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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Did Azog and Bolg overreach and damage Sauron's larger design?

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 6:25am

Post #1 of 21 (799 views)
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Did Azog and Bolg overreach and damage Sauron's larger design? Can't Post

Azog commits an offense against the heir to the Eldest of the Dwarven Forefathers, sparking a near genocidal war by the dwarves against the orcs, clearing most of the orcs from The Misty mountains, culminating in the deaths of some of the fiercest orc warriors of The Third Age, Azog and his guard, and it would have ended in the Dwarves reclaiming Moria, if not for the continued presence of the Demon who originally slew Durin and drove the Dwarves into an exile.

Bolg leads another massive army into a battle that, had he waited, would have played out with many of Sauron's foes combating against one another and doing much of his work for him. Bolg and his march provide Gandalf with just the foil he needs to show up in the nick of time and entirely divert the attentions, intentions and focus of Elves, Dwarves and Men from fighting each other, to warring with the Orcs in a battle which saw some two thirds of the goblins-orcs of the North at that time eradicated.

And what happens absent those events? The Fellowship probably does not dare to enter Moria, knowing it to be home to an established orc kingdom in the tens of thousands, rather than the, at best, thousand or so orcs milling around in there at the time of THe War of The Ring. NOT passing through Moria means no battle between Gandalf and the Balrog, which in turn leaves Sauron with all the elements and aides he would have needed (save Smaug) to launch a PROPER war in The North. Instead of dividing his Dol Guldur orcs to attack Lothlorien and Thranduil, he can focus the majority of the Dol Guldur orcs against Thranduil, sending the entire host of Moria against Lothlorien, possibly led by a Balrog, the only being in Middle-Earth aside from Sauron who would have had a plausible willingness and ability to breach the fences and defences of Galadriel (the Dol Guldur Nazgul might even have been willing to approach Lothlorien, if they had a legitimate Valaraukar to go ahead of them).

Further North, the armies of Erebor, Dale and The Greenwood Elves, diminished by a war with one another in which the orcs took no part and lost no warriors, could be beset by the full numbers of Bolg and company. Its a much darker picture than what eventually happens, and it would likely have been far different, had Azog and Bolg been a little less self motivated.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 6:54am

Post #2 of 21 (398 views)
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excellent post [In reply to] Can't Post

As usual Wink

And it was wonderfully thought out. Turns out Sauron isn't the best at securing his minions now, is he? Tongue

Azog, Bolg, Saruman....all royally screwed him....

Oopsie Evil

At least it helped our heroes Cool

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 6:56am

Post #3 of 21 (374 views)
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Thank you! Pleased [In reply to] Can't Post

that you enjoyed it. I thought it a matter worth consideration. lol. Tis so hard to find good help, even for a mighty, evil Maiar.

In Reply To
As usual Wink

And it was wonderfully thought out. Turns out Sauron isn't the best at securing his minions now, is he? Tongue

Azog, Bolg, Saruman....all royally screwed him....

Oopsie Evil

At least it helped our heroes Cool


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 30 2013, 10:48am

Post #4 of 21 (326 views)
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In the end... [In reply to] Can't Post

... all comes back to the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age... or even the defeat of Morgoth before that.

Each time Evil scatters and Sauron has a harder and harder time to gather his armies and power.

Those and all the other victories of the past were not as "fruitless " as some may have feared.

It is kind of a nice notion - and actually quite brilliant - by the Professor that despite the many downfalls over the millenias, all the efforts by the Free Peoples led somewhere in the end.

Because you are right, every single Orc, goblin and demon who was not in the way of the Company of Oakenshield or the Fellowship, or any of its supporters, was a help - and a problem for the Dark Lord.

