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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Chapter of the Week: Roast Mutton.

DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 29 2013, 8:28pm

Post #1 of 14 (392 views)
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Chapter of the Week: Roast Mutton. Can't Post

Hello and welcome to (possibly) the last CHOW before the release of The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. Depending on the forum traffic, the next CHOW will likely begin in January. But we'll judge on a week-by-week basis. Keep your eyes peeled for the next sign-up thread.

This weeks movie chapter up for discussion is Roast Mutton! Feel free to answer any of the questions to below.

General questions

1. What is your favourite shot and quote from this scene?
2. Conversely, what is your least favourite quote from this scene?
3. What do you think of the Trollshaw set? Is the lighting dark enough, is it large enough?
4. Any other thoughts about the scene set-up?
5. Any comments on the score?



The Trolls

1. How did you envisage the Trolls when reading the book?
2. Do they talk and walk the way you thought they would?
3. Do you have a favourite of the three? And why are they your favourite?
4. How does the CGI of the Trolls compare to other characters in the film?



Changes from the book

1. What is your least favourite change from the book?
2. Do you think anything works better in this scene than in the book?
3. In the film, Bilbo keeps the Trolls arguing, while in the book Gandalf imitates their voices. What do you think of this change? It certainly gives Bilbo a heroic moment, but does it work any better?
4. What do you think of Gandalf's stone cracking manoeuvre? Is it too similar to the Khazad-dm scene in The Fellowship of the Ring?
5. If you had been the director, what one detail from the book would you have made sure to have included?

Ere, 'oo are you?

The whimsical charm of the book was not fully realised in the film, especially by not including the Talking Purse.

1. Yes or no. Did you want the Talking Purse included in the film?
2. The Talking Purse is a pivotal character in this chapter. Why do you think he was removed from the scene?
3. In what ways could the Talking Purse have helped the scene?
4. If you squint really hard, the knife kind of looks like a purse. Who should have voiced the Talking Purse?



Random questions!

1. What were the Dwarves eating?
2. What bird(s) makes the noise when Bilbo finds Fili and Kili?
3. Was the farmer the Trolls had eaten Tom Bombadil, explaining his absence in The Fellowship of the Ring?
4. What does raw dwarf taste like?

Any other thoughts?

Smile



book Gandalf
Rohan


Nov 29 2013, 8:53pm

Post #2 of 14 (236 views)
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ere you go [In reply to] Can't Post

1. How did you envisage the Trolls when reading the book?

its along time ago when i had an unhindered by the film vision of what i thought a tolkien troll looked like, but it was very different. I think they were more billy goats gruff like, wider rounder, more human in a way, less capable than the film version, less funnily stupid, slower and more monstery! if that makes any sense.

2. Do they talk and walk the way you thought they
would?

the walking was fine, but i didnt ever envision their voices like they were.i wanted more other worldly. but then if i re read the book, the pj version makes alot of sense.

3. Do you have a favourite of the three? And why are they your favourite?

no, though i liked the one with the deeper voice to be more my vision.

4. How does the CGI of the Trolls compare to other characters in the film?

for me the troll scene is one of the most iconic and important in the hobbit that with gollum,great goblin,spiders barrels and smaug. botht the great goblin and trolls were quite disappointing for me compared to the brilliance of the gollums cgi.


Changes from the book

1. What is your least favourite change from the book?

the whole attack from the dwarves, a typical hollywood moment that wasnt needed. it really ruined the whole set piece for me

2. Do you think anything works better in this scene than in the book?

if i remember rightly the book version would have been slow and possibly boring if played out the same way. so i think a little a change was needed.


3. In the film, Bilbo keeps the Trolls arguing, while in the book Gandalf imitates their voices. What do you think of this change? It certainly gives Bilbo a heroic moment, but does it work any better?

id prefer if bilbo had imitated their voices, and played that role.

4. What do you think of Gandalf's stone cracking manoeuvre? Is it too similar to the Khazad-dm scene in The Fellowship of the Ring?

it is definitely a nod to that, i didnt mind.

5. If you had been the director, what one detail from the book would you have made sure to have included?

not the purse! i would have tried to have the dwarves getting captured one by one.

ive omitted purse questions as i find the subject rather annoying.



Random questions!

1. What were the Dwarves eating?

a stew/soup no?

2. What bird(s) makes the noise when Bilbo finds Fili and Kili?

was there a bird?

