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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I hear people all over the internet keep saying Azog looks like a cartoon or an 'orc you'd expect in a pixar movie...
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HiddenSpring
Lorien

Nov 17 2013, 1:11am

Post #26 of 70 (427 views)
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Photographs and films are different beasts [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog does look convincingly real in that picture, even though the design is still as insipid as ever. (And no, I don't hold a grudge because he's alive. I never remember Bolg when I think about the book either; the orcs are a non-issue to me).

But things are very different in motion. Radagast's hedgehog looks real in still shots as well. In the film, however, you can tell it's fake from a thousand miles away.

Ultimately, I could get past that if Azog wasn't so boring. It all comes down to such a tedious character being given so much unnecessary screentime. It will all be righted when Smaug puts Azog's pseudo-villainy to shame Smile


(This post was edited by HiddenSpring on Nov 17 2013, 1:14am)


sycorax82
Rohan

Nov 17 2013, 1:13am

Post #27 of 70 (438 views)
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It's not the CGI most people have a problem with, it's his design [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that he's CGI as opposed to prosthetics doesn't matter. Okay, the CGI was rushed, so that doesn't make his look seem as 'solid' as Gollum or the Great Goblin, but it's still largely irrelevant.

His design is crap. I am sorry but it is. The worst major design across all 6 films (anything we have seen from DoS and TaBA is better). His stupid little ears...

Azog reminds me a bit of the bad guy in The Mask (when he puts the mask on) crossed with the ropey CGI Imhotep from the Mummy films, with a bit of Na'avi thrown in for good measure.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 1:14am

Post #28 of 70 (443 views)
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Part of the reason i don't like him is [In reply to] Can't Post

that to me he's so incongruous with the rest of the, well, everything, in PJ's Middle-earth. Also, i just think that it's very poor design-- his entire head/neck/body shape and his facial expressions all look very awkward to me, and very Dungeons & Dragons-y (the terrible movies, not the game). And that's not even mentioning the actor's performance or the change to Tolkien's far superior history for the character. It all adds up to what i consider to be the only complete failure in all of these films.


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Nov 17 2013, 1:20am)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2013, 1:15am

Post #29 of 70 (423 views)
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Nigh impossible? I do not agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

Those Goblins in prosthetics were wearing big bulky animatronic masks that they could hardly see out of.

The Orcs in prosthetics, on the other hand, did not wear animatronic masks. In fact, the Orc prosthetics aren't really very much more than the Dwarf prosthetics. And I haven't noticed any movement-restriction on the part of the prosthetic-wearing Orcs in any of the films.

Besides, what did Azog do in AUJ that a normal fit person couldn't have done while wearing prosthetics?


Nira
Lorien


Nov 17 2013, 1:20am

Post #30 of 70 (421 views)
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My latest theory: Azog looks fake because he doesn't have enough dirt on him. Orcs should be dirtier than Gollum.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise


Na Vedui
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 1:29am

Post #31 of 70 (429 views)
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You may have got something here [In reply to] Can't Post

Though I must say that Azog and co themselves have grown on me as I''ve got used to them. But what I'm still finding unsatisfactory is action footage where everyone blurs past so quickly that you can't see who is doing what (as opposed to "character" action moments, like Thorin and Bilbo facing Azog). My impression is that there seems to be rather more of that in AUJ than there was in LOTR. Compare, for instance, the fight by Balin's tomb in Moria in FOTR with the fight with the trolls in AUJ or when they're being hustled along by the goblins. Do you think this is a function of more digital imagery and less real stuff, or of shooting for 3-D as well as 2-D - or am I imagining it (or in need of new spectaclesShocked), or what?


Bishop
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 1:50am

Post #32 of 70 (410 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

that has less to do with the frame rate (which actually makes the action much more fluid than 24fps), and more to do with situational action and action staging.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 2:45am

Post #33 of 70 (400 views)
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Yes, it has to do with [In reply to] Can't Post

blocking, framing, coverage, and editing. All of which seem much less in evidence this time around.

I must admit that it took me several viewings to even get a sense of what was going on on-screen much of the time in the Goblin Town sequences, and even the seemingly simple Troll fight was a bit of a visual mess i thought. That just wasn't the case with LotR. I still watch those battles (Parth Galen, Helm's Deep, Pellenor Fields) and am amazed at how clear all the character beats are-- who is doing what, and where-- all the while remaining exciting and completely involving, building the tension to a satisfying conslusion. Some of the best on-screen battles i've ever seen, and entirely effective to this day.