But especially Bolg after the Battle of the Five Armies.... Sauron might have felt like resurrecting him just to torture him back to death again after that failure.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


ThorinIIIStonehelm
The Shire


Nov 30 2013, 12:52pm

Post #5 of 21 (293 views)
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A quite brilliant post AinurOlorin... [In reply to] Can't Post

It shows the selfish nature of Orcs but also it seems to highlight an unwillingness to wait? Are Azog and Bolg simply not prepared to go into league with Sauron in the first place? Is this an example of straightforward disobedience or is it simply pure ignorance and revealing a not-so-clever orc race that physically can't see the larger picture?
In the films, PJ seems to represent the Orcs as being of a brutish and predictable nature that just want to go in all guns blazing as it were, wanting a fight but not really caring what the fight is for most of the time. Are Orcs simply stupid? I've found that Orcs are portrayed in the books with more intelligence than the film renderings.
I'll be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
Smile


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 30 2013, 1:02pm

Post #6 of 21 (283 views)
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Isn't that the problem with the Evil? Here's a guide "How to rule the world as a Dark Lord" [In reply to] Can't Post

Part 1: Your goal
As a Dark Lord you usually seek ultimate power and control over all other beings. Making yourself the ruler of the world and everything right? This is the thing that Sauron wants too. He wants to control everything... order. Becoming a godlike being as you like.

Part 2: Your minions or quantity rather than quality

To achieve this goal you'll need lots of loyal minions and servants. But there's your problem aswell. If you are a Dark Lord you're not interested in democracy so you're minions have to serve you. Usually Dark Lords rule through fear... his minions are less powerful than him and serve him because they fear his anger and strenght. But is it enough to have only dumb servants? Not really... especially not if you're challenged like Sauron. You need at least a couple of servants with something like a brain because you can't trust an army of mindless Orcs or Trolls... because your enemies (Elves, Men, Dwarves) aren't that silly... they're strong and also very smart.. especially the Elves. That's why you need leaders like the Witch-King, Saruman, the Mouth or Azog and Bolg who follow you but also can give orders on their own. You can't be everywhere at once.

Part 3: The problems with dumb minions
Just face it... they're dumb... they can't read, they can't talk correctly, they can't move in daylight. Just send a pack of 200 Orcs to kill a couple of 13 Dwarves or a group of 9 people... do they succeed? No! Why? Because they're dumb. You need tens of thousands of them to have at least a small advantage but even then... it's not certain that you'll win. And if there's no smart servant to control them... they kill each other. You don't believe me? Perhaps you should pay a visit to your Cirith Ungol watchtower? They follow you because they fear your power or because... they're dumb. But they have no idea what your plans are about. You can't talk to them about strategies or greater plans for the future because they won't understand... but they don't need to. As long as they serve you.

Part 4: The problems with smart servants
Most of them don't follow you because they want you to become the ruler of the world. They do it for themselves because they want to become more powerful aswell... sometimes they even seek to overpower you later... I'm thinking of a certain multi-colored wizard ;-) But you need them because your enemies do also have commanders who are far more powerful than hundreds of your usual minions. I'm thinking of a certain Elf-Witch. You also need them to bring order to the dumb scum while you have more important business to deal with... but aware... these smart servants have their own will and only serve you because they see you as their way to power. But sometimes... they make mistakes... well because you're on the side of evil they always make mistakes. For the most part they're arrogant, egoistic, narcisstic and mostly they fail with their goal in sight.

Part 5: Do it yourself

Forget everything you've read. Do it yourself. In all big storys the evil Dark Lord fails because his minions fail. Emperor Palpatine died because he trusted his servant Darth Vader (terrible mistake), Lord Voldemort died because he believed in Narcissa Malfoy when she told him Harry Potter was dead... that an because everyone of them was arrogant ;-)


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 30 2013, 1:09pm

Post #7 of 21 (266 views)
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Yap. [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess the issue of most big bad guys is a mix of arrogance, lesser allies, and - maybe most importantly - the mistake of transferring their own way of thinking onto their enemies and misjudging what they will or might do. No empathy.

Had Sauron been capable of understanding that the Free Peoples might be willing to destroy the Ring, it would have become impossible for them to succeed... a batallion of Orcs or some Nazgul or any other foul creature placed carefully around the Sammath Naur would have been the end for the quest.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 30 2013, 1:10pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 2:18pm

Post #8 of 21 (261 views)
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Difference is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...with Saruman, the "screwing" was intentional.


Quote
Azog, Bolg, Saruman....all royally screwed him....