3. Was the farmer the Trolls had eaten Tom Bombadil, explaining his absence in The Fellowship of the Ring?

no
4. What does raw dwarf taste like?

..really?

Any other thoughts?

yes.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Thranderz
Rohan


Nov 29 2013, 11:03pm

Post #3 of 14 (189 views)
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Not any ol' bird! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tweet twice like a barn owl and once like a brown owl? Wink

I simply walked into Mordor.


Kim
Valinor


Nov 30 2013, 1:22am

Post #4 of 14 (181 views)
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Trolls! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the detailed post Daniel!

General questions
1. What is your favourite shot and quote from this scene?
I didnt notice until I watched with subtitles, but I liked it when you can hear one of the trolls say, get the sacks, stick em in the sacks! during the fight. And I do like the reaction of Oin, Kili and Thorin when Bilbo says the dwarves have parasites.
2. Conversely, what is your least favourite quote from this scene?
Dont have one.
3. What do you think of the Trollshaw set? Is the lighting dark enough, is it large enough?
Works for me. On the one hand, its pretty tight once the fight scene starts, but that also makes the visuals effective the dwarves dont have a lot of room to maneuver, but they fight together effectively.
4. Any other thoughts about the scene set-up?
I thought it was well done (and appreciate it even more after seeing the EE extras about everyone pitching in to re-arrange the set quickly when needed).
5. Any comments on the score?
I like the music in this scene; I liked the ebb and flow of subtle in the background, then amping up for the fight.

The Trolls
1. How did you envisage the Trolls when reading the book?
I didnt really have much of a visual in mind, other than big.
2. Do they talk and walk the way you thought they would?
Well, I didnt really have any expectations, but I like their design, characterization and movement. I like the way they spoke, although it wasnt until I watched with the subtitles that I could make out some of their phrases like, wrap your laughing gear around that.
3. Do you have a favourite of the three? And why are they your favourite?
Well, if I had to pick one, Id go with Bert. Hes the cook, and obviously just not appreciated by the other two. Williams a big bully, and Tom is rather annoying.
4. How does the CGI of the Trolls compare to other characters in the film?
Excellent! I thought they looked fantastic, on par with Gollum and the Goblin King. Really great look, especially the texture of the skin.

Changes from the book
1. What is your least favourite change from the book?
The changes from the book didnt bother me in this scene.
2. Do you think anything works better in this scene than in the book?
I did like the fight scene since it showed the dwarves in a more positive light than in the book. And the trolls looked really big in comparison since the camera angles were mostly at hobbit/dwarf height.
3. In the film, Bilbo keeps the Trolls arguing, while in the book Gandalf imitates their voices. What do you think of this change? It certainly gives Bilbo a heroic moment, but does it work any better?
I like the change, I thought it worked very well.
4. What do you think of Gandalf's stone cracking manoeuvre? Is it too similar to the Khazad-dm scene in The Fellowship of the Ring?
I didnt think of Khazad-dm, but it makes sense to have the sun appear suddenly to catch the trolls off guard. I guess Id rather see Gandalf having a more direct immediate impact than sneaking around in the bushes throwing his voice.
5. If you had been the director, what one detail from the book would you have made sure to have included?
Nothing jumps out at me, I like what was included.


Ere, 'oo are you?
The whimsical charm of the book was not fully realised in the film, especially by not including the Talking Purse.

1. Yes or no. Did you want the Talking Purse included in the film?

No. Daniel, I think you need to let it go. TongueWink
2. The Talking Purse is a pivotal character in this chapter. Why do you think he was removed from the scene? Too whimsical. Living creatures who can talk OK. An inanimate talking object would just be taking it too far.
3. In what ways could the Talking Purse have helped the scene?
N/A
4. If you squint really hard, the knife kind of looks like a purse. Who should have voiced the Talking Purse?
Seriously, just let it go. Cool


Random questions!
1. What were the Dwarves eating?
Looks like some kind of soup/stew. Perhaps with a sprinkle of sage.
2. What bird(s) makes the noise when Bilbo finds Fili and Kili?
I never noticed the bird noise before! Interesting since birds arent generally active at night. Sounds kind of exotic.
3. Was the farmer the Trolls had eaten Tom Bombadil, explaining his absence in The Fellowship of the Ring?
Creative theory. I think you may have hit on something there. Wink
4. What does raw dwarf taste like?
Tough and hairy. Apparently, trolls like it though.

