riders at Buckland - what are we supposed to think?
We're supposed to think he's sensing Fatty's adventure, but it's more likely in this case that he's hearing all the animals in Bree heading for the hills.
Nice comparison of the dreams.
C. When do cocks crow: in the dark, or in the dawn’s early light?
Yes. Cocks crow a lot. Don't live near them if you can help it. Crowing cocks are useful to humans (on rare occasions) as markers in an otherwise featureless night ("A cock crowed, and then I noticed...").
D. Did the Black Riders “force” the windows open and “slash” the bolsters and “tear” the brown mat to pieces? Or was it their lackeys from Bree? What does it seem that we are supposed to think if we skip the close analysis so popular in the Reading Room and are just reading along?
It took me several reads and a Reading Room discussion to understand the answer to the first part, and I wouldn't dare spoil it for others, although I did drop a hint last week.
As for the last question, we're obviously supposed to be close readers, aren't we? Tolkien didn't go to all this trouble to sort out timelines and phases of the moon for casual skimmers.
E. How did the Riders coordinate two attacks in the same night almost 100 miles apart? Or did they?
That's easy, they didn't. Two groups of riders operating more-or-less independently (any kind of communication? telepathy? Crebain? email?), each dealing with the situation at hand.
F. Does anyone ever “raise their hands in horror” outside of adventure romances?
Well, I think startled folks will put their hands to their faces, does that count? The 'hands up palms forward' pose is pretty unusual, I think.
G. Does Frodo believe the Moon is a physical place that one could travel to, except for the impossibility of it being in outer space? Is Frodo thinking of his comic song from the night before? Who first coined the phrase “might as well set out for the Moon”?
The Moon is as real to Frodo as the end of the rainbow. You can see it clearly enough, but...
H. Why does Frodo not say what he thinks to Strider, so that Strider does not have to “guess what he has in mind”?
He's still thinking. He's the nominal leader, after all (Strider signed on as a 'guide'). He's about to come up with a good suggestion.
I. Why are there so few draught animals (farm animals for pulling plows and wagons) in Bree? Is it an agricultural community, or not?
No, it's a town, and a walled (or fenced) one, at that. The farming community is outside the walls, and the farmers bring their produce into town on market days. Plenty of animals out there, but impractically far to go around on foot hoping to hire one, as the farms are miles apart.
J. Would Sam have made friends with a goat or an ox the way he did with Bill the Pony?
Absolutely. A pony is easier for readers to relate to, though.
K. Is Merry being a jerk here?
No, he's very practical. They have days ahead with little food; may as well start on a full stomach.
Whew, that was fun.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 15 2008, 5:17am
Post #3 of 30
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Re: Frodo's dreams /About the Black Riders
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Very nice comparison of dreams--- so very interesting to have you compare them side-by-side.
A. What wakes Frodo? What time is it?
I always thought that Frodo becomes more aware and unable to sleep as the danger progresses. By the time that we're in Moria and Frodo has sustained the Morgul wound, he seems to have a sixth sense in sensing things that are not yet quite there yet. Maybe this is a poor comparison but his inability to sleep and when he dreams means that he's not wholly in deep sleep because of all the danger that he is in.
E. How did the Riders coordinate two attacks in the same night almost 100 miles apart? Or did they?
Maybe there were separate crews of Riders that went in split ways?
Question-- Why wouldn't the Riders keep watch of Bree and probably been there to prevent anyone from going in or out of Bree if Frodo had put on the Ring that same evening?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 15 2008, 5:32am
Post #4 of 30
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Yes. According to Appendix B (Tale of years, The Great Years) when the Riders reached the Shire on Sept. 23 they split up, four staying in the Shire and 5 heading towards Bree. Two of the last group were observed separately by Strider and Butterbur. The rest of that group are apparently keeping watch on the East-West Road and the North-South Greenway.
Whew, that was fun.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 15 2008, 4:56pm
Post #5 of 30
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A. What wakes Frodo? What time is it?
I would guess it is the nearby presence of the Nazgul that wakes him, and the time is whenever the Nazgul and the men they employed were doing their work in the middle of the night.
B. When Frodo’s dreams are “again troubled with the noise of wind and of galloping hoofs” – right after reading about the Riders at Buckland - what are we supposed to think?
Perhaps we are supposed to think about the Black Riders, but later we will learn that he might have been dreaming about Gandalf and Shadowfax.
