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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The *spoilers* ...Film 2? Or Film 3?
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Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 23 2013, 6:10am

Post #1 of 74 (1571 views)
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The *spoilers* ...Film 2? Or Film 3? Can't Post

Death of Smaug

There ARE reccurring
positions.. from many Posters

..some Think he dies near the end of film 2
..some Think he dies near the begin of film 3
What do you Think?

Bomby is just trying to
Consolidate opinions here.

Please no fighting on this Playground..

Bomby your Referee?


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Nov 23 2013, 4:32pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 6:19am

Post #2 of 74 (783 views)
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Film 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

I've said it all along, and I still stand by it. I think Smaug will survive until film 3 and then bite the dust in act one.

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


MechaGodzilla
Rivendell

Nov 23 2013, 6:23am

Post #3 of 74 (759 views)
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Most likely TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what it all seems to point to. As far as my personal preference goes, it does feel like it'd be more appropriate for the end of the second film.


Sidhion
Registered User

Nov 23 2013, 6:26am

Post #4 of 74 (775 views)
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Film 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the Desolation of Smaug will end with Smaug's death and the destruction of Lake-town.

His death shouldn't be glorified. It should be quite a sad tone. Intercut scenes between the Dwarves in Erebor cheering and celebrating, and the Lake-men mourning the loss of their town, family and friends. It would be a really powerful ending and build up to the Battle of Five Armies.

Plus, Ed Sheeran's 'I See Fire' hints at Lake-towns destruction.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Nov 23 2013, 6:27am

Post #5 of 74 (732 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I originally wanted him to hit the hay in DoS, but now I'm almost certain (going by the soundtrack) that he'll be around til TABA.Or maybe he dies at the end of DoS. It doesn't really bother me anymore if he does die in TABA, because I'm happy to see as much of Smaug as we can!


(This post was edited by tarasaurus on Nov 23 2013, 6:28am)


haldad
Bree


Nov 23 2013, 6:39am

Post #6 of 74 (757 views)
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For those that care about opinions of the critics.... [In reply to] Can't Post

If Smaug doesn't die in this movie, I can see the headlines now:

"In the first movie, we see his eye. In the second movie, he talks a bit. We await the third film for him to actually do something".

In my opinion, the third movie should be about the Battle of 5 Armies, and the beginning of Sauron's rise to power. I mean honestly, if this next movie isn't about the introduction and demise of Smaug....then its a very poorly constructed middle chapter. The Two Towers had an end. You knew that there was a bigger battle coming, but it ended with the defeat of Saruman.


Adanel
The Shire

Nov 23 2013, 6:48am

Post #7 of 74 (722 views)
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Film 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Based solely on the lyrics of I see fire, which talks about the sky crashing into this lonely town and also watching a city burn. I think he will die right at the end of film 2 leaving us with the devastation and not knowing who survived, which is made more powerful given that some of the dwarves and Legolas and Tauriel are in the city, plus of course Bards family.


The Mitch King
Rohan


Nov 23 2013, 7:29am

Post #8 of 74 (700 views)
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*spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug's death

I hope, hope, hope it will be in DoS! With the DG stuff being included, their will be plenty to leave the audience wanting more to come back for TABA. The title will have the audience thinking he will die in this one despite the fact that we know the title is actually a location. Their are decent arguments for AND against his death being in DoS. I am honestly unsure. My pessimist side says it won't happen until TABA due to the many references saying it won't. My optimist side says it will happen in DoS due to many references suggesting it will happen there.

Smaug's death can finish off the awesome character arc of Smaug, which has been overly teased throughout the first movie. It could give DoS great value as a standalone film IMO. Everything feels "meh" to me unless they finish off DG in this one. I feel like PJ gets just as excited about the cool, big scenes as us, so I think something bada$$ will happen in this one.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Nov 23 2013, 4:34pm)


The Mitch King
Rohan


Nov 23 2013, 7:45am

Post #9 of 74 (647 views)
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Which movie are YOU thinking Bomby?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 8:07am

Post #10 of 74 (664 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

... for a long time I was sure it would be film 3.

Simply because I thought Dol Guldur would be the big battle of film 2.

But since we have pretty clear evidence that the WC won't attack Dol Guldur in DoS, I made the mistake of not rethinking how all the potential climaxes could work out.

Dol Guldur, Smaug's downfall and the Bot5A all in one movie are, however, too much.