Any other thoughts?

Im probably the only adult who will say this, but I laughed hysterically when Tom sneezed on Bilbo. I think I disturbed a few people in the theater, but I thought it was really funny that Tom thought hed actually sneezed Bilbo. (Its got arms and legs and everything!) Laugh

Oakenshield watch: not in this scene. Presumably next to Thorins blanket as he was probably getting ready to sleep when the fight broke out.

Thorins hair: good action shots, nice little movements in the slight breeze at the end. Still looks good when tied up in a sack, displaying its versatility.

Also, it took me a while to figure out what was different about Thorin he wasnt wearing his belt (I assume to be able to fight better). And did you catch that smile at the end of the scene? Let me remind you just in case.



Thanks to you and cats16 for setting up the Chapter of the Week! I look forward to continuing in the new year.

Smile



DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 30 2013, 10:35am

Post #5 of 14 (127 views)
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Never! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
No. Daniel, I think you need to let it go.


I'm still hoping for a cameo in another scene. I'm sure the production team would've realised their mistake. Angelic



Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 6:21pm

Post #6 of 14 (126 views)
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Great post Daniel! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

1. What is your favourite shot and quote from this scene? I *love* Bofur's response to Dori's comment about the Trolls - "They're half-wits!" ... "what does that make US?"
2. Conversely, what is your least favourite quote from this scene? I think the 'floater' bit.
3. What do you think of the Trollshaw set? Is the lighting dark enough, is it large enough? It feels a bit smaller than the book describes, in which I think the terrain was more flat, but the way SPJ set it up, it works with the idea that they want the deepest and most shadowed dell to keep away from the sun as late as possible. Like Gollum's Cave, it could have been more shadowy, but then you run the risk of simply not seeing everything.
4. Any other thoughts about the scene set-up? I wish they had paid a bit more attention to which ponies had bridles and which didn't...sort of goes in and out there. But its a tiny niggle really.
5. Any comments on the score? The Misty Mountains theme sounds so right when the Dwarves charge in!

The Trolls

1. How did you envisage the Trolls when reading the book? More humanoid with odd faces I guess, and just larger scale, because of the illustration in TH. But it never sat quite right! I like the look that has been used here in the films.
2. Do they talk and walk the way you thought they would? Not drawing room fashion at all! I think they sound quite perfect!
3. Do you have a favourite of the three? And why are they your favourite? I think it must be William/Bill.
4. How does the CGI of the Trolls compare to other characters in the film? I think their CGI is amazing. I find it pretty flawless and its impressive on such a large scale. Using three of the actors who play Dwarves I think was a stroke of genius - they 'get' the characters and it works on every level.


Changes from the book

1. What is your least favourite change from the book? Of course, the Purse missing. Unsure


2. Do you think anything works better in this scene than in the book?

3. In the film, Bilbo keeps the Trolls arguing, while in the book Gandalf imitates their voices. What do you think of this change? It certainly gives Bilbo a heroic moment, but does it work any better? This answer combines for me - I'm not sure how the voice game would play on film and I'm afraid it would have made Gandalf seem a bit too silly. Granted I love his gentle and cranky humor but I would never want him to look foolish. I love the alliterative game they play with "ferret" and "fools" as they swing the camera around in that scene.

4. What do you think of Gandalf's stone cracking manoeuvre? Is it too similar to the Khazad-dm scene in The Fellowship of the Ring? That is one reason I love it: its clearly a move that is familiar to and can be associated with Gandalf: add to this the boulder-cracking in Goblintown and you get a cohesive sense of the power of this Wizard. Its a rather magical, fantasy-themed The Buck Stops Here, in a way I think! I like it because its clearly not anything we see *anyone* else do and that sets Gandalf apart. A force to move the very earth. So I love it.


5. If you had been the director, what one detail from the book would you have made sure to have included? You've answered that for me below. How can we overlook it...?Laugh

Ere, 'oo are you?

The whimsical charm of the book was not fully realised in the film, especially by not including the Talking Purse.

1. Yes or no. Did you want the Talking Purse included in the film?

2. The Talking Purse is a pivotal character in this chapter. Why do you think he was removed from the scene?
3. In what ways could the Talking Purse have helped the scene?
4. If you squint really hard, the knife kind of looks like a purse. Who should have voiced the Talking Purse?