C. When do cocks crow: in the dark, or in the dawn’s early light?
Traditionally, at least, cocks herald the dawn. That is, they crow before the dawn breaks, when it is still dark. Thus ghosts (like the Nazgul?) are warned that it is time to flee the sun. This tradition seems to have originated with the Romans and Hebrews, perhaps because they were closer to the equator and the dawn did not vary so much.
I think most male birds start chirping, crowing, or making other bird noises when they wake up, which often seems to be before dawn, although in Europe and other places far from the equator that may vary based on the length of the night. After all, if you go far enough north in the middle of the summer there is no dawn. I also think people would often wake before dawn if they went to bed at sunset, as they often did in the days before artificial light.
D. Did the Black Riders “force” the windows open and “slash” the bolsters and “tear” the brown mat to pieces? Or was it their lackeys from Bree? What does it seem that we are supposed to think if we skip the close analysis so popular in the Reading Room and are just reading along?
It was their lackeys, although there is a common misperception that it was the Black Riders, reinforced by both Bakshi and Jackson in the movies. You are correct that only a close analysis reveals this fact, and I forget exactly how the analysis goes. I don't think it much matters if readers think it was the Black Riders who did the dirty work; the readers' confusion just mirrors that of the hobbits.
E. How did the Riders coordinate two attacks in the same night almost 100 miles apart? Or did they?
Well, they could call to each other over long distances, although one would think those calls would be heard. We know that some people can communicate by telepathy in Tolkien's world, so the Witch-king could have just said "Attack!" According to Aragorn the Nazgul also employ beasts, and we know that the crebain worked for Saruman, so perhaps they sent a bird. Then again, perhaps it was just a coincidence that they both attacked on the same night.
F. Does anyone ever “raise their hands in horror” outside of adventure romances?
Yes. Many people express strong emotion by raising their hands. In fact, I use the reverse technique to bring emotion into my jury arguments; by finding reasons to raise my hands and extend them from my body, I can bring emotion into my voice. I was taught that technique by an actor.
I would guess that the gesture became a cliche because actors used the technique in staged melodrama, and later in silent films. Actors still use dramatic physical gestures on stage, but tend to tone it down in modern movies, where the camera can zoom in on their faces.
G. Does Frodo believe the Moon is a physical place that one could travel to, except for the impossibility of it being in outer space? Is Frodo thinking of his comic song from the night before?Who first coined the phrase “might as well set out for the Moon”?
In Tolkien's mythology the Moon is physical, although it may not be accurate to call it a place in outer space. Frodo's song could be based loosely on the "real" story of the moon in The Silmarillion -- thus the hobbits are careful to call the Sun "she," and we know from The Silmarillion that a female maia guides the Sun. If Frodo thinks of the Moon and Sun as giant lights in the sky pulled by male and female semi-divine beings, he still could think of them as unattainable objectives, without thinking of them the way we do.
According to Google, Tolkien's exact phrase originated with Tolkien, but there are many traditional phrases that use the Moon as an unattainable objective, and I judge that they far predate modern astronomy. Thus the old rhyme about the cow jumping over the moon is intentionally ridiculous precisely because the moon is unattainable.
However using the moon in this manner may have become more popular in modern times, when more and more of the world became attainable. The more common phrase you might be thinking of is that some place in the world "might as well be the moon." I don't know when that phrase became popular. That particular phrase might be fairly modern.
H. Why does Frodo not say what he thinks to Strider, so that Strider does not have to “guess what he has in mind”?
Wouldn't Frodo's reaction be obvious to anyone, let alone a trained observer like Strider? Did he need to say "I'm crushed by that news!"
I. Why are there so few draught animals (farm animals for pulling plows and wagons) in Bree? Is it an agricultural community, or not?
The farms are outside Bree, not in Bree.
J. Would Sam have made friends with a goat or an ox the way he did with Bill the Pony?
Maybe, although the narrator implies that Bill is special. It would have to be a special goat or ox. But would anyone use a goat as a pack animal? Maybe Butterbur is thinking of donkeys and mules, as well as oxen.
'Yes,' said Strider reluctantly, 'you had better do that. I am afraid we shall have to try to get one pony at least. But so ends all hope of starting early, and slipping away quietly! We might as well have blown a horn to announce our departure. That was part of their plan, no doubt.'
'There is one crumb of comfort,' said Merry, 'and more than a crumb, I hope: we can have breakfast while we wait - and sit down to it. Let's get hold of Nob!'
K. Is Merry being a jerk here?
No. Why would you think he is being a jerk?