So I am slowly starting to turn around and at least hope for his death in film 2. I am getting nervous that otherwise DoS will feel like an horribly obvious bridge movie - and the three movie idea might fail on all fronts.

Ed Sheeran's songtext, written as a direct reaction to the movie, certainly hints at a city falling. At the same time, the dwarves vs. Smaug scenes make me wonder again whether they did not include that for the sake of creating a climax that otherwise did not exist.


I guess a good way could be for DoS to end with Smaug's death and Esgaroth's destruction and Bard walking through the ruined city, maybe finding one of his childs dead. Then cut to Erebor with maybe Balin or Bilbo saying something on the lines of "I see fire" after they had fought they had forced Smaug to retreat. As I said in another thread, I have this haunting image in my mind of the burning cities of WWII that were seen sometimes hundreds of miles away because of the enormous fires. Some image like this might work perfectly for Laketown and the ending of the movie.


TABA could start with another perspective on Smaug's attack other than Bard's - maybe the dwarves and/or Tauriel & Legolas who will then return to Mirkwood to tell Thranduil what happened.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


Bernhardina
Rohan


Nov 23 2013, 8:57am

Post #11 of 74 (626 views)
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I kinda agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I too am starting to hope for Smaugs death in DoS... but we will just have to wait and see how it all plays out. But do you think one of Bards daughters will die? Don't you think it is unlikely given the Hobbit is a "childrens movie"?

Boromir: One does not simply walk into Mordor...

Gandalf: FLY, YOU FOOLS!


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 9:04am

Post #12 of 74 (611 views)
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No... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I don't think this will stop them from doing it. I also don't think it is too much for kids.

The movie still has a PG 13, in some countries 12, rating. So really small kids won't be in there anyway.

And compared to the Hunger Games in which I think a bigger majority of fans are in their early teens, the death of a Bard daughter won't be too much.

But imho it would make for a believable and good character arc for Bard and why he wants to march on the mountain.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 23 2013, 9:41am

Post #13 of 74 (598 views)
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Film 2.... [In reply to] Can't Post

So far as I can tell, everything we've seen so far points to it.


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 23 2013, 9:44am

Post #14 of 74 (599 views)
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I don't believe one of Bard's daughters will die... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is The Hobbit, not The Hunger Games (thank goodness!)


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 10:14am

Post #15 of 74 (563 views)
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I wonder... [In reply to] Can't Post

... what the death of a girl in a city attacked by a giant Dragon has to do with the Hunger Games. Especially when it gives Bard all the more reason to seek compensation and march on the mountain.

It would also give us a certain connection to one of Smaug's victims, not just flaming Laketowner redshirts.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 23 2013, 10:16am)


Olorin2607
Lorien


Nov 23 2013, 10:22am

Post #16 of 74 (597 views)
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Film 3 1000% [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter Jackson and I think especially WB is not going to kill off the most anticipated CGI creature in all of the Middleearth-Movies halfway through the trilogy. They certainly want to have some Smaug Posters around next year.

As much as some here hope that it will be in DOS for climactic reasons..well why would PJ invent that scene Dwarves vs Smaug if not for some sort of climax?

And as I already pointed out to dormouse in another thread, the soundtrack rather suggests that Smaug won't die.
See the runtime of "My armor is Iron" versus e.g. "Flies and Spiders". The attack on Laketown is certainly going to be a longer sequence.

At most I think we get to see a burning Laketown without actually "zooming" in if you know what I mean (from the viewpoint of the dwarves in Erebor)


(This post was edited by Nagini6 on Nov 23 2013, 10:22am)


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 10:26am

Post #17 of 74 (595 views)
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The soundtrack [In reply to] Can't Post

All the points you mention make me unsure as well.

However, if it does happen in DoS, it has been kept such a secret that they might have decided not to go for the track or at least not the whole track on the soundtrack. Plus, the music of the Dwarves vs. Smaug could be used for Laketown as well with minor changes, so that it is not a full length new track.

And talking soundtrack, don't forget we also have Sheeran's "crashed into this lonely town" which was written under the imidiate impression after seeing the movie.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 23 2013, 10:28am)


Olorin2607
Lorien


Nov 23 2013, 10:30am

Post #18 of 74 (564 views)
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Possible, but not very probable. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Another point: The movie runtime. It's most likely going to be shorter than AUJ and with all the other stuff that is going to happen an attack on laketown just does not fit in.

If it shows up in DOS, then it really was well hidden.


