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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM ESSAY: Music & Race in Howard Shore's score for "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit:An Unexpected Journey" by Ida
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Kim
Valinor


Nov 18 2013, 3:51am

Post #26 of 58 (250 views)
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Thank you for the post Ida [In reply to] Can't Post

That was a very nice read. Although I played a few instruments when I was young, I didn't really progress far in terms of music theory, so this is a nice introduction into how themes were differentiated by race in these films. It does seem to me that certain pieces are designed to blend into the background subtlety, whereas others are definitely meant to draw your attention (like the beacons). There are certainly themes that stick in my mind more than others (like the Rohan theme, or the Lothlorien elves lament for Gandalf). I'll admit that I don't always hear the distinctions right away (for example, differences between Rivendell and Lothlorien themes), so I appreciate being able to learn about them from others.



And yes, now I need to go back and watch the movies again!

Smile


Kim
Valinor


Nov 18 2013, 3:54am

Post #27 of 58 (250 views)
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Wow, that's really cool [In reply to] Can't Post

that you got to fly over the mountains where the beacons sequence was filmed! I would guess a lot of people hear that music in their heads in that situation. Smile


sador
Half-elven


Nov 18 2013, 7:10am

Post #28 of 58 (255 views)
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I didn't find it either [In reply to] Can't Post

I've failed to find a post by Roheryn (I think) in which she mentioned one of her children noticing that Azog rates a snatch of the Nazgul theme.

Roheryn did discuss this scene here,
and more extensively here (that might have been what you've meant by falling thirds).
But in neither place did she mention her children.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Nov 18 2013, 9:35am

Post #29 of 58 (240 views)
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Thanks for checking, Sador, I must be muddling things up [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've failed to find a post by Roheryn (I think) in which she mentioned one of her children noticing that Azog rates a snatch of the Nazgul theme.

Roheryn did discuss this scene here,
and more extensively here (that might have been what you've meant by falling thirds).
But in neither place did she mention her children.

noWizardme: Darn it, why do I keep getting stuck in the quotes box.
I was misremembering this as being one of a series of very intelligent questions from Roheryn Minor that Roheryn put up on the site (there was also one about why the White Council was so called). What I was misremembering was that using the Prologue/Mordor theme for Azog immediately suggested to Roheryn's Minor that Azog is in league with Sauron. Or at least evil. Which I thought was an acute observation of something very interesting put into the music. Creating that ambiguous suggestions would probably be hard to do visually, but the score can do it very successfully and subliminally.


Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Nov 18 2013, 9:36am)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Nov 18 2013, 9:40am

Post #30 of 58 (243 views)
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Delighted to have "a long answer" and more information! [In reply to] Can't Post

I also really should already have commented on how well you pitched this piece: it would have been very easy to lapse into technical language which many of us would have struggled with. One could end up with what I've hear called "the sleeve note problem": where either the notes are only comprehensible to those who are equipped notice those things in the music for themselves. Well avoided!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


sador
Half-elven


Nov 18 2013, 10:53am

Post #31 of 58 (246 views)
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A beautiful essay! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a few comments, or questions:

You've stated that the Rivendell theme varies throughout LotR, darkening in TT and RotK. Do you think this is connected to the evil which spreads from Mordor, or to the darkness which falls upon Arwen (compare the Silmarillion, in which a shadow falls on Doriath when Beren is sent to seek the Silmaril, and Luthien sings no longer)? Is there any way to answer this question based on the music score? For instance, is the Rivendell music in AUJ even brighter than that in FotR?
You've suggested that the division of the choral Lothlorien music suggests an ambiguity, or uncertanity regarding the Lorien elves and their intentions. What of the music accompanying Frodo's vision of Galadriel in Shelob's Lair? Is it also uncertain? Is it dreamy, or hallucinatiory in any respect?
According to Treebeard, the name "Lothlorien" means "Dreamflower". Is this expressed in any way in the music?
I relly loved your note regarding the use of the Helm's Deep and Khazad-dum music in AUJ. Thank you! But will it work the other way round? In a decade's time, viewers will possibly see all six movies in order - starting with The Hobbit, then moving to LotR. Is this tacit assumption that the audience is familiar with the LotR trilogy an extra layer which will be lost, or is the AUJ score as effective in foreshadowing the LotR films? Perhaps this can only be answered after we see (and hear!) the full trilogy.
Could you explain what do you mean by your statement that the main theme for AUJ is "unmistakenly Dwarfish"? I understand your point, but could you enlarge on how this is achieved?
You've noted that in the Hobbiton scenes, the main theme is played by a flute or clarinet, depending on the setting. What is the effect of these two instruments? And could you give any examples?
How is the music associated with Gollum - more specifically, in the Smeagol-Deagol sequence, connected to the Hobbit themes?
No questions regarding your facinating discussion of the music associated with the Mannish cultures - except that I would have expected the Rohan theme to be more simple and straightforward, and the Gondorian more sophisticated. And what does it mean that it is more "modern and sleek"?
I understand that the music associated with the Enemy will require another essay; but do you have anything to add about the Ents?