In AUJ, there are just too many shots of digital doubles running about, with no real investment in what the characters are experiencing.


Elskidor
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 2:58am

Post #34 of 70 (356 views)
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I dunno [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Someone who claims he looks like a video game and not real, please tell me how. To me he honestly looks real. The skin tissue, flesh tones, lighting, texture mapping and muscle structure look virtually flawless. He looks real to me. For those who say he looks fake or like a video game character, could you tell me where the flaws are??


The important thing is that you don't feel that way. Heck, I joined the forums liking Azog, and I hear people bash his looks or his character all the time, and is doesn't change my opinion. Heck, I'm changing my avatar for now just because I wanna, lol! He appearance and character may grow on others in the course of the next two movies, or at least where it won't be such a long dragged on topic.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 3:22am

Post #35 of 70 (366 views)
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Maybe Azog is an unusually hygiene-conscious orc? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
He apparently brushes his teeth, too... And now I'm imagining little tubes of toothpaste with a smiling orc on the front. Laugh



In Reply To
My latest theory: Azog looks fake because he doesn't have enough dirt on him. Orcs should be dirtier than Gollum.

In Reply To




"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Nov 17 2013, 4:15am

Post #36 of 70 (357 views)
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People are entitled to their opinion. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just
because they didnt like Azog is no reason for you to get upset.

Me? Yes he looks fake. Poorly crafted. And annoyingly an unnecessary
addition.

Even my little cousin (who likes the film)t hought he was not scary at
all and would rather prefer the orc-chief over Azog as the villain.

And everybody knows WETA stole the design from the WoW videogame, which is most
probably unrelated to Tolkien in all ways.. ;) :P

(This post was edited by Smeagol Bagginsess on Nov 17 2013, 4:22am)


FoundEntwife
Rivendell


Nov 17 2013, 6:45am

Post #37 of 70 (319 views)
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Eh [In reply to] Can't Post

he looks real to me too. In fact, i think he looks really creepy. But yes, I'm waiting for Smaug's badassery!

This tale grew in the telling. . .






http://pencilword.blogspot.com


tarasaurus
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 8:31am

Post #38 of 70 (300 views)
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yes, this [In reply to] Can't Post

I really enjoy Azog, both his part in the story as well as what he looks like. Even though his design was done within the last few weeks before the premiere, he truly looks wonderful for only having that long to create him.

But about the prosthetics, if they had kept the actors in prosthetics in the movie with them constantly over-heating, their movements would have looked way too stiff and limited, much worse than they or Azog would look as CG.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 10:32am

Post #39 of 70 (303 views)
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If DoS and TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

Give a Google explanation why it made sense for the movies to have two major Orcs, I am fine with that. He sure served his purpose in AUJ.

His looks are good as well imho. Just wouldn't made him so white.

I find it rather funny how much bashing he gets from some corners especially movie blogs. Especially when I read what movies they considered great CGI. Lol.

Well, I guess it is a compliment that these movies and WETA get such a double standard.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Wordofmask
Lorien

Nov 17 2013, 10:43am

Post #40 of 70 (282 views)
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Come on [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if he looks like video game characters for me I dont see any problem at all. Game and Movie are close relative.

However Azog looks really cruel and brutal .............. at early of the movie. I think it was a facial expression of him that made him less realistic.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 10:57am

Post #41 of 70 (278 views)
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It's not that he looks like a videogame character, [In reply to] Can't Post

It's that he looks like a bad videogame character. For me, it's not about the CGI, which i think is fine, if a bit unpolished, which is understandable given the time constraints Weta was under. The videogame comparison, for me, has more to do with the character's cheezy, run of the mill villain design, like a cheap God of War knock-off. It's the overall design, not the amount of polygons, shaders and textures.


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Nov 17 2013, 10:59am)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 11:13am

Post #42 of 70 (266 views)
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I think it would be nigh impossible [In reply to] Can't Post

Initially the Goblin actors were wearing full prosthetics, that is bulky full body suits, including complete coverings for their heads. Later animatronic masks were used on their heads, which at least left one part of the body free(ish). Have you seen the bonus footage included with the EE? It explains the way the Goblins were developed very well, and is well worth taking a look at.

The stuntmen and others who were playing the Goblins were keeling over from exhaustion, and in addition the body suits restricted their movements.

The Dwarves did not wear full prosthetics. They wore short gloves, with the exception of Graham McTavish, who wore 'gloves' right up to the elbow to make his arms look more bulky. At the end of a day's shoot, when the gloves were taken off his arms, sweat would literally pour out of the gloves. The same happened with the feet of the Hobbits and the shorter gloves of the other Dwarves. The Dwarf actors also did not wear full prosthetics on their faces, and said that they did not find the bits that they did wear too uncomfortable (though the bulkiness of their clothing and padding made them very hot under the lights, so they constantly had to cool off).

