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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Anger hug: yay or nay?
Poll: Anger hug: yay or nay?
I loved it/liked it
Didn't like it/Hated it
It was OK:
View Results (59 votes)
 

macfalk
Valinor


Nov 13 2013, 11:25pm

Post #1 of 24 (442 views)
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Anger hug: yay or nay? Can't Post

I love this scene, and was pretty surprised when I found out that many fans either love or hate this scene. For me it felt completely in line with Thorin's character to have such a scene, really love it, it's a touching scene if you ask me. Yet my friend next to me said out loud "That's so Hollywood" so I guess he cringed at it. What did you feel?


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 13 2013, 11:36pm

Post #2 of 24 (285 views)
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I have no clue what you're talking about [In reply to] Can't Post

except, by using the name, Thorin, it must be about one of the Hobbit movies.


Kim
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 12:52am

Post #3 of 24 (278 views)
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I loved it [In reply to] Can't Post

and was a bit surprised when I started lurking here a month or two after the movie came out and found that a lot of people didn't like it. I love warm fuzzies, and this was literally that (heehee). Smile


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 1:32am

Post #4 of 24 (285 views)
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Same here Kim - I love it too [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and was a bit surprised when I started lurking here a month or two after the movie came out and found that a lot of people didn't like it. I love warm fuzzies, and this was literally that (heehee). Smile




Back when I first rejoined I wrote about it, and (quoting myself, how narcissistic, but there it is!) I still feel this way:

*Have been reading lots of posts about this shot. I don't feel it is cliche. I think it shows the real-time evolution of Thorin's thoughts...

"What were you doing...?" The perfectly legitimate question of a very experienced leader to a companion choosing to face a foe far beyond his strength. I can hear him saying the same to Kili or Fili in similar circumstances, perhaps with some profanity scattered about (after all they are family). In addition when Thorin rises after being knocked out time has stopped for him, and the anger and shame of losing to Azog must be very present and terrible for him.
"...you nearly got yourself killed!" Well he did.
"Did I not say you would be a burden..." The next thought is Bilbo would have been dead and Thorin recognizes that that death would be a burden of guilt for the Company and very particularly for him, especially since the immediate event requiring Thorin to be saved was of Thorin's own choice.
"...and that you would not survive..." But Bilbo did survive....and because of that so does Thorin. That is where the final thought evolves...
'I have never been so wrong..." and at that point Bilbo has crossed the gulf and earned some trust. Dwarves feel intensely, trust sparingly. Earning an embrace is like a rite of passage and it is a perfect fit.

I don't think Thorin stood up with the entire interaction already in mind, with the contrasting ideas fully formed. Its an internal, sequential journey.
In short I wouldn't change it at all. Dwarves aren't Elves: they aren't timeless, perfect, elegant. Which is wonderful. *



arithmancer
Grey Havens


Nov 14 2013, 2:14am

Post #5 of 24 (278 views)
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Translation... [In reply to] Can't Post

He is asking our opinion about the scene at the end of AUJ, in which Thorin first seems angry at Bilbo, and then hugs him.

I love that scene, personally! I really liked the way the movie showed Thorin and Bilbo's interactions and thought this scene as a great resolution at the end of the film.


RosieLass
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 3:04am

Post #6 of 24 (277 views)
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My only problem with the scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that it seemed way too early in the movie for a reconciliation with Thorin. Because the next movie is going to start with Thorin hating his guts again.

But then, I think they kinda went overboard with Thorin being a jerk to Bilbo anyway.


(This post was edited by RosieLass on Nov 14 2013, 3:04am)


Kim
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 3:36am

Post #7 of 24 (279 views)
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Very nicely put Brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

I missed that post the first time around, so thanks for quoting yourself. The scene felt very natural and real to me. Smile


Elizabeth
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 7:42am

Post #8 of 24 (253 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

Much too soon. The whole bit of Bilbo attacking to rescue/avenge Thorin was premature and inappropriate at this juncture. Both Bilbo's courage and his relationship with Thorin has a long way to go yet, and introducing zigzags along the way doesn't help.

Bilbo's great speech about coming back to help the Dwarves find a home was a terrific moment, and what we should have been left with, after a bit of wrap-up action.


ArdamŪrŽ
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 7:58am

Post #9 of 24 (256 views)
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Hated it [In reply to] Can't Post

I cringed when it happened. I just hate how Thorin still acts angry at Bilbo even though Bilbo just risked his life to save him. Why couldn't he just have said thank you and left it at that? False anger turning out to be happiness/thanks is such a Hollywood trope, and it had no place in these films.


macfalk
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 11:12am

Post #10 of 24 (227 views)
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Sorry for not making it clearer [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been AWOL from these boards from a while but when I was last here on a daily basis I saw lots of discussions about this scene, which was coined as "the anger hug" so I kind of thought it was sort of common knowledge by now as to what the scene refers to. As others said, it's the scene in the end with Bilbo and Thorin.


Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Nov 14 2013, 3:00pm

Post #11 of 24 (257 views)
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I think it did what it was supposed to do and I loved it [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin is a dwarf, not a man or an elf and his character is that of a grumpy dwarf, not happy, not sleepy not dopey. He reacts in anger more often that not. So the anger we see at the beginning of this interaction is what I would expect.

He doesnít hate Bilbo, he sees Bilbo as a waste of his time, one more thing standing in the way of his goal and there are so many things in the way already. Bilbo becomes the ride-along manifestation of Thorinís frustration with all these challenges. The go-to guy to whinge about when things go wrong, which they do.

Thorinís realization of what Bilbo accomplished goes through phases, like Brethil pointed out.

Anger - Itís his default setting with Bilbo
More anger - Itís his default setting period
Frustration - see above
Realization - this oneís important. I think he not only realizes that Bilbo saved him and the quest, I think the fact that the hobbit far exceeded his expectations stoked the tin little flame of hope in him that they might actually succeed. This quest is not a given in Thorinís mind. Heís driven to embark on it, but he knows the odds of gaining Erebor are slim.
Thanks - Thorin was not always a grumpy dwarf. This ability to give thanks I see as another facet of a young dwarf who was made to grow up too quickly and in circumstances where things for which to give thanks were few. This crack in the surliness I think shows the Thorin that might have been if he had grown up in peace and prosperity. It actually made me sad for Thorin. So much could have been different for him. I understood more of what was driving him because of this.

So, the change of heart that we see, which I personally donít see as trope, is Thorin allowing himself to hope that they will make it and allowing something that had been lost in him to show for a brief moment.

BUT, where once he pinned nothing on Bilbo, now he pins everything on Bilbo - the success of the mission, reclaiming the treasure, *reclaiming the Arkenstone which I think is his real push because it is tied to his right to rule in his mind. So going forward, Bilbo now has very high expectations from Thorin that he must meet. He will not meet all of them and that will send their relationship back to where is was before.

Thorin succumbing to the dragon sickness will make the swing back even more so in my opinion. Bilbo will have to rescue them, find the Arkenstone, figure out what the dragonís weakness it, and make julienne fries too for that matter. The bar will be set very high for Bilbo and any setback will be blamed on him. Itís Thorinís default mode.

It's just an opinion, but I think the ability to enjoy scenes like this is to come to the film with an open mind. If one starts out the scene already peeved that Azog was back (and thus had changed the "canon") one will not like this scene. If one comes to it looking for certain elements of one's own head-canon (saying this or that should be there and be there this way) then you will not like this scene. If one wants a movie devoid of the heroic stuff of legends kinds of scenes then one will probably call "trope" every time something like this is filmed. Shakespeare used this stuff and it was old back then. "Trope" and "canon" are, in my opinion, the biggest "tropes" of the online fan world.

What this scene did for me was set up a number of emotional touchstones. Bilbo showed he could show mercy in the scene before and not kill and then in the very next scene showed he was very ready to kill if needed. Thorin showed that he was able to change his mind about someone. Bilbo showed his worth, something I think was needed early on otherwise why keep dragging him along? And Thorin gave us clues as to his inner struggle against despair.

I loved this scene and I'll even quote RA: "Nailed it."


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Nov 14 2013, 6:30pm

Post #12 of 24 (210 views)
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Loved it! [In reply to] Can't Post

As I don't watch TV and AUJ was the first movie I had gone to see in theaters in about 10 years, I had no idea that the 'anger hug' was a cliche. I was kind of confused when people said it was. I did know that 'anger born of worry' is a trope/cliche (take your pick), but I recognize that many people can and do react to situations in that manner and so I did not find Thorin's reaction to be totally implausible on that account.

I really don't think Thorin had anything particular in mind when he stood up to face Bilbo, other than the knowledge that he has just been saved by the hobbit he thought the least of and that he must somehow rectify the wrong he dealt Bilbo in that regard. I see it as a spontaneous, evolving moment.

Thorin feels a certain responsibility for each member of his Company. Though he denied to Gandalf that he would extend this responsibility to Bilbo, he does. He wouldn't have saved Bilbo in the stone giants scene otherwise. (Also of note, that scene showed Bilbo that Thorin is willing to save any member of his Company, even if he doesn't like them personally. Without this scene and this lesson learned by Bilbo, I think Bilbo's sudden decision to return the favor would have come out of the blue. Just sayin'.)

I find the scene flows quite well. Thorin expresses his anger and worry and then reiterates what he initially believed of Bilbo. He then acknowledges that he was wrong.

The hug may seem OOC for some, but consider that Thorin was in the midst of a very emotional moment. He's seen Azog resurrected, he got smacked down in a fight, he was rescued by a tiny guy with a letter opener, and he's realized that he was guilty of judging said tiny guy too harshly, too quickly. Extreme emotions can prompt impulsive behavior, and I think the hug was such an impulse that Thorin went with. And, okay, I cheered a bit inside when it happened. What can I say? I like it when everyone gets along.

