Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Spoiler! And in this I cite no source save the Visual Companion books available to all

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 20 2013, 6:07am

Post #1 of 24 (1422 views)
Shortcut
Spoiler! And in this I cite no source save the Visual Companion books available to all Can't Post

It seems that The Nine WILL be present in THIS movie, if the strong indications of the Visual Companion, which states that in the center courtyard of Dol Guldur there are Nine Alcoves corresponding to the Nine Wraith Lords, is to be taken at face value.


My great hope is that we will get the Amon Sul adhereing confrontation between Gandalf and The Nine Nazgul, HOWEVER, with only the intervention of Sauron deciding the outcome. My GREAT concern, all full of ready to unleash disgust, is the possibility of The Witch-King breaking the staff and deciding the battle. That would be an unacceptable travesty. READ THE BOOK, PETER, PHILLIPA, FRAN ET AL!!! There is an 11 hour Battle between Gandalf and The Nine in the book, if they could have broken his staff and captured him in under twenty minutes, pretty sure they would have done it, but clearly this was beyond them.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 20 2013, 9:43am

Post #2 of 24 (550 views)
Shortcut
They have read the book[s]. Often. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 20 2013, 9:47am

Post #3 of 24 (585 views)
Shortcut
I'm pretty sure they've read the book BUT [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a movie. You can't show a 11 hour fight. The same with the Battle of Dagorlad and the later "Siege of Barad-dr". In the book this lasted seven years and in the book it's perhaps a day or something like that.

I'm pretty sure they've read the book and I'm sure they won't show Gandalf as a weak person who is no match for the Nine. After all Aragorn was able to defeat at least Five of them only with a torch and a sword. Although they didn't appear as wraiths but as riders in black.

We have to wait and even if the Nine are able to defeat Gandalf (with the help of Sauron perhaps) he won't give up without a spectacular fight with a lot of thunder and magic. It won't last 11 hours for sure but it will be worthy of book-Gandalf.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 20 2013, 2:16pm

Post #4 of 24 (447 views)
Shortcut
If you are going to yell at them [In reply to] Can't Post

At least have the courtesy to learn how to correctly spell Philippa Boyen's first name.

(And yes, I am serious.)

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Elessar
Valinor


Nov 20 2013, 3:09pm

Post #5 of 24 (394 views)
Shortcut
I caught that as well [In reply to] Can't Post

when I got my book last night. I am curious to see if they will take something from LOTR and put it here allowing the power of Gandalf to come through. I will be curious to see how he ends up in the cage we saw and I do hope its not because the Nazgul overwhelmed him.



Olorin2607
Lorien


Nov 20 2013, 7:14pm

Post #6 of 24 (269 views)
Shortcut
Do not be nasty [In reply to] Can't Post

We all know how passionate AO is about Gandalf. I admit it gets slightly annoying at the 100th iteration but still...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 20 2013, 7:27pm

Post #7 of 24 (245 views)
Shortcut
To be clear, when I say 'read the books', the intent is not to imply that they have not read them, but rather [In reply to] Can't Post

to remind all that the pertinent information for how such a fight would turn out is already in the text, to an extent. We already know that all the Nine would not be instantly destroyed, but that neither would the staff of Gandalf be broken (certainly not in seconds), and that he would likely be able to hold out and break away from their siege, provided Sauron himself was not involved.

And of course they cannot show an 11 hour fight, HOWEVER, they can make an actual battle (very different from what happened in ee ROTKs touch of heretical apocrypha), as was shown with Saruman and Gandalf, and Gandalf and The Balrog etc., with something of the displays of magic we have seen by both sides, or some which we have not yet seen but which would adhere well to what is known from the novels (i.e. Nazgul aversion to flame, Gandalf's special talent and skill for flame enchantments), as opposed to positing a scenario that wouldn't have happened (i.e. The Witch-King breaking an Istari's staff through force of will and sorcery) OR by having a rather lazy cheat, from an imaginative and filmic perspective, where the Wizard is essentially crippled before the confrontation even starts, thus voiding the requirment of showing any real displays of magic.

I hope very much that you are right about the last two (though I am entirely fine with the logical aspect of Sauron ultimately proving dominant). I am not certain in expectation, but I do very much wish for you to be right.

In Reply To
This is a movie. You can't show a 11 hour fight. The same with the Battle of Dagorlad and the later "Siege of Barad-dr". In the book this lasted seven years and in the book it's perhaps a day or something like that.