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 15 2008, 5:15pm
Post #6 of 30
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Impossible things before breakfast
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A. What wakes Frodo? What time is it?
Frodo seems to be a light sleeper. He wakes to overhear Aragorn's and Gandalf's conversation about Moria, for example. Here I think he's perhaps disturbed by whatever has brought Strider to full alertness. Maybe it's the attack on the hobbits' rooms, or on the stable. Is Strider aware of the attack, I wonder? Probably all he cares about is that the attackers don't come as far as the room he's guarding. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he was quite aware about the attack on the hobbits' rooms before he led them to look the next morning.
B. When Frodo’s dreams are “again troubled with the noise of wind and of galloping hoofs” – right after reading about the Riders at Buckland - what are we supposed to think?
That Frodo is dreaming a true dream again? Frodo woke first "in the early night", which would be about when Fatty "stared out into the gloom", after he had felt too fearful to rest or go to bed. I'm not sure whether the two cock-crows can be used as a second time-check, though. As you say the cock at Crickhollow seems to be crowing while it's still "dark without moon or stars", while the first light of day has arrived when Frodo hears the cock crow in Bree. If this is meant to be the same time, it's pretty vague.
C. When do cocks crow: in the dark, or in the dawn’s early light?
I've always heard that they start to crow when they first become aware that the sky is lightening - when it still seems dark to us. But they keep on crowing after that, so perhaps Frodo was sleeping deeply when the cock first crowed in the yard at Bree, and was wakened when it crowed again later. On the other hand, the two cock-crows do give an impression of a shared experience - but perhaps that's all it's meant to be, an impression.
D. Did the Black Riders “force” the windows open and “slash” the bolsters and “tear” the brown mat to pieces? Or was it their lackeys from Bree? What does it seem that we are supposed to think if we skip the close analysis so popular in the Reading Room and are just reading along?
Hmm. More vagueness. Could this be deliberate I wonder? 
E. How did the Riders coordinate two attacks in the same night almost 100 miles apart? Or did they?
With the amount of vagueness in this account, it seems pretty difficult to know. There are enough Riders to do both, though, especially if the bolster-slashing was carried out by ruffians, as I think we have to assume after thinking about the options. At this point, we don't know how many Riders there are. Strider does, but he doesn't tell us (or the hobbits). So, like the hobbits, we're still struggling with a very large amount of ignorance, which makes the Riders all the scarier.
F. Does anyone ever “raise their hands in horror” outside of adventure romances?
In scenes of social comedy, perhaps? I can imagine Elizabeth Bennett's mother doing it at the thought of some petty calamity. Butterbur is still a comic character himself, even at this horrifying moment - he may be upset about the attack, but he's just as upset about "good bolsters ruined and all!"
G. Does Frodo believe the Moon is a physical place that one could travel to, except for the impossibility of it being in outer space? Is Frodo thinking of his comic song from the night before? Who first coined the phrase “might as well set out for the Moon”?
He doesn't believe in outer space, but he does believe the Moon is a physical place. So does Sam, who imagined Frodo "climb[ing] to the Moon" when talking to Gildor's elves. I suppose he believes in the Moon as described in the stories he knows (including the comic song of the night before, as you say) - perhaps hobbit-sized echoes of the legend of Tilion, who guides the Moon through the sky in the stories of the Elves.
H. Why does Frodo not say what he thinks to Strider, so that Strider does not have to “guess what he has in mind”?
Frodo's not a defeatist, I guess. Crushed though he is, he doesn't voice his thoughts aloud to discourage everyone else. This might be one of the clues that allows Strider to "weigh up" the hobbits' "strength and courage."
I. Why are there so few draught animals (farm animals for pulling plows and wagons) in Bree? Is it an agricultural community, or not?
Bree's a town. I expect it would take a while to get out to the farms where the draught animals are kept. (Actually I think draft animals pull plows. Draught animals pull ploughs. )
J. Would Sam have made friends with a goat or an ox the way he did with Bill the Pony?
Only if it got to be as good at "almost talking" as Bill does!
'There is one crumb of comfort,' said Merry, 'and more than a crumb, I hope: we can have breakfast while we wait - and sit down to it. Let's get hold of Nob!'
K. Is Merry being a jerk here?
He's being a hobbit. Or perhaps, he's being an Englishman of the kind Tolkien likes to model the hobbits on. Calm and practical in the face of danger. Stiff upper lip and all that. Of all the hobbits, Merry most encapsulates this attitude.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 15 2008, 6:01pm
Post #7 of 30
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A. What wakes Frodo? What time is it?