(This post was edited by Nagini6 on Nov 23 2013, 10:31am)


dubulous
Rohan

Nov 23 2013, 10:35am

Post #19 of 74 (539 views)
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I hope film 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

As it is, there seems to be a lot left to solve in TABA, so I think it doesn't really need Smaug. Also, killing Smaug now would give DoA a big event it needs, and it would also give Smaug the big finish he deserves, rather than just being quickly disposed of in the beginning of the third movie to make way for even bigger events.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 10:47am

Post #20 of 74 (557 views)
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To be honest... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I never quite got why people think this movie has more plot to handle than TTT for example.

TTT had to introduce Gollum, Rohan, the Ents, Gandalf's return, the flight, Aragorn and Arwen, the build up to the battle, Osgiliath and the battle as well.

Since Gandalf will have probably two major episodes, one in the High Fells and one in Dol Guldur with all in all probably not that much screen time, I don't see why it shouldn't be doable in a bit over 2.5 hours.

This is totally random, but I think it shows that it could work in one way or the other. However, I tried to reach the barrels in not too much over one hour, as PJ expected it to be within the first hour a while back (though he usually seems to be a bit too optimistic about timing ;) )

Prologue 7 minutes
Beorn 15 minutes
Mirkwood and Spiders 15 minutes
High Fells 10 minutes
Woodland Realm 25 minutes
Barrels 7 minutes
Bard and Laketown 20 minutes
Dol Guldur 15 minutes
Mountain and Door 10 minutes
Smaug 20 minutes
Dwarves vs. Smaug 10 minutes
Laketown end sequence 11 minutes

165 minutes

That would make a approx. 40 minutes long Smaug sequence... As great as he might be, they shouldn't overdo it either.

Plus, they have the possibility to show his attack from a different perspective in the TABA prologue.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 23 2013, 10:51am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 23 2013, 10:53am

Post #21 of 74 (529 views)
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The association was made by another poster.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... who thought that now the Hunger Games is popular the idea of killing a child for effect in the film would be acceptable. Put simply, I hope that's wrong.

It's a fair assumption, of course, that people of all ages from Laketown would have been killed on the day, but as no individual death plays any part in Tolkien's story I think it would be wise of them to keep it that way. The person whose safety we should be fearing for is Bard, isn't it? Remember how, in the story, the survivors are praising him and assuming that he is dead? In the film it looks possible that Bain might be with him - and again, there may be an 'is he alive or is he dead' moment for Bain.

I also think it's extremely unlikely that they will have introduced a child to the story simply to kill her. Seems to me that it's not the way Peter Jackson and his team approach things. I'm thinking particularly of the boys who were armed to fight for Rohan in Two Towers. They created Haleth son of Hama for that little scene with Aragorn and there were a couple of other boys the camera lingered over. The tragedy was emphasised by the fact that the boys were arming, and by their obvious fear, but we never saw one killed and were never told what had become of them. I think that was wise and sensitive, and I hope they carry on in that vein in this film. Some things really are best left to the imagination.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 11:01am

Post #22 of 74 (508 views)
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That was me actually. [In reply to] Can't Post

However, I did not say that because HG is now popular the idea is acceptable, I just said that I do not think it would be a reason for the movie to lose its audience or rating. Whatever one thinks about the story elcement of a child dying.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


macfalk
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 11:12am

Post #23 of 74 (524 views)
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I think film 3, because [In reply to] Can't Post

1. The reported short running time. Carrock-Meeting with Smaug-Bard kills Smaug in just 2h 30min? I doubt it.
2. Saving the best for last, meaning Smaug will be alive in TABA and that movie has the potential of being the best Middle-earth movie ever.

I'm concerned though with the lack of climax for DOS, because there is none on paper. I did like the AUJ ending very much and it was clever that they saw Erebor from afar and Smaug's eye opening, but now? I have no idea. I think people may come out dissapointed with abrupt ending if PJ just sticks with the book, which he isn't for this reason. We'll all know in a couple of weeks!



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Nov 23 2013, 11:12am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 23 2013, 11:28am

Post #24 of 74 (491 views)
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Sorry, no, I wasn't thinking of your post.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone else did say that because The Hunger Games was popular the idea was more acceptable - it was a few days ago now.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 23 2013, 11:34am

Post #25 of 74 (483 views)
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Ah okay, sorry for the confusion. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not even want to start on that franchise... Not a fan. Evil


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

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