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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Pretty much confirmation that Bolg's design has changed
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tarasaurus
Rohan


Nov 30 2013, 6:22pm

Post #26 of 49 (322 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

the 'new George Lucas" has more to do with making the Hobbit a trilogy (and partly for making them after LotR) as Lucas did with Star Wars.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 8:01pm

Post #27 of 49 (282 views)
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It has to do with a couple of things... [In reply to] Can't Post

...over-use of CGI being one of them.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 8:10pm

Post #28 of 49 (280 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I disagree that these CG Orcs are any kind of improvement. In fact, I think they are big a step back.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 8:15pm

Post #29 of 49 (278 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do get some solace out of the fact that not ALL of the Orcs are CGI. The Orc in Thranduil's hall looked great. And there are plenty of pictures of non-CG Orcs from filming, although who knows how many of them will make it into the films.

But it does piss me off that Bolg is probably now going to be a mo-capped abomination like his dad, when the design they had before was great.


Escapist
Gondor


Nov 30 2013, 8:21pm

Post #30 of 49 (261 views)
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I'm curious. [In reply to] Can't Post

I find a measurement of the amount of CGI used in and of itself to be a curious method of judging a film or its director. How much CGI is the right amount of CGI?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 8:44pm

Post #31 of 49 (274 views)
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Just for clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

The figure is actually a gaming miniature (if a high-end one). No one should get this expecting something the size of a statuette. The figure is probably at something like 25mm scale.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 8:49pm

Post #32 of 49 (251 views)
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The reason the comparison applies in this case... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is the fact that Lucas made the Stormtroopers CG in the prequels, instead of just using guys in Stormtrooper suits, while Jackson did the same to the Orcs. In other words, using CGI when it isn't necessary. IMO, it is a case of "fixing" something that isn't broken.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 30 2013, 8:55pm)


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 30 2013, 10:19pm

Post #33 of 49 (217 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

Then again, large numbers of orcs in LotR were CG as well. I think it works very well for wide-shots of massive armies. Same goes for formations of clones and droids in the Star Wars prequels.

What I'm mildly disappointed by is reliance on CG even for close-up shots of individual orcs interacting with actual actors. While this works pretty well when a great deal of time is given for perfecting the CG model (Gollum, the Goblin King, etc) it's painful when rushed or "painted over" a live-action shot which was originally filmed with an actor in mind. This is why I think many of the Azog shots at Azanulbizar look kind of forced: they had to match the CG onto a live-action performance already filmed rather than constructing the scene with the CG already in mind. By contrast, the CG of Azog in the Out of the Frying Pan sequence fits much more with the scene (even though I hate what they ended up doing to that scene all the same).

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 30 2013, 11:57pm

Post #34 of 49 (202 views)
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Even though i loved pretty much every one of the [In reply to] Can't Post

orcs and goblins in LotR, i actually wouldn't mind an all CG orc if it was designed well. And even though i hate almost everything about Azog, his CGI isn't what bothers me; it's the poor design and performance of the character that i reject. I just think that all the orcs and goblins in AUJ were lackluster and forgettable. And it has nothing to do with CGI or prosthetics; it has to do with uninspired design and lack of character.

In AUJ, the orcs are just plain boring.


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Dec 1 2013, 12:00am)


Carnivoran
The Shire

Dec 1 2013, 2:07am

Post #35 of 49 (192 views)
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Here is my opinion..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Azogs design is great. He is the archetypal powerful orc. I also think his performance was good as well.

Where I have a problem is with the fact that he was clearly CGI. I think Gollum was far more polished than Azog. Whenever he was in a scene, I found you were taken out of the movie a bit.

Again, I don't think it was a poor design, but an unpolished CGI. I disliked the Great Goblin far more.

As for the original Bolg, I think he looks like a clown with his dwarf beards, and a bit cartoonish from all the colors and his giant bludgeon.

Having said all that, I think the variety of opinions shows that what PJ did was not horrible. It simply comes down to taste.


peterLF
Rivendell

Dec 1 2013, 4:32am

Post #36 of 49 (175 views)
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This Bolg design might throw people off [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I too wonder what is left of this particular 'Orc General', cos I personally loved that design!


I dig it as well, but I still support the decision to change it... The book referring to things like bloody fur, metal things in the head and the like is very in-depth, and here sticking to the book would visually undermine the link between Azog and Bolg as being related (pretty tough to spot Bolg being a pale orc when almost none of his skin is showing).


I take it as the biggest hint that this design has been scrapped, the fact that the design is seen fighting Dwalin right after Thorin cuts off Azogs arm in the Battle of Azunulbizar flashback. Only sporting a replaced head, and less red color. Same exact armor though.