I imagine another possibility (beyond the idea that Frodo senses the Nazgûl, or that he is simply prescient in other ways) is that the Ring itself was feeling the probing thoughts of the Nazgûl. Perhaps it was "struggling" — getting heavier, pulling at its chain, and so forth. That could definitely jostle Frodo out of slumber.
F. Does anyone ever “raise their hands in horror” outside of adventure romances?
I think they do, especially more rustic folk. It's probably an unconscious (or superstitious) gesture to ward off danger. Such gestures might be especially common in Bree.
G. [..] Who first coined the phrase “might as well set out for the Moon”?
I don't know who first coined this; I can't find anything really close in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable or a few other, similar works that I checked. Perhaps somebody with a copy of the OED could do better. But I shouldn't wonder that Tolkien (also) had H.G. Wells's The First Men in the Moon (1901) in that back of his mind. Tolkien read it (and other works of Edwardian scientifiction), though I don't think we know precisely when. He mentions that novel explicitly in The Notion Club Papers, written while he was working on The Lord of the Rings. And Wells's novel made quite a splash in the first half of the 20th century. Of course, Wells had his own sources, going all the way back to William Thomson's The Man in the Moon, or Travels into the Lunar Regions (1783), inter alia.
And Tolkien may even have been his own source. Remember the trip to the moon in Roverandom, which Tolkien wrote a number of years previously. I always found his solution for how to get to the moon quite lovely.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 15 2008, 6:18pm
Post #8 of 30
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When Chanticleer crows, beware the jaws of the Fox
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Yes. Cocks crow a lot. Don't live near them if you can help it. Crowing cocks are useful to humans (on rare occasions) as markers in an otherwise featureless night ("A cock crowed, and then I noticed...").
This jogged something else in the back of my brain. Elizabeth, you show how people often assume a correlative relationship (even leading to omens and superstitions), even though this is really no more than an ad (or post) hoc ergo propter hoc — "with (or after) this, therefore because of this". Unsophistocated people, like the Hobbits and Men of Bree and the Shire, would have been very susceptible to such seemingly portentous signs.
This reminds me (hence the subject line) of the traditional tale of Chanticleer the Rooster and Reynard the Fox, as retold by Chaucer in The Nun's Priest's Tale. This tale connects the cock's crow with the post hoc fallacy and throws portentous dreams into the mix as well. I'm not suggesting Tolkien is explicitly riffing on Chaucer's comic tale here in "A Knife in the Dark", but it could have been so internalized as to have thrown a litter fertilizer onto the leaf-mould. And surely a coincidence, but one that makes me smile: Christopher Tolkien (with Nevill Coghill) edited an edition of The Nun's Priest's Tale in 1959.
Was the talking fox in "Three Is Company" Reynard himself?
Connections, connections, connections ...
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Jan 15 2008, 9:10pm
Post #9 of 30
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I'd be interested in an explanation of why it was an inside job
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I guess one reading would be that the windows were forced open from the inside (rather than smashed inward from the outside), and one of the Southerners is gone in the morning. I'm not sure that is the only way to read things though. For example, the window could have been pried from the outside, or the Southerner's job could have been simply to open a window the attackers (like the hit on Michael Corleone at the start of the The Godfather, Part 2). The fact that no one heard the commotion in the Hobbit's rooms tends to point to otherworldly stealth on the part of the attackers, but it could have just been that there was so much wind or other commotion that no one heard.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 15 2008, 9:48pm
Post #10 of 30
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"Inside" Bree, not inside the Pony.
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The theory is that it was living men not wraiths who burgled the Inn. To me, this makes the most sense, and in fact Tolkien had it in mind when he first wrote the chapter, as shown in his drafts. Later, when writing out the "Hunt for the Ring" notes, he changed his mind, and wrote that it was wraiths; this was revealed in 2005. But I think that's a mistake.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 14-20 for "A Knife in the Dark".
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 16 2008, 1:40am
Post #11 of 30
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Rome is about the same latitude as New York City, and Israel is on par with South Carolina, give or take a state. So although the climate did not vary so much in those ancient places, their hours of daylight did. I've wondered how they kept their time-divisions even.
The basis for the general belief that it was non-Nazgûl who did the deed is found in the previous chapter:
'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?' 'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too.'