I'm pretty sure they've read the book and I'm sure they won't show Gandalf as a weak person who is no match for the Nine. After all Aragorn was able to defeat at least Five of them only with a torch and a sword. Although they didn't appear as wraiths but as riders in black.

We have to wait and even if the Nine are able to defeat Gandalf (with the help of Sauron perhaps) he won't give up without a spectacular fight with a lot of thunder and magic. It won't last 11 hours for sure but it will be worthy of book-Gandalf.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 20 2013, 7:29pm

Post #8 of 24 (241 views)
Shortcut
Fingers crossed. About that and about the hope [In reply to] Can't Post

that he gets out in this film, even if it is with a little help from Radagast.

In Reply To
when I got my book last night. I am curious to see if they will take something from LOTR and put it here allowing the power of Gandalf to come through. I will be curious to see how he ends up in the cage we saw and I do hope its not because the Nazgul overwhelmed him.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 20 2013, 7:32pm

Post #9 of 24 (243 views)
Shortcut
Lol. Aww. Thank you. I do try to re-itterate only as new news, whether hopeful or [In reply to] Can't Post

dreadful and ominous, comes to light. But thanks for the compassion Smile . I have grown accoustomed to letting slide the barbs and the arrows of the defenders of... all sorts of cannon defiant deviance Wink lol. Admittedly my armour is not as magnificent as Smaug's, but we persevere. lol

In Reply To
We all know how passionate AO is about Gandalf. I admit it gets slightly annoying at the 100th iteration but still...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Nov 20 2013, 7:33pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 21 2013, 12:15am

Post #10 of 24 (147 views)
Shortcut
AinurOlorin's posts are just about the most interesting, entertaining and well written posts around here. [In reply to] Can't Post

And i'd much rather read his 100th post about Gandalf's power than any from those that seem to feel that PJ/FW/PB can do no wrong.

And so what if he, or anyone, misspells someone's name-- mistakes happen.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 21 2013, 1:58am

Post #11 of 24 (133 views)
Shortcut
*in Mike Myers-Linda Richman voice* "I veklempt! Talk amongst yourselves!" [In reply to] Can't Post

*wipes tear from eye* I feel the same about so many of your posts SaugetDiblosio (checked the spelling there, to make sure Wink ).

And I don't want to be mistaken for a Peter, Fran and PHILIPPA hater. I love and appreciate much of what they have done, yet that doesn't mean there are not some areas where I find they are prone to err. Not just filling in blanks or making minor tweaks for a better flow, which I generally am fine with, but actually looking at the texts and sayin (and I don't mean with harmless, socio-inclusive behaviour like giving more speaking lines to awesome female characters or putting more faces of various colour in the large settlements, the later of which they were a little johnny come lately about), essentially, "yeah, that is what it rather explicitly says, but to hell with that, I like it THIS way better, and who cares if it defies the Spiritual Cosmology, or alters a characters entire disposition, or tosses important figures and facts to the side, or rewrites the whole blessed history."

Gandalf, from all we know via the finished texts, would not, especially having entered LOOKING for trouble and peril, have gotten smacked down in a short span by the Nine alone. In Fellowship, with the Nine grown considerably stronger than they would have been at the time of The Hobbit, for Sauron himself had returned stronger than he had been at the time he yielded up Dol Guldur at the coming of his foes and reconfigured his war plans to a South based strategy, a Wizard who has already been put through it due to Saruman, comes against the Nazgul and "they dared not" face him whilst the sun was in the sky. All together they besiege him at night, for a good long time, and they cannot overcome him.

I am merely saying that the screenwriters need to adhere to this, instead of diminishing him for the sake of upgrading The Nine or Galadriel. It isn't needed. Galadriel can and will be awesome, even without downplaying Gandalf. Sauron will prove mightier, even without super-enhancing the Nazgul. If such changes are made they would serve no other purpose than aggrandizing certain characters at the expense of others. Let Gandalf have his moment ere being defeated by Sauron... and let him get out of there in THIS movie, without half the council having to show up and "rescue" him, just as he does in the histories.

In Reply To
And i'd much rather read his 100th post about Gandalf's power than any from those that seem to feel that PJ/FW/PB can do no wrong.

And so what if he, or anyone, misspells someone's name-- mistakes happen.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elessar
Valinor


Nov 21 2013, 2:43am

Post #12 of 24 (119 views)
Shortcut
FIngers crossed for sure. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think a little help from Radagast would be ok. Its something I could roll with because I do think it would be nice to see some power from him so people can get off his butt for being a hippie.



Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 21 2013, 2:49am

Post #13 of 24 (135 views)
Shortcut
My comment had nothing to do "cannon defiant deviance" [In reply to] Can't Post

It had to do with basic courtesy. Which I would think, as someone who admires J.R.R. Tolkien (who put great stock in it), you would consider important. Perhaps I am wrong.

And I don't think anyone can accuse me of "cannon defiant deviance."

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Ffnir
Rohan


Nov 21 2013, 2:53am

Post #14 of 24 (127 views)
Shortcut
How will it add with... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't say this in order to make you cringe, but how will it add the lego-confirmed presence of AZOG (but it did make you cringe right ? ^^) and maybe Bolg at Dol-Guldur ? I don't see possible a scene with :
A) Azog
B) Thrain (we saw him in dol guldur facin and/or leading Gandalf in Vlogs and trailers)
C) Bolg (every original informations we had about that character linked him to the dungeon of Dol Guldur)
D) The nazguls
E) The Necromancer (which will maybe even appear in two forms, one more or less humanoid, the second more eye-oid)
D) The mighty orc army we saw in trailers that seems to come from Dol Guldur as well

There must be some elimination !! And I would go against the presence of the Nazguls, even though I know we already saw one in AUJ, it's just that except the number of alcoves, there is less signs that they will be there from promotional material than any of the others, in this second movie anyway. I tend to think that the Nazgul showdown in Dol Guldur would more likely occure in TaBA... well that's how I see it anyway.

And by the way, I like your revolted posts, even though I'm rarely in the debate, I think they show a deep love and knowledge of Tolkien's work. Even though i like speculating on what the film will be, it's good to have people like you that concentrate on what the film should be.


(This post was edited by Ffnir on Nov 21 2013, 3:01am)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 21 2013, 3:53am

Post #15 of 24 (117 views)
Shortcut
Not a hater either. [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, i consider myself a big fan, and absolutely loved watching the AUJ Appendices (i'm on my 3rd go-round). I think that Jackson, Walsh and Boyens are funny, kind, honest and obviously hard working. I just don't think that they're above criticism, especially when it comes to AUJ.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 21 2013, 4:34am

Post #16 of 24 (109 views)
Shortcut
Courtesy is a thing of great worth. [In reply to] Can't Post

And, of course, I meant no slight to Philippa Boyens nor to any other. It was part typo and part oversight, but the time for edit had passed. And no, I would not accuse you of cannon defying deviance... then again, the comment did refer to defences of said deviancy, not engagement in it. Tongue

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 21 2013, 4:40am

Post #17 of 24 (102 views)
Shortcut
Thank you. And as to Azog. bluchhhhhhh! My hope is that even if Azog is there, which [In reply to] Can't Post

he likely will be, he is quickly dropped on his head (or comes at the end and is tossed aside by a fleeing Gandalf and Radagast). I think the fact that they kept pointing to Nazgul in the V Companion, AND the fact that we have seen the Witch-King, and the fact that the high fells will be visited in This film before Dol Guldur, makes it likely that they will be there. Their absence from the Lego set is not necessarily telling, as those sets usually leave some figures, often key ones out. Usually eveyone shown in them is present, and the events depicted are essentially accurate, but they don't capture an entire scene. For example, neither Gandalf nor the Eagles are in the pan/fire/Fir Trees scene.

In Reply To
I don't say this in order to make you cringe, but how will it add the lego-confirmed presence of AZOG (but it did make you cringe right ? ^^) and maybe Bolg at Dol-Guldur ? I don't see possible a scene with :
A) Azog
B) Thrain (we saw him in dol guldur facin and/or leading Gandalf in Vlogs and trailers)
C) Bolg (every original informations we had about that character linked him to the dungeon of Dol Guldur)
D) The nazguls
E) The Necromancer (which will maybe even appear in two forms, one more or less humanoid, the second more eye-oid)
D) The mighty orc army we saw in trailers that seems to come from Dol Guldur as well

There must be some elimination !! And I would go against the presence of the Nazguls, even though I know we already saw one in AUJ, it's just that except the number of alcoves, there is less signs that they will be there from promotional material than any of the others, in this second movie anyway. I tend to think that the Nazgul showdown in Dol Guldur would more likely occure in TaBA... well that's how I see it anyway.