It would have been adorable! And very Tolkien. My only fear is that it might have confused a casual audience...especially since other bits of whimsy were not included (like the magical instruments - Misty Mountains Cold was quite grimly touching instead.) For *us* of course it would have made the scene immeasurably better, but I'm afraid you might have made quite a fuss in the theater and been escorted out. So potentially all your posting really compromised the Purse's appearance. If he was already cast, I hope they gave him another job on set. Or as I wrote about in The Tolkienia Times, maybe they set him free in the wild.

(William Kircher would have been perfect, but he's taken ... I bet Andy Serkis could have done a lovely Purse voice. We could try to have a mashup I suppose of the richest, sexiest voice ever doing a Cockney squeak and have Richard give it a try. Then the Purse would have a whole new following.) Laugh


Random questions!

1. What were the Dwarves eating? Not sure but it was pretty greasy looking. Crisco soup? It has the same shiny, floaty top that Eowyn's stew has.


2. What bird(s) makes the noise when Bilbo finds Fili and Kili? You've got me there. I have to watch it again and listen for it.


3. Was the farmer the Trolls had eaten Tom Bombadil, explaining his absence in The Fellowship of the Ring? Well if we saw a bright blue jacket and yellow boots in the Troll cave, we would have to bow our heads in grief...I hope Tom's end was not to be stuck in a Troll's teeth.


4. What does raw dwarf taste like? This is the sort of question which is likely to get me into trouble on this family board, so I am going to gracefully side step it by saying that all the Dwarves were well done, so raw does not apply. Cool

Any other thoughts? When Thorin is deciding what to do when the Trolls have Bilbo...not only is he looking at Bilbo he's looking *right* into Bilbo's eyes if you follow the eyelines...no wonder even tough and battle-hardened Thorin is touched.







The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Nov 30 2013, 6:22pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 7:18pm

Post #7 of 14 (91 views)
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Thank you for including the pic Kim. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 30 2013, 8:31pm

Post #8 of 14 (92 views)
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*High fives* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It would have been adorable! And very Tolkien.


We all complain about Azog, Tauriel and the Goblin King's goitre; but the real issue is the lack of the Talking Purse. Everyone says they want more "Tolkien" but don't include the Talking Purse. FrownWink

As a whole I quite like the scene. It's fairly true to the book, but did need some alterations to work on film. I imagine this scene would have been cut altogether if there had only been one (or even two) film(s).


Quote
This is the sort of question which is likely to get me into trouble on this family board, so I am going to gracefully side step it by saying that all the Dwarves were well done, so raw does not apply.


This makes me laugh! Trust you! Wink



elaen32
Gondor


Nov 30 2013, 10:15pm

Post #9 of 14 (78 views)
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With a side serving of Nutella? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To


4. What does raw dwarf taste like? This is the sort of question which is likely to get me into trouble on this family board, so I am going to gracefully side step it by saying that all the Dwarves were well done, so raw does not apply. Cool

I gather that is the only way to serve dwarf eh Brethil?




Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 30 2013, 10:25pm

Post #10 of 14 (75 views)
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Indeed. With this *Large* size container we should do quite well. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To


4. What does raw dwarf taste like? This is the sort of question which is likely to get me into trouble on this family board, so I am going to gracefully side step it by saying that all the Dwarves were well done, so raw does not apply. Cool



With a side serving of Nutella? I gather that is the only way to serve dwarf eh Brethil?

(Yes! You have to balance the flavors you know.)

*Image courtesy of Dame Ioreth. SmileWink



The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Nov 30 2013, 10:26pm)


Kim
Valinor


Dec 1 2013, 4:49am

Post #11 of 14 (63 views)
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Hey! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's the one I keep seeing in Costco. Guess I'd better pick one up on my next trip, eh? Wink


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Dec 1 2013, 8:05pm

Post #12 of 14 (68 views)
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*glancing down the page and then rolling eyes at the fourth caption* I knew that was going to come in at some point, Daniel! :P [In reply to] Can't Post

General questions

1. What is your favourite shot and quote from this scene?
I didn't to think hard about this one, Daniel!
Shot: This one! Tongue (need you ask why)
Quote: "You can't reason with them, they're half-wits!"
"Half-wits? What does that make us?!"

2. Conversely, what is your least favourite quote from this scene?
The whole troll discussion was very unpleasant and I did not enjoy it at all (except from the bit when Bert's wanting "a bit of appreciation").