Even in the beginning drafts, Tolkien assumed it was ruffians (RotS p. 162, after Merry bolted back after seeing a Black Rider speak to someone behind a hedge):
'Don't go to your rooms!' said Trotter at once. 'That must have been Bill Ferny - for his hole is at the east end of Bree; and it is more than likely that he will have found out which rooms you have got. They have small windows looking back west and the outside walls are not very thick. We'll all stay here, bar the door and window, and take turns to watch. But first we had better fetch your baggage - and arrange the beds!'
Hmm...lawyers get trained by actors? But I've also had voice training, so I know how well that arm-movement technique works!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 7:05am
Post #12 of 30
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Tolkien c. 1955: "The Inn attacked by the two Riders in early hours before dawn."
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And he goes on: "Crickhollow attacked at about the same time."
That comes from the "Hunt for the Ring" notes that Hammond and Scull published in 2005. But I think Tolkien was misremembering what he had in mind as he actually wrote LotR. As shown by dernwyn in this thread, and by Elizabeth in the thread below (linking to dernwyn again in early 2005), Tolkien decided c. 1940 that Ferny and the Southerner burgled the hobbits' rooms, and nothing in the published drafts for LotR contradicts that idea. And the text of LotR itself supports that interpretation, with Strider's comment that the Riders would not "openly attack a house where there are lights and many people". Now I suppose it could be argued that merely breaking into the hobbits' rooms via the windows is not an open attack, but really: wouldn't the Riders know at once, on entering the Room, that the Ring was not there? In fact, they would know that no living souls were in that room: Strider says later in this chapter that they "smell the blood of living things". So why bother slashing the beds? And are the Riders really the type to climb through windows? That's not how they behave at Crickhollow. Note that the Bakshi film has them teleport into the room, and Jackson has them burst in through the front doors, in both cases, I think, because the filmmakers couldn't picture the Nazgûl as secondfirst-storey operators.
No, squire is right: as written, we're meant to assume that the Black Riders have done this --that's one of the reasons for opening with the events at Crickhollow, to throw us off-- but the attack happened earlier that night, when Frodo woke to find Strider alert with gleaming eyes; and it was living men, knifing what they took to be sleeping hobbits they could barely make out in the dark, then discovering they had been fooled and angrily ripping the room to tatters. Had they been successful, there would have been no need to chase off the ponies: they devised that plan only when they had failed, and as Elizabeth has perceptively realized, that contributes to Frodo's later dream of running hoofs. (I also doubt it was the men not the Riders who chased off the ponies, as animals are said to go into hysterics when the Riders approach, and that would have woken somebody.)
As to why Tolkien wrote this bit of misdirection, I don't know, and it seems Tolkien himself was fooled when he revisited the text in the 1950s, and wrote the "Hunt for the Ring" material. It wouldn't be the only occasion: Bilbo's song of "Eärendil" as published in LotR is not the last version that Tolkien composed as he wrote the story but a draft along the way; the last versions were misplaced, however, and only found by him after LotR was published. When that happened, Tolkien assumed the later versions were the drafts, and wrote out some notes trying to explain how they preceded what was published.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 7:17am
Post #13 of 30
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Maybe they don't use horses and ponies for draft work?
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Could the Breelanders mostly use oxen for plowing?
As for other animals, horses or ponies for draught or what not, there are very few in Bree...
I read Butterbur's "animals" there as merely a contrast to the earlier "riding-ponies", and including only the subsequent "horses or ponies". He wouldn't think to includ oxen in that, as irrelevant to the present conversation.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 8:13am
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Not necessarily mutually exclusive.
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There could well have been a Rider or two in Bree supervising the skulduggery. But I'm quite convinced that both the break-in and animal dispersal were the work of Ferney et al., based both on the logic you describe and Strider's prediction in the last chapter.
Since Tolkien obviously waffled on this from draft to draft, it's small wonder that he mis-remembered which way it ended up.
Whew, that was fun.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 9:52am
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I have just argued against this theory in the thread below
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And answered there one or two of the reasons you gave. I would be happy if you answered my post there - but I'm sure you'll get there sometime (as you always do), so I needn't ask.
I'm glad to read that most of your evidence is internal (i.e. from the book) - it puts us on a more equal footing.
And I don't think the inn was raided very early - appendix B reads: "September 30. Crickhollow and the Inn at Bree raided in the early hours". At least at the time he wrote the appendix, he grouped them together, definitely in the same time.
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 9:54am
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Was Bill Ferny a hobbit in the draft?
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Why does he live in a hole?
And where can I read the drafts for myself?