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 6:36pm

Post #9 of 21 (197 views)
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lol about Bolg. I think Azog to though. That overreach REALLY cost dearly [In reply to] Can't Post

because virtually NOTHING would have served to gather and mobilize the Dwarves of every house in the way that the slaughter of Durin's heir, unprovoked, did. It led to the extermination of virtually every goblin-orc colony from Gundabad to the Gladden... that is a bfd. That HAD to smart, even aside to the fact that it almost certainly led, indirectly, to the eventual removal of the Balrog of Moria, who would have been of inestimable value had Sauron managed to win him to his aid (and really there was, perhaps in all Middle-Earth, no more logical an ally).

In Reply To
...

Because you are right, every single Orc, goblin and demon who was not in the way of the Company of Oakenshield or the Fellowship, or any of its supporters, was a help - and a problem for the Dark Lord.

But especially Bolg after the Battle of the Five Armies.... Sauron might have felt like resurrecting him just to torture him back to death again after that failure.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 6:43pm

Post #10 of 21 (183 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

And, I really am not certain..... I think they were acting without instruction and forethought... and that they too did not properly understand their foes. I think Azog, in particular, thought to humiliate and terrify the dwarves, and did not account for their fierce devotion to family and their near worship of their Patriarchs, above all others the kings of Durin's line. I don't think he understood he was about to bite off FAR more than he could chew. It doesn't make him stupid per se... lots of very smart people miscalculate and end up, pardon the circumstancial pun, in over their heads.


In Reply To
It shows the selfish nature of Orcs but also it seems to highlight an unwillingness to wait? Are Azog and Bolg simply not prepared to go into league with Sauron in the first place? Is this an example of straightforward disobedience or is it simply pure ignorance and revealing a not-so-clever orc race that physically can't see the larger picture?
In the films, PJ seems to represent the Orcs as being of a brutish and predictable nature that just want to go in all guns blazing as it were, wanting a fight but not really caring what the fight is for most of the time. Are Orcs simply stupid? I've found that Orcs are portrayed in the books with more intelligence than the film renderings.
I'll be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Faleel
Rohan

Nov 30 2013, 6:49pm

Post #11 of 21 (177 views)
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But [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron himself ordered the Orcs to harry the Dwarves as much as they could.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Nov 30 2013, 7:31pm

Post #12 of 21 (172 views)
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Oft evil will shall evil mar. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never thought about this in-depth before, so thanks for setting it all out clearly, AinurOlorin. It's amazing to think how much Azog and Bolg, in intending to wreak havoc on their enemies, actually damaged their own cause. Their actions certainly seem dumb in retrospect, but they had no way of knowing what they were putting in motion. Would a Nazgul (or the Balrog) have done any better? It's hard to say.

I guess we can agree that the resulting mess for Mordor was not intentional on Azog's or Bolg's part. Then again, as Aragorn says, "It is hard to tell with this evil folk, when they are in league and when they are cheating one another."

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 8:44pm

Post #13 of 21 (155 views)
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With regards to the beheading of Thror... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I didn't really see it as Azog intentionally provoking the Dwarves. Azog saw a half-crazed Dwarf wandering alone, and he did what just about any Orc chieftain would have done. Thror entering Moria alone was a foolish thing to do, and I doubt Azog even knew who Thror was.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 8:54pm

Post #14 of 21 (144 views)
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Yet, unable to foresee all ends, he didn't give specific do and do not do instructions [In reply to] Can't Post

lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 9:00pm

Post #15 of 21 (137 views)
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Indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Bolgs actions seem more foolish than Azog's, though they were probably, on the whole, less detrimental. Bolg entered a fray where his foes were on the verge of ruining themselves against themselves.

Azog killed a wonderer... but he made a show of it, and that was a mistake.

The Balrog achieved the ruin of Moria and had the power and terror to prevent the dwarves from even contemplating vengeance, but the destruction of the orc nation that arose there left even him vulnerable in a way most unexpected.

In Reply To
I have never thought about this in-depth before, so thanks for setting it all out clearly, AinurOlorin. It's amazing to think how much Azog and Bolg, in intending to wreak havoc on their enemies, actually damaged their own cause. Their actions certainly seem dumb in retrospect, but they had no way of knowing what they were putting in motion. Would a Nazgul (or the Balrog) have done any better? It's hard to say.

