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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I hear people all over the internet keep saying Azog looks like a cartoon or an 'orc you'd expect in a pixar movie...
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ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 9:15pm

Post #1 of 70 (1620 views)
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I hear people all over the internet keep saying Azog looks like a cartoon or an 'orc you'd expect in a pixar movie... Can't Post

Let's put this to rest once and far all!!! I'm sick of it.

Does that:

2.bp.blogspot.com/-LlLviekTjhQ/UbkSeaNoLXI/AAAAAAAABBA/KF9WBaaujdo/s1600/DoS+Azog.jpg

really look like that:

blogs.smh.com.au/entertainment/getflickd/upSecond43.jpg


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Nov 18 2013, 1:17am)


haarp
Rivendell


Nov 16 2013, 9:19pm

Post #2 of 70 (899 views)
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8 [In reply to] Can't Post

he's just a generic villain that isn't interesting and intrudes on the story.


tsmith675
Gondor


Nov 16 2013, 9:21pm

Post #3 of 70 (838 views)
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Opinions are opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Are opinions.

"Seriously, why was the scene with CGI dwarf ass NOT in the theatrical cut?!"


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 9:22pm

Post #4 of 70 (848 views)
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So people don't actually think he looks like a pixar cartoon? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what I hear all the time. He looks real to me. Or is there something wrong with my eyes. He looks totally real!


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Nov 18 2013, 1:18am)


Cillendor
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 9:32pm

Post #5 of 70 (784 views)
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I think people think that [In reply to] Can't Post

because he's so pale. He doesn't look like a normal Orc (which was their goal), but he also doesn't really look like an Elf (which he sort-of was) or even a Man. He just looks very out-of-place. I love his design, personally, though as someone else here mentioned, he talks way too slowly to seem natural. It ruins the effect.

So honestly, I think if they'd have made him a little darker and talk a little faster, he'd have been more convincing.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 16 2013, 9:36pm

Post #6 of 70 (813 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

...he looks like a video-game character, especially in the scenes at Moria and Weathertop.

Although I really dislike what they've done with Azog story-wise, I think I'd be a tad more forgiving of that transgression if he looked a little better.


Avandel
Valinor

Nov 16 2013, 9:36pm

Post #7 of 70 (765 views)
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Not to me [In reply to] Can't Post

Think it's great mo-cap and Azog has always creeped me out - like some pale slug with legs. Which I guess is the point
- if I ever met the delicious Manu Bennet I'd have to 1) thank him for a great performance and 2) apologize as in the
movie I want Azog to die, and soon.....did I say he creeps me out?

Hardly cartoony - think people are still working around Azog being pale vs. the blackish orcs we were used to.


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 9:43pm

Post #8 of 70 (805 views)
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A videogame character?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry but...

Please....


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 16 2013, 9:52pm

Post #9 of 70 (765 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

A video-game. And I am far from being the only person who thinks this. Trust me on that Wink


Thranderz
Rohan


Nov 16 2013, 10:09pm

Post #10 of 70 (738 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe IGN made that point in their review. I think people have that idea because of how far video games have come recently and how popular they are. Anything graphically made that looks realistic is now associated with video games. Unsure

I simply walked into Mordor.


tsmith675
Gondor


Nov 16 2013, 10:11pm

Post #11 of 70 (761 views)
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Even the prosthetic orcs... [In reply to] Can't Post

look like video game characters though. I mean they can only look so realistic. To me, the way a character looks shouldn't be a problem. As good as the effects are on Gollum, he doesn't actually look real. But no one complains about that. In my opinion, and I personally have nothing against Azog's design and character, I think people shouldn't dislike the character just because the design isn't their favorite. Not saying that's the only reason you don't like Azog, but I know a lot of posters on different websites just don't like him because of the design, or because he doesn't look "real", you know, those kind of things. Everyone has an opinion though. That's just mine and I won't ever say that mine is absolutely right. It's just right for me!

"Seriously, why was the scene with CGI dwarf ass NOT in the theatrical cut?!"


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 16 2013, 10:16pm

Post #12 of 70 (728 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

...if I thought he looked realistic, I'd admit to it. I can completely tell that Azog is CGI.


patrickk
Rohan

Nov 16 2013, 10:21pm

Post #13 of 70 (738 views)
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I presume you agree that Gollum looks completely CGI [In reply to] Can't Post

... but it works due to mo-cap


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 16 2013, 10:22pm

Post #14 of 70 (708 views)
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I disagree... [In reply to] Can't Post

The prosthetic Orcs look real, because they ARE real. Obviously they are only guys in make-up, but they certainly look much more real than any CGI character.

And yes, I can tell Gollum is CGI too, but I think he looks much better than Azog. To be fair though, Gollum was finished very early on, so they really worked on him. Jackson changed his mind about Azog in the months before AUJ was released. He might look better in DoS.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 16 2013, 10:23pm

Post #15 of 70 (734 views)
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Yep... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gollum looks CGI too, but much less "painted on".


