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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit: The Desolation of Sauron?
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ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 8:36pm

Post #1 of 29 (1248 views)
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The Hobbit: The Desolation of Sauron? Can't Post

Is anyone else concerned the emphasis on the necromancer/Sauron and the high fells in this movie are going to take away too much of the focus from Smaug who was always meant to be the true villain of this tale?


(This post was edited by ecthelionsbeard on Nov 16 2013, 8:38pm)


Constant Dreamer
Registered User


Nov 16 2013, 8:47pm

Post #2 of 29 (722 views)
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The Villain [In reply to] Can't Post

Except Smaug isn't really the main villain, is he? All things considered, it's Sauron at the root of this. The quest is started by Gandalf because he fears what may happen should Sauron get Smaug on his side. Smaug is the most prominent antagonist so far, but Sauron does more to move the plot whereas Smaug at this point is more of a motivation for the dwarves. More importantly, Smaug has to die at the end of this film or the beginning of the next, which means that it's crucial to build up the Necromancer as a villain to provide the plot for the third movie.


boldog
Rohan


Nov 16 2013, 8:51pm

Post #3 of 29 (609 views)
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well..... [In reply to] Can't Post

From the way I see it, sauron IS the big villain of the film on e again. He is the evil at work driving azog, bo5a, attempting to unite with smaug. The whole reason why Gandalf wished to help thorin was to stop this threat of sauron aligning with smaug. A dragon is a physically strong opponent, but sauron is a God, a magical being. Smaug is the antagonist in the novel of the hobbit, but in the whole expanded story of it, the antagonism still revolves around sauron. This is why Jacko is using the appendices so much, to show the expanded story rather then what we saw in the novel. Personally I'm more excited for sauron in this film then smaug, and I do believe that by taba he will be the chief antagonist of the trilogy, surpassing smaug by miles!

"And do you really think, Thorin Oakenshield, that Bolg will have the slightest symphony for you? After he watched you hack his fathers hand off, so ruthlessly in Moria. Azogs defeat has brought nothing to you, only refuelled hate of his kin, upon yours"


Remus
Lorien

Nov 16 2013, 8:54pm

Post #4 of 29 (617 views)
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I am worried [In reply to] Can't Post

that Sauron will have a TOO SMALL ROLE. I have the feeling it will be like only 10 minutes of Dol Guldur in this movie. The rest is for example:

Smaug 50%
Mirkwood 25%
Laketown 10%
Erebor 10%
Sauron 5%


UnimpressedUnsureUnimpressed

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


(This post was edited by Remus on Nov 16 2013, 8:56pm)


dubulous
Rohan

Nov 16 2013, 9:11pm

Post #5 of 29 (566 views)
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I'm with you [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think there's any concern about Sauron's role being too big.

In fact, Gandalf's main interest in eliminating Smaug lies in the fear he has that Smaug might ally himself with whatever evil he senses is rising again, so it all comes back to Sauron anyway.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Nov 16 2013, 9:23pm

Post #6 of 29 (563 views)
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Don't really know... [In reply to] Can't Post

...if I like the idea of Sauron being the one behind the Battle of Five Armies. By tying both Bolg and Azog to Dol Guldur and the Necromancer, it sort of looks like this is the direction Jackson is taking things.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Nov 16 2013, 9:25pm

Post #7 of 29 (601 views)
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Not really... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Smaug is the most prominent antagonist so far


So far, it seems Azog is the most prominent villain.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Nov 16 2013, 9:40pm

Post #8 of 29 (567 views)
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Well it's kinda like vader and the emperor [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog might be the main villain but he takes orders from the necromancer.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Nov 16 2013, 9:42pm

Post #9 of 29 (541 views)
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I'm sure that is the case... [In reply to] Can't Post

...although it wasn't made clear in AUJ. Azog was definitely the main villain in AUJ.