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 9:55am
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The Southrener is not gone in the Morning
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He is Hiding in Ferny's house
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 1:18pm
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Why didn't Butterbur notice anything?
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Or Bob or Nob? Butterbur and his helpers were on notice and had promised to protect the inn, so how did anyone get by them? I suggest that the Nazgul could have had something to do with that. Whatever made Merry swoon in the street could have made Butterbur swoon as well. I have always thought that ordinary men must have stabbed the bolsters, but the Nazgul could have helped them gain entry. Tolkien's notes are meant to keep track of the movements of the Nazgul, and two of them are involved in the break-in, but that doesn't mean they weren't assisted by the Southerner and Ferny and whoever else. That way everything can be consistent.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 4:04pm
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"The History of Middle-earth" volumes 6-9 and 12.
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I don't remember about Fern(e)y --it does sound from this like he was a hobbit-- but dernwyn can answer with specifics. The drafts for The Lord of the Rings were edited by Christopher Tolkien and published in five The History of Middle-earth volumes:
VI. The Return of the Shadow
VII. The Treason of Isengard
VIII. The War of the Ring
IX. Sauron Defeated
XII. The Peoples of Middle-earth
Other volumes in the HoMe series concern the "Silmarillion" texts, plus a couple unfinished time-travel novels that connect to Númenor. One of these, "The Notion Club Papers", actually takes up about two-thirds of Sauron Defeated, only the first portion of which finishes off LotR. And the LotR material in The Peoples of Middle-earth only takes up about the first half of that volume, and concerns only the writing of the Appendices.
I believe everything pertaining to this chapter is found The Return of the Shadow and The Treason of Isengard.
It's worth emphasizing that these are edited drafts, presenting what Christopher Tolkien feels is most interesting or necessary to understanding the writing of LotR. There is a good deal of additional text relating to the LotR drafts that he omits; most of this consists of minor changes to the texts that might nonetheless be quite revealing. This material can be found in the Tolkien archives at Marquette University in Milwaukee.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 4:15pm
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The Appendices were composed at the same time as the "Hunt for the Ring".
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Quite late. Possibly after FotR was published. Hammond and Scull write that Tolkien may have intended to include some version of "The Hunt for the Ring" in the Appendices, whose drafts are very confusing. But he never wrote a consistent final version of "The Hunt for the Ring", as will be readily seen by looking at the notes in Unfinished Tales.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 4:21pm
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"'No black man shall pass my doors' ... 'I must go and bar the doors' ... "'Good night to you,' said Nob, and went off to take his part in the watch on the doors."
And it was the windows near the back of the Inn, not the doors at the front that were forced. Possibly that is not so noisy that Butterbur and Nob would have noticed. Getting the horses out, however, as they would probably have had to go from the stables (in the courtyard?) past the front door to be driven off, does seem likely to have aroused Butterbur. You have an interesting idea.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 17 2008, 6:33pm
Post #22 of 30
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I can't locate anywhere in Chapter VIII of RotS that specifically states his race when we first meet up with Ferney, spelled at that point "Ferny". But Butterbur was a Hobbit originally; and when the Hobbits are introduced around, there is no distinguishing whether any of the "botanical" surnames, including his, belong to Men or to Hobbits.
So the original intention may have been to place him among those "Outsider" Hobbits who were "no better than tramps"!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 17 2008, 9:25pm
Post #23 of 30
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It's great to get this right!
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Jan 18 2008, 12:37pm
Post #24 of 30
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... for the first time, as I read this section:
'Can't anything be done, Mr. Butterbur?' asked Frodo. 'Can't we get a couple of ponies in the village, or even one just for the baggage? I don't suppose we could hire them, but we might be able to buy them,' he added, doubtfully, wondering if he could afford it.
Earlier it was mentioned that Frodo "had brought only a little money with him". Now as I reread this paragraph, I realized: this is the first time in Frodo's life that he's ever had to wonder or worry about affording to buy something.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Jan 18 2008, 12:43pm
Post #25 of 30
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My own thought was that the parenthetical comment in "He had hardly closed his eyes all night (so he said), but he had never heard a sound" was intended as a bit of narrative sarcasm: a hint of "Yeah, Butterbur says he never slept a wink. And he said he would find someone to carry Gandalf's letter to Frodo within a day or two." There's a suggestion that Butterbur's good intention to keep the hobbits safe lasted exactly until he sat down in a comfortable chair. That doesn't explain why Nob and Bob never heard anything, though.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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