Snowghost77
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 10:28pm

Post #16 of 70 (689 views)
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azog [In reply to] Can't Post

I think some folks just cant get over the fact that PJ changed Azog's back story to the point that they are unable to look at him objectively. I imagine that had Azog done everything exactly as the book states, and been killed by dain, nobody would have had any problem with his look. We humans are funny that way

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Nov 16 2013, 10:29pm

Post #17 of 70 (689 views)
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Lots of generic villains in Tolkien's stories ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Azog looks and acts great. I can't see faults in his SFX, he looks very believable, pretty close to Gollum quality but Gollum is the darling of everyone and he's not alive when he's supposed to be dead so he doesn't get the ill will. And then there are people with such a CGI phobia that they see faults everywhere and sometimes even see CGI where there is none. Not that Azog is not CGI, just saying.

Now the wargs on the other hand... i can agree on them sometimes looking funky...


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 16 2013, 10:40pm

Post #18 of 70 (658 views)
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I wouldn't say that... [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's not impugn the motives of people who happen to disagree with you on Azog. It has been well-documented that he was a rush-job, and to some of us, it shows. My dislike of his look has nothing to do with my dislike of the changes to his story.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 16 2013, 10:47pm)


tsmith675
Gondor


Nov 16 2013, 10:42pm

Post #19 of 70 (656 views)
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Yes, that's what I meant... [In reply to] Can't Post

Those that are in prosthetics, yes they're real guys in real makeup, but they still look like guys in makeup. Orcs aren't real, so they can't look real is basically what I was trying to say. It's obvious to tell that the orcs are either men in prosthetics or just CGI. I never let that take me out of the films though, I just never really pay much attention to that stuff. The only real CGI/Green Screen scenes that stood out to me as pretty bad were the Radagast chase and the scene in the EE of the dwarves bathing. Those sort of took me out of it for a second. But other than that, I didn't have a very big problem with any of the effects in AUJ. Though, I must say, from what we've seen of DoS, the CGI does look better.

"Seriously, why was the scene with CGI dwarf ass NOT in the theatrical cut?!"


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Nov 16 2013, 11:06pm

Post #20 of 70 (652 views)
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I think the major reason I am less hard on Gollum's CGI... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is because Gollum had to be CGI. I doubt he could have worked otherwise. I give Gollum more leeway for the same reason I give the Trolls more leeway. I think Azog would have looked miles better as an actor in prosthetics. I was not a fan of the look of the CGI Orcs in general.

But I still think Azog looked like a rush-job.


Elskidor
Rohan


Nov 16 2013, 11:18pm

Post #21 of 70 (626 views)
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Video games have really came a long long way [In reply to] Can't Post

And I don't even think it's needed, nor wanted for half the video games, but it's just the way things are. I DO like Azog and the way he looks though. Very creepy, and my favorite of the Orcs thus far.

That is not to say I want all CGI Orcs though. Far from it, but it is cool to have a different one than the normal. I'm hoping to see Bolg in that scary menacing design, fighting next to Azog.


Snowghost77
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 11:39pm

Post #22 of 70 (595 views)
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I cant have an opinion on opinions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds a little double standard to me.
I wrote that this was what I think is going on, rather than stating it as fact.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you

(This post was edited by Snowghost77 on Nov 16 2013, 11:48pm)


Bishop
Rohan


Nov 16 2013, 11:45pm

Post #23 of 70 (617 views)
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Interesting point [In reply to] Can't Post

While many have discussed this before, I don't know that it ever clicked why Azog or any of the other fully CGI characters in AUJ don't appeal to me. I think Gollum was an auspicious work of genius, given that he had to be integrated into real environments using a mixture of roto, mo-cap and traditional animation techniques. This is on top of the amazing techniques developed by the VFX team to create translucent skin textures. While not ideal, this approach may have given Gollum the push he needed to crawl his way out of the uncanny valley and into VFX history.

I figure the believability of fully CGI characters it is only damaged by the presence of so many overtly CG environments. This seems counter intuitive, given that integration of a CG character in a mostly CG environment should be perfectly fluid. But looking at a scene like Moria or Weathertop, the viewer is forced to contend with the idea that it is a small number of real elements in an all CG environment. It's almost like the reverse of Gollum. Or consider the cave troll in Fellowship, an astonishing execution of CG integration that stands up today with anything in AUJ.

I believe these factors are woven into the backlash against Azog. Giving him his dues, I will say I actually like his design, and the animation is cutting edge. His character is truly menacing in a nightmarish kind of way. But I haven't been able to get behind the CG glut.


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 11:55pm

Post #24 of 70 (589 views)
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Take, for example, the picture of Azog I linked to... [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone who claims he looks like a video game and not real, please tell me how. To me he honestly looks real. The skin tissue, flesh tones, lighting, texture mapping and muscle structure look virtually flawless. He looks real to me. For those who say he looks fake or like a video game character, could you tell me where the flaws are??


(This post was edited by ecthelionsbeard on Nov 16 2013, 11:58pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 12:07am

Post #25 of 70 (573 views)
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Let them say what they like [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm fine with Azog both with the menacing way he is portrayed visually, with great movements, and especially with his great voice speaking in the Black Speech.

Given the problems there were with filming Goblins in prosthetics with even fit stunt men fainting all over the place I can see why it is nigh impossible to have an actor dressed in very heavy prosthetics, which additionally restrict movements, playing a major and prolonged part in the film. The AUJ EE extras explain this issue quite clearly and understandably.


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Nov 17 2013, 12:13am)

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