Additionally, as was mentioned in the bonus footage, the prosthetics restricted the movements of the actors, preventing fluidity of movement. CGI enabled the characters to move properly – and Azog moves very well – as well as to convey facial expressions that would not be possible with a face that was covered with heavy prosthetics.

It's all very well getting minor Orcs and Goblins, who appear in the films only briefly, to wear prosthetics, but it would be inhuman to expect actors with major parts – who need to do a good job of acting – to do so for the prolonged periods of time that would be required for the fulfilment of their roles. It would also not produce the most convincing results, for the above reasons.


In Reply To
Those Goblins in prosthetics were wearing big bulky animatronic masks that they could hardly see out of.

The Orcs in prosthetics, on the other hand, did not wear animatronic masks. In fact, the Orc prosthetics aren't really very much more than the Dwarf prosthetics. And I haven't noticed any movement-restriction on the part of the prosthetic-wearing Orcs in any of the films.

Besides, what did Azog do in AUJ that a normal fit person couldn't have done while wearing prosthetics?



Elskidor
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 11:17am

Post #43 of 70 (274 views)
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Eww. We hates nasty WoWssess for ever! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

And everybody knows WETA stole the design from the WoW videogame, which is most
probably unrelated to Tolkien in all ways.. ;) :P


I don't see the connection to Azog to a cheesy 2004 cartoony game. Yet, if they did then it's the circle of life for WoW was just a ripoff MMO that stole from the classic (and far superior) Everquest. But down the line Everquest, just as nearly everyone in the fantasy genre, stole bits and pieces of Tolkien's world, and put it within their own world. So if Azog was a ripoff design from an mmo (fail to find a decent picture to compare), then somewhere down the line, and at the roots, we will find that Azog still stems from Tolkien.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2013, 12:13pm

Post #44 of 70 (250 views)
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The animatronic masks... [In reply to] Can't Post

...were the "prosthetic" masks you are thinking of. They were basically full masks that had moving facial parts, hence they were "animatronic". That was what the Goblins were originally wearing. The actors couldn't see out of those animatronic masks, so Jackson had them go mask-less and just CGI'd the faces in instead. Yes, I did see the EE, that's where I got my info from.

The Orcs like Yazneg and Fimbul, the ones who were "guys in make-up", were not wearing those masks, and really weren't wearing much more prosthetics than the Dwarves were. The Orcs might be wearing some arm and leg prosthetics, but nothing enough to restrict their movement any more than the Dwarves' "fat suits" (and no Bombur wasn't the only one to wear body padding). Watch the section on Azanubizar in the EE, you'll see that many of the Orcs in the battle were guys in prosthetics, and they didn't look like their movements were being restricted. Plus, I do not recall the much better-looking Orcs from LotR seeming to have too many problems moving around - they seemed to move around just fine. And as I said, there was nothing Azog did in the first film that couldn't have been done by an actor in prosthetics.

As for facial expressions, you're right about that. But I don't really think Orcs need to show a range of facial expressions. They aren't deep characters who need to get their emotions across, they are one-dimensional villains.


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 1:01pm

Post #45 of 70 (280 views)
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I'm sorry you get cancer occasionally... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a pretty serious disease. Kudos on surviving so long.

I find Azog to be a problem. Not because of his CGI, which was admitted by the production to be "last minute", but by his complete lack of creativity.

He is a major villain in the films, and is one huge cliche' IMO. Nothing about him is distinct from any other typical villain in a film or a video game. He hulks around, speaking of death and vengeance, and has his minions do his dirty work. He shows no sense of individuality whatsoever.

I was embarrassed in front of my friends when I saw him on screen.

If you like him that's fine, but don't act all high and mighty because others don't. And DON'T make a joke out of cancer. My father has prostate cancer. I'm sure it wasn't Azog who gave it to him.

Geez..

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 1:06pm

Post #46 of 70 (230 views)
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I'm not sure [In reply to] Can't Post

But weren't the chaps who were playing Yazneg and Fimbul (not quite sure who they are in the film, in fact, since they didn't register with me) not wearing very bulky body suits? I think these are made of some kind of plastic, like those of the Goblin stuntmen. It's wearing these suits that makes it very difficult for many of the actors, I believe. The Dwarves were not wearing them – they had much lighter body padding, and more or less facial prosthetics, depending on the Dwarf.