3. What do you think of the Trollshaw set? Is the lighting dark enough, is it large enough?
Comparing it to the LOTR, I think TH Trollshaw set looks less realistic than FOTR, but I am learning to accept that it is different. It was large enough, though.

4. Any other thoughts about the scene set-up?
Nope, I'm good! Smile

5. Any comments on the score?
I think the 'Misty Mountains' (aka 'Dwarves Triumphant' theme) in the actual film rather than what version they had in the Soundtrack was quite epic.


The Trolls

1. How did you envisage the Trolls when reading the book?
Because I had seen FOTR first before picking up The Hobbit book, I pictured them to be like the cave troll... and I did actually visualise one of them wearing an apron.

2. Do they talk and walk the way you thought they would?
To some extent, yes... but at the same time, no.

3. Do you have a favourite of the three? And why are they your favourite?
No... but I found Bert quite amusing when I watched it.

4. How does the CGI of the Trolls compare to other characters in the film?
Pretty much the same as the CGI in other scenes. Smile


Changes From The Book

1. What is your least favourite change from the book?
I thought they should had at least a few dwarves stepping into the firelight and getting a sack over their heads and then have the rest of the company coming in to fight.

2. Do you think anything works better in this scene than in the book?
Everything except from the "Burglar... ur, Hobbit!"
I think they should have had "Bur-a Hobbit!" like in the book.

3. In the film, Bilbo keeps the Trolls arguing, while in the book Gandalf imitates their voices. What do you think of this change? It certainly gives Bilbo a heroic moment, but does it work any better?
I think that worked just as well as having Gandalf imitating the trolls' voices. Obviously in the book, it was amusing reading it.

4. What do you think of Gandalf's stone cracking manoeuvre? Is it too similar to the Khazad-dm scene in The Fellowship of the Ring?
I think it was (like when he bangs into the chandelier) again to show the side of Gandalf we see in FOTR.

5. If you had been the director, what one detail from the book would you have made sure to have included?
"Lots and None at All" I thought would have been quite funny to see on the screen.


Ere, 'oo are you?
(aka The Typical Caption from DanielLB) Sly

1. Yes or no. Did you want the Talking Purse
included in the film?

I really don't know. I mean, it was not entirely compulsory.

2. The Talking Purse is a pivotal character in this chapter. Why do you think he was removed from the scene?
Because they did not have any other objects that talked. They are trying to make Middle-Earth as if it is part of real history, as it were, so they did not want that side coming out (as the book was just for kids).

3. In what ways could the Talking Purse have helped the scene?
I think it would have confused people... after all, in this version of the film Bilbo's "objective" was to rescue the ponies, not to pickpocket from Trolls.

4. If you squint really hard, the knife kind of looks like a purse. Who should have voiced the Talking Purse?
They could have just got Peter Jackson to have done another little cameo and say it in a high-pitched voice. Laugh


Random Questions!

1. What were the Dwarves eating?
Stew, I presume.

2. What bird(s) makes the noise when Bilbo finds Fili and Kili?
You've been chatting again to cats and Silwen again, haven't you!? Laugh I was aware of the birds - one goes like "wrrrroooop" and another goes "eeeek" but I have no idea what they are.

3. Was the farmer the Trolls had eaten Tom Bombadil, explaining his absence in The Fellowship of the Ring?
I'm just totally going to sleep better knowing that...
I certainly hope it wasn't.

4. What does raw dwarf taste like?
I'd have to bite Thorin to find that out... Sly

Any other thoughts?
Another great discussion. Thanks for posting this, Daniel! I had lots of fun answering this. Wink

..The Lord of Silver Fountains
.....The King of Carven Stone
..The King Under the Mountain
.......Shall come into his own

..And the bells will ring in gladness
......At the Mountain King's return
..But all shall fail in sadness
....And the lake will shine and burn


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Dec 1 2013, 8:07pm

Post #13 of 14 (59 views)
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*glancing at the picture at the bottom* Great minds think alike, Kim! [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually did not notice this until after I had posted my response! High five, girl! Laugh
*holds hand in the air*

..The Lord of Silver Fountains
.....The King of Carven Stone
..The King Under the Mountain
.......Shall come into his own

..And the bells will ring in gladness
......At the Mountain King's return
..But all shall fail in sadness
....And the lake will shine and burn


Kim
Valinor


Dec 1 2013, 11:05pm

Post #14 of 14 (52 views)
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High five right back atcha! :-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

 
 

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