And by the way, I like your revolted posts, even though I'm rarely in the debate, I think they show a deep love and knowledge of Tolkien's work. Even though i like speculating on what the film will be, it's good to have people like you that concentrate on what the film should be.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 21 2013, 4:47am

Post #18 of 24 (109 views)
Shortcut
My advice to you (for what it is worth) [In reply to] Can't Post

Is Treebeardian: don't be hasty. You're so well-meaning, and passionate, which is good, but it gets the best of you sometimes. If you stopped and took a little more time sometimes I think it would be much better.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 21 2013, 4:57am

Post #19 of 24 (104 views)
Shortcut
I appreciate your thoughtfulness, but I don't think all the time on Earth is going to [In reply to] Can't Post

make me feel any more well disposed towards certain aspects if I see a repeat in the theatrical of Desolation of what I saw in the extended of Return. FrownMad

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 21 2013, 4:58am

Post #20 of 24 (96 views)
Shortcut
Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In fact, i consider myself a big fan, and absolutely loved watching the AUJ Appendices (i'm on my 3rd go-round). I think that Jackson, Walsh and Boyens are funny, kind, honest and obviously hard working. I just don't think that they're above criticism, especially when it comes to AUJ.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 21 2013, 1:27pm

Post #21 of 24 (70 views)
Shortcut
Hehe... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm definitely going into DoS with much lower expectations than I had going into AUJ. Whether or not they are low enough I will find out in a few weeks.

That said, I feel your pain, and I can sympathize with the occasional desire to scold Jackson, Boyens, et al. for some of their more egregious deviations.


The Mitch King
Rohan


Nov 21 2013, 7:06pm

Post #22 of 24 (45 views)
Shortcut
Nazgul [In reply to] Can't Post

I would really love to see them all again! The more I think about it, the more I like your idea of putting the weathertop fight in DG. That way we can still keep Sauron more ominous and mysterious (even though I want to see him do something!). I was hoping DG would turn into some kind of Nazgul/Sauron vs Wizards scene.

Do you think that the inclusion of the High Fells and the emphasis on "one of NINE" tombs is another hint that they will play into these movies??


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 22 2013, 1:47am

Post #23 of 24 (28 views)
Shortcut
Indeed. Interestingly though, it isn't An Unexpected on its own that has really [In reply to] Can't Post

lowered my expectations. With the exception of the Azog fiasco (and its one hell of an exception, I can tell you) I REALLY enjoyed An Unexpected, save some minor things I'd have tweaked or scaled back on like the stone giants, the bird dung in The Brown's hair, and all of the mucus and belch jokes.

What has worried me for a while is actually the flip side of one of my great hopes. I have hoped, since learning that Dol Guldur would be in and the Nazgul would be dwelling there, that we would get Gandalf versus the Nine, ala Amon Sul.... I have also FEARED that the writing team would take it and, as they have done with Azog's story, turn it upside down and inside out and have it turn out evey way but the way it should. In other words, a fiasco where Gandalf is badly beaten and embarassed not by Sauron, which would stand to reason and not be an embarassment... but by the Nazgul, who at this stage should not EVEN have that kind of power (at any stage, really, but certainly not here against a Wizard expecting conflict). I just... am very leery, wary, skeptical etc. of how they will handle this.

Its the glimpses and rumours surrounding THIS movie that really have my expectations with an out to lunch jury, not any dissapointment with An Unexpected beyond the above stated.

In Reply To
I'm definitely going into DoS with much lower expectations than I had going into AUJ. Whether or not they are low enough I will find out in a few weeks.

That said, I feel your pain, and I can sympathize with the occasional desire to scold Jackson, Boyens, et al. for some of their more egregious deviations.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 22 2013, 1:53am

Post #24 of 24 (25 views)
Shortcut
Absolutely. I think that will be the lead in to their presence later in the film in Dol [In reply to] Can't Post

My Hope is that it mirrors Weathertop right until the intervention of Sauron. That the Nine appear, and Gandalf drives them back with awesome displays of light and his characteristic blue flame (awesome, mind, not tacky, epic and majestic while neither ott nor gaudy), that the light from this is seen afar by Radagast, so that the other Wizard knows his kinsspirit has encountered trouble, and then, in the midst of the battle, Sauron intervenes and overcomes the Gray.

That way everything plays out to perfection in the scene. Gandalf is established as a Power who can withstand not just orcs and trolls but also supernatural foes of legendary terror and status, but the greater power of Sauron is also showcased and made manifest.

In Reply To
I would really love to see them all again! The more I think about it, the more I like your idea of putting the weathertop fight in DG. That way we can still keep Sauron more ominous and mysterious (even though I want to see him do something!). I was hoping DG would turn into some kind of Nazgul/Sauron vs Wizards scene.

Do you think that the inclusion of the High Fells and the emphasis on "one of NINE" tombs is another hint that they will play into these movies??


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.