All in all, a fascinating essay, making me aware of another layer which I have no doubt felt unconciously before, but never understood. Thank you!



sador
Half-elven


Nov 18 2013, 10:55am

Post #32 of 58 (222 views)
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Seconded! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ida
The Shire

Nov 18 2013, 11:14am

Post #33 of 58 (229 views)
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With regards to the writing [In reply to] Can't Post

I tried to keep it 'simple', noWizardme. I have no music theory background at all, which is sometimes a hard thing to get around when you're studying music, but I have managed so far. I have come across people who thinks it's weird that I can't read music, but as my academic advisor once said (and she's great) "you can have musical competence, without having musical knowledge"; which basically means that just because you can't read music (the knowledge bit) you have probably surrounded yourself with music for many years, so you do have a competence in talking about it.

That was a bit of a waffle, but I do think that point deserved a mention. For me, it's important to be able to write about music so that everyone can understand m point. If I went about talking about ostinatos, melismas and cadences, I would quickly lose people, and I think that's a shame.

So yeah, I have tried to keep the language 'everyday', because, in the end, you all made these associations in regards to the music, but it is insanely hard to put it into words, so I 'just' did that ;)


Ida
The Shire

Nov 18 2013, 12:29pm

Post #34 of 58 (247 views)
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That's a lot of questions! [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'll try my best, sador!

- Rivendell
I think the reason to the darkening tone of the Rivendell theme is probably to be found in quite a few places, and after all, an interpretation (which is what I've given) is just that: an interpretation. I think you're right in pointing out Arwens role, but I also think it's because Middle Earth is moving towards an age dominated by the race of Men, and not Elves. I've just had a quick listen to the Rivendell theme from FoTR and AUJ, and I can't really tell if there's a difference, but it's an interesting point!

- Galadriel/Lothlorien:
I tried finding the clip on Frodo in Shelob's lair online, but simply couldn't (and haven't got time at the moment to find my films) but I reckon that Frodo's view of Galadriel at that point is different from when the Fellowship enters Lothlorien for the first time. He has seen her temptation to the Ring, and seen her overcome it and resign to her fate of leaving Middle Earth, so I think that would come out in the music? As I remember it, it stood out to me as a glimmer of hope. Not sure on the "Dreamflower" name, to me, there's nothing in the music that has flower connotations.

- Relation between films:
I do think that some of it will work in chronological order (story wise), the Elves 'hunting' in AUJ and going to war in TTT, works fine for me, with regards to the Dwarves, and the music we hear in Khazad-Dūm, it really depends on what Shore does in the next two Hobbit films. Also bear in mind that Moria was a different Dwarven kingdom, so it doesn't necessarily have to have the exact same theme as the Erebor Dwarves, but some likeness would be expected.

- The Dwarfish theme of AUJ:
I simply meant that the theme of the film didn't leave much room for Hobbit music, it was all dominated by the Dwarves: it is built on their theme (Misty Mountains song), and as such, it signals them going on a quest to find something from their past. If you listen to the melody line (basically, the melody you're humming along to) during Thorin's song in Bag End, and then compare with the AUJ theme, they are very much identical, but of course the theme has a full orchestration.

- Concerning Hobbits (I couldn't help myself):
The flute is quite a simple sound for me, and the fact that it's associated quite heavily with Irish folk music, makes it a perfect fit to the Hobbit culture, in my view. However, this is only to describe the overall view of Hobbits, as lovers of nature, of home, and of family. We also see the Hobbits outside the Shire, we see them bee sad, heroic and scared. The clarinet sound is more warm and a bit deeper, Doug Adams describes it as "stately" and I guess it's just a bit more refined and developed?