Orc Berserker
Bree


Dec 1 2013, 12:29pm

Post #37 of 49 (137 views)
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I really need to see the new Bolg design... [In reply to] Can't Post

Before I agree with the decision to change it.

After redesigning Azog, I understand your point about Bolg's hair being a bit strange, but I hope that they've kept some of the details from the old design - The blood 'war paint', the metal head-plates, the mace - Cos they made him a really unique orc compared to what we've seen before, and I really like the overall look of the Gundabad Orcs. I think it is important to have them look different from Isengard Uruks and Mordor Orcs.


Orc Berserker
Bree


Dec 1 2013, 12:41pm

Post #38 of 49 (140 views)
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I totally agree with this [In reply to] Can't Post

I think CG doubles work best for wide shots and action scenes. Look at what they've done with the Dwarves... Most of the action scenes involving them were all CG doubles, and I didn't find that SO obvious that it took me out of the film.
They did the same thing with the Uruk Hai at Helms Deep. For most of those wide action shots it's all CG Uruks, but then on the wall they had real stunt men in costume, and that worked brilliantly!

I hope that the Battle of 5 Armies isn't going to be just an orgy of CG characters fighting each other. Obviously for the wide shots they will (and I do love those wide battle shots) but the fact that they spent quite a few weeks in pick-ups filming it hopefully means that there will still be a lot of close ups with the real actors fighting real stuntmen.

On that note, I can't wait to see what Bolg's Bodyguard will look like!


BalrogTrainer
Rivendell

Dec 1 2013, 2:24pm

Post #39 of 49 (119 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't get why so many people need something to actually physically be there on screen in order for it to be totally believable for them Unimpressed ... especially in Fantasy. Not every sentient species should have the exact same general physical frame as we humans; that's just not realistic in terms of other-worldliness. Thus, CG is the best current tool for that kind of thing.


emre43
Lorien

Dec 1 2013, 4:34pm

Post #40 of 49 (113 views)
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Completely agree. I think people look far too deply into scenes; I can't even tell when something is CGI or not and others say it is obviously CG. I just sit back, watch the film and enjoy it. Others spend time complaining that things are too CG; beats me [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I just don't get why so many people need something to actually physically be there on screen in order for it to be totally believable for them Unimpressed ... especially in Fantasy. Not every sentient species should have the exact same general physical frame as we humans; that's just not realistic in terms of other-worldliness. Thus, CG is the best current tool for that kind of thing.



vinsanity
The Shire

Dec 1 2013, 5:19pm

Post #41 of 49 (108 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

"I just don't get why so many people need something to actually physically be there on screen in order for it to be totally believable for them Unimpressed ..."

Because... it's really there! and not a pixel later added in post-production. how much believability can it get better than that?...

"Not every sentient species should have the exact same general physical frame as we humans;"

But Orcs are descended from Elves who are humans, like Saruman says to Lurtz in FOTR, so in a way they are humans, or have human structure and physic like we do. Of course Gollum, Shelob, the spiders, the trolls, Smaug, or even the wide shots of the orcs, uruks, goblins had to be CGI, nobody argues that. But just like Salmacis81 says, why fix something that wasn't broken, the orcs prosthetics we're some of the best things of the LOTR movies (had they been CGI like PJ would have liked, today those effects would have been dated big time unlike the prosthetics or animatronics that barely aged, look at the xenomorphs in Aliens, they still look awesome almost 28 years later or the T-Rex in the first JP)


Orc Berserker
Bree


Dec 1 2013, 5:48pm

Post #42 of 49 (99 views)
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Performers and Artists [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't mean to sound like i'm complaining all the time - although it probably looks that way...

I loved the LOTR films and I loved The Hobbit AUJ. I thought Azog was brilliant (design and performance) and the goblins were good fun too. I'm also one of the few people I know that loved PJ's King Kong. So i'm not completely against CGI when it's obviously necessary.

But when it comes to Orcs specifically, I personally think they look great when played by good actors in make-up. And because they are humanoid race, there's no reason why they can't be played by humans in prosthetics and heavy make up. Take Stephen Ure for example - he played Grishnak and Gorbag in TTT and ROTK and they were both orcs with great personalities that really came through on screen. And Lawrance Makoare as Lurtz and Gothmog was brilliant as well. In fact the rumours that Bolg will now be played by Lawrance is actually great news, cos even if he is mo-capped, Lawrance's performance will hopefully still come through as with Andy Serkis and Manu Bennett. But I still feel bad for Conan Stevens if he's been dropped completely.