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Nov 16 2013, 10:19pm

Post #10 of 29 (520 views)
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Smaug should be the main villain [In reply to] Can't Post

He's the primary antagonist of the novel, the reason for the quest. He's the monster that captured the Dwarves' homeland, stole their treasure, and destroyed the town of Dale. He had a profound influence on Thorin, the Company, Bard's ancestors, and the people of Lake-town. He's the reason they need a hobbit burglar in the first place.

I'm not denying the points made by Constant Dreamer and others about Sauron's role. But Sauron should not be the main villain or have more screen time than Smaug. He's the puppet master, a mostly unseen force behind the scenes. He's only just beginning to regain his strength and his forces, which is why he needs Smaug. The Necromancer should be a secondary threat that becomes more prominent as time goes on.

I'm probably just being a purist but it baffles me when people claim that the Necromancer (who's mentioned only fleetingly in the book as a plot device) or Azog (who died a century before the story began) are the primary villains of the movies, rather than Smaug.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Nov 16 2013, 10:34pm

Post #11 of 29 (482 views)
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I don't disagree with what you wrote... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I'm probably just being a purist but it baffles me when people claim that the Necromancer (who's mentioned only fleetingly in the book as a plot device) or Azog (who died a century before the story began) are the primary villains of the movies, rather than Smaug.


But thus far, right or wrong, Azog and his pack have been portrayed as the major immediate threat. Believe me, I wish it wasn't so, but it is. Smaug is still a ways off.

The Necromancer threat should be mostly confined to Gandalf's sub-plot, but indications are that Jackson is going to give the Necromancer a much bigger role.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 16 2013, 10:35pm)


Elskidor
Rohan


Nov 16 2013, 11:52pm

Post #12 of 29 (412 views)
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Nahh [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that Sauron will have a TOO SMALL ROLE. I have the feeling it will be like only 10 minutes of Dol Guldur in this movie. The rest is for example:

Smaug 50%
Mirkwood 25%
Laketown 10%
Erebor 10%
Sauron 5%


UnimpressedUnsureUnimpressed


Willing to bet it's

Queer Lodgings %10
Mirkwood 20%
Laketown 15%
Erebor 15%
Smaug 20%
Sauron 20%


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 12:04am

Post #13 of 29 (412 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

If anything it seems to me that it will enrich the story, particularly since it includes Sir Ian McKellen.

The only thing I am concerned about is that there might be too much emphasis on Turiel and Legolas (who I couldn't care less about), which could take away from the characters that belong in the Hobbit story.


In Reply To
Is anyone else concerned the emphasis on the necromancer/Sauron and the high fells in this movie are going to take away too much of the focus from Smaug who was always meant to be the true villain of this tale?



Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 1:39am

Post #14 of 29 (382 views)
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Legolas belongs in the story... [In reply to] Can't Post

...more than Azog does. At least Legolas' inclusion doesn't contradict anything.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 17 2013, 1:47am)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2013, 4:23am

Post #15 of 29 (318 views)
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IN the book... *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

After Smaug is killed, there is a huge battle with Orcs. They are latecomers, yes. And we are not given any warning they will show up and be important. This event is arguably the climax of the novel, and Smaug (already dead) is not an actor in it.

The difference in the films (it seems) is going to be that we will have some warning of this event, and the Necromancer is going to be involved in setting it up.


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Nov 17 2013, 4:35am

Post #16 of 29 (328 views)
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Smaug is not the main villain here. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron not in the least! The hobbit's true villain is greed. Specifically Thorin's greed. The greed which is broken when Thorin charges into the
BoFA.
Thats the beauty of the book. It illusionises the reader into thinking Smaug as the main villain and at climax finally revealing the primary antagonist was within one of the protahonists itself.
Sadly, by making the quest a noble one the films have pretty messed up the idea.
But I think Pj and co. will pretty much miss the subtle idea in TABA like they did at the Helms deep battle.

(This post was edited by Smeagol Bagginsess on Nov 17 2013, 4:38am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 17 2013, 8:45am

Post #17 of 29 (283 views)
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Time will tell, of course.... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I don't think they have missed that. It was set up in the prologue of AUJ, with Thror's over-attachment to his treasure casting a lengthening shadow and becoming a precursor to the dragon's arrival - and it's emphasised even more in the conversation between Elrond and Gandalf in the extended edition, which Bilbo and Thorin overhear.