Yes, I did notice that the Orcs outside Moria were in full prosthetics, but they did not play major parts in the film, like Azog does. It was actually quite difficult to see what was going on in that battle, beyond all the hacking and the action with Thorin, so any 'mistakes' could probably easily be hidden.

I didn't find that the Orcs in LOTR looked 'comfortable' (they looked quite stiff to me), and they played minor roles in the films, so the actors could probably endure all the heavy prosthetics for the time it took to film them (I'm thinking of Lurtz and the 'man flesh' Orcs in particular, who I felt were the best realised of the LOTR Orcs). I also don't think the Orcs in LOTR were better looking than the ones in AUJ.

I agree that most of the Orcs do not need to show a wide range of facial expressions. However, a character like Azog, who is a major villain, must be able to do so. I think the expressions on his face were well done. The only thing that jars a bit for me when it comes to Azog is his very pale colouring, which makes him look a bit too stone-like for my preference.

I suppose it all comes down to personal preference, doesn't it…


In Reply To
. The Orcs like Yazneg and Fimbul, the ones who were "guys in make-up", were not wearing those masks, and really weren't wearing much more prosthetics than the Dwarves were. The Orcs might be wearing some arm and leg prosthetics, but nothing enough to restrict their movement any more than the Dwarves' "fat suits" (and no Bombur wasn't the only one to wear body padding). Watch the section on Azanubizar in the EE, you'll see that many of the Orcs in the battle were guys in prosthetics, and they didn't look like their movements were being restricted. Plus, I do not recall the much better-looking Orcs from LotR seeming to have too many problems moving around - they seemed to move around just fine. And as I said, there was nothing Azog did in the first film that couldn't have been done by an actor in prosthetics.

As for facial expressions, you're right about that. But I don't really think Orcs need to show a range of facial expressions. They aren't deep characters who need to get their emotions across, they are one-dimensional villains.



Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2013, 1:37pm

Post #47 of 70 (224 views)
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Here is a picture of Orcs in prosthetics... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130130173947/lotr/images/1/1d/Orcs_t600.jpg

As you can see, it isn't nearly as bad as the suits that the Goblins were wearing. And not a whole hell of a lot more than what most of the Dwarves wore. To me, these Orcs look much more real than the CGI ones.

And I really didn't think the LotR Orcs looked "stiff" in the least. Gothmog, Lurtz, Gorbag, Grishnakh, Shagrat - they all moved around just fine IMO. For me, it is a case of "if it ain't broke, why fix it?" But different strokes I guess...


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 17 2013, 1:38pm)


Elskidor
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 1:43pm

Post #48 of 70 (201 views)
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Nice link [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130130173947/lotr/images/1/1d/Orcs_t600.jpg



I really like these Orcs! These Orcs and LoTR Orcs are awesome to me, but I just don't have an issue with Azog either, I guess. Sorry some people do. They are all creepy, scary and I wouldn't wanna meet any of them in real life..I'd probably pee myself and run.


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 1:46pm

Post #49 of 70 (227 views)
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Movement is where the flaws lie...among other things. [In reply to] Can't Post

Why can't you understand this?

If you were to make a statistic of how much effort was put into Gollum vs. how much effort was put into Azog...Gollum would win hands down. And it shows.

Azog was rushed. Even the people who made the film admit this. His CGI is still pretty good, but it's not quite on par with other works released recently.

Stop trying to force others to agree with you please.

And mods, please delete this comment and the OPs comment about cancer. I find it highly immature and offensive.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

(This post was edited by jtarkey on Nov 17 2013, 1:49pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 2:02pm

Post #50 of 70 (184 views)
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Yes, I've seen that picture [In reply to] Can't Post

I do believe they are wearing far more in the way of prosthetics than the Dwarves were, judging from what I saw of the Dwarves' make-up and padding as shown in the bonus footage. I believe these 'Orcs' are wearing full body suits, you know, which the Dwarf actors were not.

I still stand by Azog, though I also like the look of these Orcs.


In Reply To
As you can see, it isn't nearly as bad as the suits that the Goblins were wearing. And not a whole hell of a lot more than what most of the Dwarves wore. To me, these Orcs look much more real than the CGI ones.

And I really didn't think the LotR Orcs looked "stiff" in the least. Gothmog, Lurtz, Gorbag, Grishnakh, Shagrat - they all moved around just fine IMO. For me, it is a case of "if it ain't broke, why fix it?" But different strokes I guess...



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Nov 17 2013, 2:02pm)

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