I guess we can agree that the resulting mess for Mordor was not intentional on Azog's or Bolg's part. Then again, as Aragorn says, "It is hard to tell with this evil folk, when they are in league and when they are cheating one another."


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 9:03pm

Post #16 of 21 (141 views)
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Probably not, but his boasting and malice overshot their aim. [In reply to] Can't Post

If he had killed Thror quietly and dropped him into a chasm in Khazad-um. Instead, he butchered him, and made a show of it, giving a dwarf witness INSTRUCTIONS to take the tale home. Which Nar did, to consequences we all know.

In Reply To
...I didn't really see it as Azog intentionally provoking the Dwarves. Azog saw a half-crazed Dwarf wandering alone, and he did what just about any Orc chieftain would have done. Thror entering Moria alone was a foolish thing to do, and I doubt Azog even knew who Thror was.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 30 2013, 9:17pm

Post #17 of 21 (129 views)
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Oh, he definitely bit off more than he could chew... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I think under the circumstances, most Orcs would have done the same thing. Just a case of an Orc being an Orc.


Quote
to consequences we all know


Well, he DID survive into the 2900s to chase Thorin and Co. around, so I'd say he made out alright Wink


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 30 2013, 9:18pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 9:25pm

Post #18 of 21 (119 views)
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That may be, but at the core, the same truth applies. [In reply to] Can't Post

Without meaning to do so, Azog set a chain of events in motion that greatly and detrimentally effected Sauron's war in the North. An army of 10,000 orcs, some of the huge, talented warriors like Azog himself, would have made a massive difference. And a Balrog, if it could be swayed to act (and I will warrant Sauron understood Balrogs and their interests very well, being not only of a kindred nature, but having a long knowledge of their long history and a shared master), would have been even more devestating.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lio
Lorien


Dec 1 2013, 9:37pm

Post #19 of 21 (72 views)
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I think Azog's actual words may suggest otherwise [In reply to] Can't Post

When Azog was speaking to Thror's companion, he declared himself the king and wanted Thror's family to know this. I don't think he would have worded it that way if he thought Thror was just a random wandering Dwarf. Considering Thror's reason for entering Moria, I think it's likely that he would have proclaimed his kingship to Azog.

Really interesting thread by the way!

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 1 2013, 10:59pm

Post #20 of 21 (65 views)
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Thank you. And in light of those words, you may be right. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Azog may have expected war... However, I think he miscalculated on two fronts. I think he believed that it would only be, at best, Thror's own disposessed kin who would come seeking vengeance and be overmatched, not that the entire houses of Durin and the other dwarf nations would rally under one banner to avenge the heir of the Eldest Father. I don't think he undestood dwarves well enough.

I also think he may truly have believed that the dread of The Balrog and the presence of him might have still kept the dwarves from attacking Moria itself, or maybe even that the Demon Lieutenant might have been moved to act. Dain catches Azog running for the gate... and Dain sees the Balrog on the other side. I do not know even now whether Azog merely meant to hide.... or if he was counting on the dread of the Demon to prevent any further hunt for him once he cleared the first hall.

In Reply To
When Azog was speaking to Thror's companion, he declared himself the king and wanted Thror's family to know this. I don't think he would have worded it that way if he thought Thror was just a random wandering Dwarf. Considering Thror's reason for entering Moria, I think it's likely that he would have proclaimed his kingship to Azog.

Really interesting thread by the way!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lio
Lorien


Dec 2 2013, 12:58am

Post #21 of 21 (72 views)
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Hmm, I can imagine Azog hiding behind the Balrog XD [In reply to] Can't Post

Like a bested bully running home to his mommy. Wink

Just a random thought, but I really wish Tolkien had written more about this war, even as a Silmarillion-style chapter. The build-up and conclusion as seen in the appendices are just epic (yeah, I know that word is overused Laugh) and I've always wondered what happened in between. There's a lot of story potential there! Plus the Dwarves and Orcs have been rather underrepresented in the Middle-earth writings compared to other races and I always like seeing more of them.

Another random thought, but I hope the filmmakers take some cues from Azog's portrayal in the book when realizing him onscreen in the upcoming movies. There's this arrogance and twisted sense of humour that come through in his book dialogue that make him really wicked. Great potential there. Smile

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!

 
 

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