- Gollum/Smeagol
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to pass this one over, cause I feel that could be an essay in itself. The fact that Smeagol was once a Hobbit, could mean he gets some Hobbit-like music, but he's been in possession of the Ring for so many years, that the Ring theme has quite a hold on his music, I think. (As a side note, I really love the Ring theme, it's so seductive). I listened to the music from the scene where Deagol and Smeagol finds the ring, and it has got a few Hobbity sounds; there's definitely a stand out melody, possibly on clarinet or oboe, I can't really tell them apart, my ears are not that finely tuned, but it quickly disappears and gets taken over by the Ring theme, which also dominates the score for Riddles In The Dark from AUJ.

-Rohan and Gondor:
I see Rohan as a more ancient culture, or at least more in touch with that side? They clearly live off the land, and are proud of their horses, whereas Gondor seems more like a trade city to me, because they have access to the sea. I can see your point on Rohan being more simple (I won't say less evolved) but I think their culture is so rich. You can see it in the design as well, they are very Viking like, earthy colours of green and brown and red, gold, and wood all around. Gondor on the other hand is quite stark, white, grey, black, silver. Their design is just very harsh (I find) and stern, and I think that's why Rohan gets little twirls in their music, to fit with their design, and Gondor get something, very, eh, black and white, for lack of a better expression.

- Ents
Absolutely no comment on the Ents, haha! I specifically didn't include them in the essay, because I felt they stood outside the other races, and because, frankly, there just wasn't room. Again, Doug Adam's book talks about them, and their relation the the themes of Nature in the films, so that might be worth a read :)

Also, another note on my writing: I am Danish, so English isn't my first language, although I do consider myself being fluent in English, there might be turns or phrases that sounds a bit strange, especially when talking about how music makes me feel, because I obviously have a larger vocabulary in Danish, than I do in English.

Right, I do hope that I answered all of your comments, some more in depth than others, but there you go :) Thanks for reading and commenting!


Timdalf
Rivendell


Nov 18 2013, 1:37pm

Post #35 of 58 (237 views)
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Solid essay [In reply to] Can't Post

But might I suggest it have been clearer to use the word "cutures" rather than "races". Races implies a whole other area of (unnecessary in my view) controversy. And cultures seems to be the preferred term by Shore himself, and Adams. (Adams 2010, pp. xi, 1, 11, etc.)


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Nov 18 2013, 4:27pm

Post #36 of 58 (200 views)
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I know little about music [In reply to] Can't Post

And I prefer it that way. Dissecting it in my head removes me from experiencing it in a more organic way. That being said, I enjoyed your essay very much because it wasn't overly technical, at least to this layman's ears. Smile
I gleaned just enough new perspective to want to dig up my LOTR cd's and have another close listen.

And I think it is a testament to Mr. Shore that while his score works beautifully hand in hand with PJ's storytelling, you don't need it in order to appreciate the length and breadth of its aural tapestry. I don't think that's necessarily true of most musical scores.

Well done, Ida, and thank you for a delicious essay in listening. Smile

Welcome more children to Middle Earth. Support The S.H.I.R.E. Project!


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Nov 18 2013, 4:34pm

Post #37 of 58 (197 views)
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Yes, the use of the word "race" smacks of pejoratives [In reply to] Can't Post

But that is in RL. In Middle-earth, a fantasy world, it need not be. I think Ida's use of the word is valid, and I personally do not find her choosing it objectionable.

Smile

Welcome more children to Middle Earth. Support The S.H.I.R.E. Project!


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Nov 18 2013, 4:38pm

Post #38 of 58 (191 views)
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you can have musical competence, without having musical knowledge" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I tried to keep it 'simple', noWizardme. I have no music theory background at all, which is sometimes a hard thing to get around when you're studying music, but I have managed so far. I have come across people who thinks it's weird that I can't read music, but as my academic advisor once said (and she's great) "you can have musical competence, without having musical knowledge"; which basically means that just because you can't read music (the knowledge bit) you have probably surrounded yourself with music for many years, so you do have a competence in talking about it.

That was a bit of a waffle, but I do think that point deserved a mention. For me, it's important to be able to write about music so that everyone can understand m point. If I went about talking about ostinatos, melismas and cadences, I would quickly lose people, and I think that's a shame.

So yeah, I have tried to keep the language 'everyday', because, in the end, you all made these associations in regards to the music, but it is insanely hard to put it into words, so I 'just' did that ;)


You sure can you can "have musical competence, without having musical knowledge" Dave Brubeck for instance: learned to read sheet music very late in his career. Don't think it held him back.