Peter Jackson & co are as capable of understanding the subtleties of the book as any of us. Whether it comes across in the adaptation or not will depend on how they balance the various antagonists.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 10:28am

Post #18 of 29 (260 views)
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Rather the opposite... [In reply to] Can't Post

... They have to be careful imho not to overdo it with the greed stuff.

I have to smile a bit reading how subtlety Tolkien did that in the book. Imho, not at all. I think it was plain obvious.


All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Remus
Lorien

Nov 17 2013, 3:46pm

Post #19 of 29 (205 views)
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I would be happy to see [In reply to] Can't Post

more Sauron. But i think we will see and hear him for like 1 minute.... The rest of the 10 minutes of Dol Guldur is Gandalf investigating, talking with Radagast and that HUGE orc army coming forth.


I want more Sauron.

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 3:56pm

Post #20 of 29 (194 views)
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I could be very wrong... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I would bet that we won't see much of Sauron visually. They've already gone with the whole "can't take physical form" thing, and while some might be quick to point out that it's never stated exactly when he lost the ability to take physical form, to me it seems that the implication was that Sauron lost the ability to take physical form when he lost the Ring. But like I said, I could be very wrong. I have no idea what they are going to do with the Necromancer.


Remus
Lorien

Nov 17 2013, 4:01pm

Post #21 of 29 (197 views)
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I agree but [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree he lost his physical form after the last Alliance. But that is more like a physical form. Flesh, blood and bones like a human being for example. He is a wraith now. And he will must surely fight Gandalf in this movie and the White Council in the next. Smile

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 4:10pm

Post #22 of 29 (194 views)
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Maybe he will show up as some sort of shadow... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think we will see a one-on-one duel between Sauron and Gandalf though. If anything we might see some magic from Sauron to incapacitate Gandalf, but a face-to-face duel is probably not going to happen. I think it is more likely that we will see Gandalf dueling with the Nazgul.


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Nov 17 2013, 4:59pm

Post #23 of 29 (182 views)
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Gandalf did prioritise dealing with the Necromancer personally - [In reply to] Can't Post

 - and sent off a group of Dwarves and a Hobbit to deal with the dragon.

That indicates which of the two problems he considered to be more serious at the time. The White Council may also have been a bit uncertain as to just how much of his strength Sauron had regained - the Dark Lord was something of a deceiver, after all.

What I'm wondering is if they actually do cause some serious damage to the Necromancer (in the movie) like interfering with the creation of his latest physical form, or does he pull the 'Gone Out.' trick similar to the book.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2013, 5:03pm

Post #24 of 29 (176 views)
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I think i trust PJ on this one. [In reply to] Can't Post

Even though the execution was a little shoddy (to me it looks like the shadowy figure in the X-Files credits ha ha), i thought the form Sauron had in AUJ was the right direction (much moreso than that ghost Nazgul-- ugh). My hope is that if he does take physical form, and we do actually see him in Dos and/or TaBA, he's some sort of burnt, charred shell of a figure, and not anything too human (or elven or whatever) looking.

Very much looking forward to seeing what they come up with for the Necromancer!


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Nov 17 2013, 5:07pm)


Remus
Lorien

Nov 17 2013, 5:15pm

Post #25 of 29 (178 views)
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This is how i picture Sauron since the Last Alliance [In reply to] Can't Post

http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/loldiffs/AirClientDiff_10_15_2013_1_27_PM/media/Nocturne_Splash_0.jpg

That is how i see Sauron look like EXCEPT the armor and the huge blades on his arms. Burned dark skin and void-like. With no mouth. But still be able to talk of course. He is after all a lesser God (Valar being the Gods) and maybe doesn't need a mouth like mortals. Tongue


Really cool image and in my mind, really fits Sauron. Because he could no longer take a "beautiful" shape/form.

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


(This post was edited by Remus on Nov 17 2013, 5:18pm)

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