Like I said before I think nostalgia certainly has a lot to do with it. Just remember that when CGI replaces practical effects your basically putting hundreds of artists out of a job. I just hope it's a craft that doesn't disappear entirely. It's already happening in Hollywood, and I'd hate to see Weta Workshop fall by the wayside. As an audience member I totally agree with the point about it not making any difference to me when I see the film for the first time, i'm too busy enjoying myself to scrutinise. But as a person with an interest in filmaking and creative arts, I feel bad for the guys whose work will be no longer used.

I think PJ is right that CGI allows him to do more things with the orcs. It certainly worked with the goblins. I think it works really well when CGI and prosthetics collaborate, and they end up using both. The battle of Moria used both and that was incredible. Obviously most of it was CGI but you could tell some of them were real and really feel the impact of those fights.

At the end of the day, whatever helps PJ to make these films as brilliant as possible can only be a good thing. And I do love the stuff that Weta Digital are doing, but I do feel bad for all the artists at Weta Workshop whose work is being replaced and who are now basically a dying breed (although it's probably not as extreme as that yet!)

All that said, i'm still super hyped about the next two films and can't wait to see them. When you see me 'complaining' about this stuff, it really is just nitpicking, cos I love everything about these movies really.


Orc Berserker
Bree


Dec 1 2013, 6:02pm

Post #43 of 49 (99 views)
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Completely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

There have been some amazing SFX over the years that still hold up the test of time - the Xeno's from Alien and Aliens being some of the best, compared to the awfully dated CGI used in the later Alien 3 and 4.

Look at the Predator from the 1987 film with Arnie - absolute class. In fact that was so good, that when they made the recent Predators movie they still used guys in suits cos they look so awesome. You look at a Predator's head and one could argue they're even less 'human' than Orcs...

The Stan Winston Studio in the 80's and 90's were making awesome practical effects, in some of the best movies from those decades, and they still look awesome now. Unfortunatly I don't think they get used so much now, Most modern filmakers prefer CGI, which can be a bit ropey, although in recent years it has improved drastically.

I think PJ's decision to go mostly CGI has a lot to do with filming in 3D HFR... That's also the reason there are no Big-atures in the Hobbit films. He himself has expressed regret at that, but it just doesn't hold up as well in 3D...


hutch
Rohan


Dec 1 2013, 6:51pm

Post #44 of 49 (86 views)
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How much is too much? [In reply to] Can't Post

Using it when you don't need it. Check the difference of PJ in late 90s who said using too much CG was wrong and that it should only be used to fill in the seams, with PJ of today lamenting how he wishes he could go back and re-do LOTR with an abundance of CG. What gives? Mad

Save the Texas Prairie Chicken.


hutch
Rohan


Dec 1 2013, 6:55pm

Post #45 of 49 (86 views)
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I don't know what the clowns looks like around your town [In reply to] Can't Post

but around here, certainly not blood thirsty cannibals...wait...Sly

Save the Texas Prairie Chicken.


hutch
Rohan


Dec 1 2013, 6:56pm

Post #46 of 49 (86 views)
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I think Azog and the Bolg design look very simiar [In reply to] Can't Post

almost as if they put this whole getup over Azog. Not hard to spot the similarities at all.

Save the Texas Prairie Chicken.


hutch
Rohan


Dec 1 2013, 7:05pm

Post #47 of 49 (85 views)
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realistic? otherworldlieness? [In reply to] Can't Post

say what?Angelic

anyway there is an intangible and visceral reaction to prosthetics. You get none of that from CG (although, just to be a contradictory I'm sure someone will say the opposite). There's just no 'pop' with CG. Go watch any Romero zombie film using practical effects and watch the ones using CG effects and tell me you can't feel the difference. Nothing CG is impressive, because intuitively we know that what we're seeing is just the result of some people spending to much time at a computer screen. Big CG effects are yawn magnets. I disagree with the ENTIRE premise of CG being as effective as practical effects. It just isn't true not matter what the digital lobby says.

Save the Texas Prairie Chicken.


hutch
Rohan


Dec 1 2013, 7:08pm

Post #48 of 49 (85 views)
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Yeah CG allowed PJ to film at HFR and create less interesting looking orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

all at the expense of the sanity of quality actors like Ian McKellen. Yeesh.

Save the Texas Prairie Chicken.


Lio
Lorien


Dec 1 2013, 9:31pm

Post #49 of 49 (75 views)
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I guess this also confirms that Bolg will indeed be in DoS? [In reply to] Can't Post

If he isn't, I don't think they would have taken the trouble to rename the figure.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, there's been speculation that the CGI Orc in the latest vlog (played by Lawrence Makoare?) is the new Bolg [click here for a pic]. At this point I'm 90% sure of it myself, and really looking forward to see what the finished design looks like. Smile (But I'm also one of those people that like CGI Azog.)

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!

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