Oh- that makes me realise I know of 2 more 5/4 pieces:
Brubeck's Take 5
One my son composed for music GCSE (school exam taken at 16)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Nov 18 2013, 4:46pm

Post #39 of 58 (200 views)
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I believe [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien also used the term "race" so while to our modern ears out in real life we may have associations with that word, in the confines of ME discussion I believe it is more the norm because we are referencing the good Professor.

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings



Ida
The Shire

Nov 18 2013, 5:43pm

Post #40 of 58 (199 views)
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"Race" vs. "culture" [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally get the point you're making, but I'm gonna stick to my use of the word "race". To me, race is biologically defined, whereas culture is, well, culturally defined, and I do think there's a subtle difference. As someone else has said, I think Tolkien used "race of Men" but I am not entirely sure, as it's been ages since I've read the books. I do know that it's used in the film, which is what I've based my essay on. Also, I don't see anything wrong with talking about race, that's just biological fact; except of course if it becomes derogatory, but I don't think my essay was like that ;)

Anyway, as I said, I get your point, but I myself will stick to talking about "races" in Middle Earth :)


(This post was edited by Ida on Nov 18 2013, 5:44pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 18 2013, 7:24pm

Post #41 of 58 (196 views)
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Interesting points on race vs culture [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I totally get the point you're making, but I'm gonna stick to my use of the word "race". To me, race is biologically defined, whereas culture is, well, culturally defined, and I do think there's a subtle difference. As someone else has said, I think Tolkien used "race of Men" but I am not entirely sure, as it's been ages since I've read the books. I do know that it's used in the film, which is what I've based my essay on. Also, I don't see anything wrong with talking about race, that's just biological fact; except of course if it becomes derogatory, but I don't think my essay was like that ;)

Anyway, as I said, I get your point, but I myself will stick to talking about "races" in Middle Earth :)




Because we have no true multiple, biological 'races' per se as does Middle-earth! A subtle difference to the real world perceptions of the term!

I do like your use of the term in this context. BTW I see English is not your first language so I commend you for your facility and expressiveness in it. Cool

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Nov 18 2013, 8:46pm

Post #42 of 58 (197 views)
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Aha- Roheryn found the post for me [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=600645#600645

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 19 2013, 3:28am

Post #43 of 58 (172 views)
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Thanks, to both Furincurunir and Roheryn! [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool For finding that bit. I commented on the time how good a point that was, as it escaped me with its subtlety of how it differed from some of the other Mordor themes but gives the same sense of menace and impending doom as Thorin approaches Azog.

Fun thread to read BTW! Loved reading again what the kids had to say. Heart

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Nov 19 2013, 9:31am

Post #44 of 58 (170 views)
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Tolkien uses "race" many times in LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

I count 50 uses in my eBook version (as a term for a group of creatures: I thought of eliminating. "Race" as in "100 metres sprint").

So dwarves, elves, men etc. are "races" in Middle-earth. There is also a Sindarian race or a race of Elendil. It's not a precise term, evidently.

We probably should not be dragging into Middle-earth the unhappy associations and political controversies that there words have I real life. But I know this is hard: I myself wriggle a bit over Tolkiens use of "Men" to mean men and women.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 19 2013, 1:35pm

Post #45 of 58 (148 views)
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I agree completely here [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

We probably should not be dragging into Middle-earth the unhappy associations and political controversies that there words have I real life. The use of the word is quite different, I agree. And as you point out not even necessarily consistent (with a narrow or defined categorizing anyway). But I know this is hard: I myself wriggle a bit over Tolkiens use of "Men" to mean men and women. This seems to be a blanket term, very much lie the concept of 'race' in that he is grouping the sexes into the biological subgroup. I gave it some thought, and for my part I am fine with it as a group terminology. I have a hard time coming up with another term that might work and not sound to modern (though others here may come up with a clever idea, I am sure). I'm just guessing, but does it bother you (as we well know your fair-minded and egalitarian nature) because it is exclusive of mentioning females in the sense of 'men' being the male term?


The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Ida
The Shire

Nov 19 2013, 4:12pm

Post #46 of 58 (141 views)
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The race of Men (and women!) [In reply to] Can't Post

The feminist in me finds it annoying and problematic that the word 'Men' is used as a blanket term. In the case of Tolkien, though, it is a sign of the time that he lived in, and it comes across in his writing. I have tried to mention both men and woman, like in 'the men and women of Rohan' since I think we should be careful of excluding the women. Anyway, that is just a side note.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Nov 19 2013, 5:02pm

Post #47 of 58 (135 views)
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Yes, I'm often bothered by "men"! (ahem - please note the quotation marks) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
We probably should not be dragging into Middle-earth the unhappy associations and political controversies that there words [race] have in real life. The use of the word is quite different, I agree. And as you point out not even necessarily consistent (with a narrow or defined categorizing anyway). But I know this is hard: I myself wriggle a bit over Tolkiens use of "Men" to mean men and women. This seems to be a blanket term, very much lie the concept of 'race' in that he is grouping the sexes into the biological subgroup. I gave it some thought, and for my part I am fine with it as a group terminology. I have a hard time coming up with another term that might work and not sound to modern (though others here may come up with a clever idea, I am sure). I'm just guessing, but does it bother you (as we well know your fair-minded and egalitarian nature) because it is exclusive of mentioning females in the sense of 'men' being the male term?


I meant that,in real-life it is my preference not to use "men" to denote a group of humans that are, or could be men and women. I would prefer to use "people", "humans" etc. Yes, my concern is the equality one. But the use of "men" in such contexts is something that has a long history; and it bothers some people but not others. Anyway, I very much doubt that this is the forum to discuss gender-specific language, except insofar as it is to do with Tolkien's works.

What we don't have in real life is the Middle-earth situation where there are several kinds of bipedial sentient, talking hominid creature- including elves, dwarves, hobbits, and the group Tolkien chose to call Men- which you might want to differentiate from each other,. Whether those "kinds" are races, species, ring species etc. is a mapping onto the very unclear and controversial situations in real life - all speculation.

Anyway, I suppose, objecting to Tolkien using "Men" is a bit like objecting to him using "elves" for creatures who aren't santa's helpers, and don't make shoes overnight for needy shoemakers... He's made up these creatures, and given them these names. Who am I to argue with him within his own works? By my own logic there is therefore nothing odd at all about the following passages:

"The ladies of Queen Arwen's court were all men of good character."

or
"Although it was sometimes difficult to understand his elven wife, Aragorn loved her dearly and never wished he had married a man."

...because they refer to "men" a Middle-earth situation. (Whether there would be anything odd about a real-life man called Aragorn marrying a man is of course, an entirely different debate, and also not one to get into here). But:

"The ladies of Queen Anne's court were all men of good character." needs copy-editing.


These days I tend to like "Men" as a Middle-earth biological group, "men" as the gender-specific (so Eowyn, say, is a Man but not a man; a distinction which works out well for her and Faramir, but rather badly for the Witch King).


One gets into different knots wondering how to deploy words which refer only to men and women in real life: "are dwarves or elves or hobbits 'human'?"

The only instance of "human" in my LOTR eBook is a description of the figures at the bridge to Minas Morghul

Quote
...carven with cunning in forms human and bestial, but all corrupt and loathsome...

...which doesn't help much. So I don't use "human" re Middle-earth to mean "Men"

How about "people" - 'The Peoples of Middle-earth' contains stuff about elves and dwarves, so I infer that dwarves, elves, hobbits etc. are 'people'. Which seems natural to me. So I don't use "People"


And of course, it would be pretty silly to have some guard at Erebor shout: "A dragon is coming! Dwarf the defences!!"

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Nov 19 2013, 5:07pm

Post #48 of 58 (128 views)
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It would be smurf-like!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

And of course, it would be pretty silly to have some guard at Erebor shout: "A dragon is coming! Dwarf the defences!!

-noWizardme



Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!

(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Nov 19 2013, 5:08pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 19 2013, 6:18pm

Post #49 of 58 (109 views)
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Side note duly noted ida! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The feminist in me finds it annoying and problematic that the word 'Men' is used as a blanket term. In the case of Tolkien, though, it is a sign of the time that he lived in, and it comes across in his writing. I have tried to mention both men and woman, like in 'the men and women of Rohan' since I think we should be careful of excluding the women. Anyway, that is just a side note.


The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 19 2013, 6:23pm

Post #50 of 58 (117 views)
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Musings on 'men' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
.

"Although it was sometimes difficult to understand his elven wife, Aragorn loved her dearly and never wished he had married a man." Well this bit made my day. Thank you Furincurunir! Point taken though that contextually the blanket 'men' offers some (wildly amusing) troubles!


And of course, it would be pretty silly to have some guard at Erebor shout: "A dragon is coming! Dwarf the defences!!" Yes 'Dwarfing' the defenses seems like quote the wrong move in that circumstance. And I'm sure the Dwarves in general would take exception to our modern use of the term indicating reduction. I picture a very peeved Dwarf Ambassador. Laugh


The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!




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