Or, if you like, I've seen an alternate explanation posted somewhere that blood loss affected Thorin's judgment and made him do uncharacteristic actions. Wink


dik-dik
Lorien


Nov 14 2013, 7:26pm

Post #13 of 24 (229 views)
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While I didn't hate it, I didn't like it. [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the change from utter contempt and boorishness (worse than in any of the books used) to chumminess (on a level again never reached in the books) was too abrupt and forced. I don't like 180% character switches. No idea where they'll take the relationship in movie 2, and would have preferred a slow building of trust between Bilbo and Thorin.


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 9:57pm

Post #14 of 24 (189 views)
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Thanks back Kim! It felt that way to me too. // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I missed that post the first time around, so thanks for quoting yourself. The scene felt very natural and real to me. Smile



elaen32
Gondor


Nov 14 2013, 10:09pm

Post #15 of 24 (189 views)
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I agree and like your analysis Brethil [In reply to] Can't Post

I missed seeing this first time around- it was about a month before I de-lurked and I was not able to lurk that effectively in January!! I always equate this scene to the worried parent who does not know whether to yell at or hug their offspring. I remember my mother yelling at me, as a child, on one such occasion when a friend and I had got ourselves into a scrape. Eventually, both my mother and I ended in tears and a hug and I think this sort of reaction- anxiety-> anger-> relief is very common in real life imoAngelic


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 10:18pm

Post #16 of 24 (214 views)
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Yup - your illustration is the perfect one Elaen [In reply to] Can't Post

with the attitude 'evolving', like parent and errant child. And I think the relative time break is crucial to understanding Thorin in that scene: he has had no recovery time and wakes at a disadvantage *and* still filled with the raw emotion of the encounter with Azog (which I feel was a committed choice of honorable death versus a dishonorable one).

To have him stand up and be fully cognizant and reasonable would, I think, be a continuity and character error. I know it is a polarizing scene but I 'felt' it was right from the first view - but just an IMHO there!


Na Vedui
Rohan


Nov 15 2013, 12:25am

Post #17 of 24 (192 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

"I always equate this scene to the worried parent who does not know whether to yell at or hug their offspring."

That was rather my reaction too. And despite saying he won't be responsible etc etc., that's not how Thorin actually behaves whenever Bilbo is in danger - right from the start, in the situation with the trolls. I think part of his exasperation with Bilbo's presence is that however much he'd like to, he can't *not* feel responsible and concerned for this fourteenth member of his company, however useless he thinks he is. Whatever faults Thorin has, he's not a cold person.

And I always have a little grin when he says "You could have got yourself killed". Coming right after his mad assault on Azog, talk about the pot calling the kettle!


Elskidor
Rohan


Nov 15 2013, 1:19am

Post #18 of 24 (214 views)
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IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

It was one of the best parts of the film. It was also a good way to wrap things up.


imin
Valinor


Nov 15 2013, 11:25pm

Post #19 of 24 (226 views)
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Cringed [In reply to] Can't Post

Strongly disliked it, felt forced and cliched. Was given the EE of the AUJ and have literally just watched that scene, still as bad as ever, lol.


malickfan
Gondor


Nov 19 2013, 6:58pm

Post #20 of 24 (115 views)
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I absolutely loathed this scene [In reply to] Can't Post

Cliched, forced, obvious, hammy and another example of Jackson and Co rewriting the story to give character arcs that will only end up being reversed anyway, another reason I'm not very keen on the Aragornisation of Thorin, felt rather odd and sudden after the excess of Goblin Town as well.


RosieLass
Valinor


Nov 19 2013, 8:16pm

Post #21 of 24 (126 views)
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What's funny is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that Peter Jackson's Thorin is a better Aragorn than Aragorn was.

(IMHO, of course)


malickfan
Gondor


Nov 19 2013, 9:51pm

Post #22 of 24 (119 views)
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Well I (partially) agree with you there [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't read LOTR till after seeing the films, and even at the young age of 15 I found very little similarities between Book and Movie Aragorn (frankly it seemed like they based Movie Aragorn on the appendices material about him-the screenwriters seem to have an odd fascination with them...), but in some ways that was a blessing-the change was so great I found it easier to accept the differences and view the two as separate-Viggo Mortensen was brilliant as the warrior king, but John Hurt's Aragorn in the Baksi films was far closer to what I imagine from the books (Mortensen looks more or less how I pictured Bard).

As for Thorin, my feelings were posted a while back:

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=648764;#648764

I found Thorin in the book to be a grumpy b*stard, but one I empathized with, Thorin in the film mostly bored me, even though he seemed more real as an individual.


mj
Registered User


Nov 26 2013, 7:05pm

Post #23 of 24 (61 views)
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*is looking for the 'like' button* // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I cringed when it happened. I just hate how Thorin still acts angry at Bilbo even though Bilbo just risked his life to save him. Why couldn't he just have said thank you and left it at that? False anger turning out to be happiness/thanks is such a Hollywood trope, and it had no place in these films.



sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 30 2013, 11:26am

Post #24 of 24 (64 views)
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It doesn't ruin anything for me, [In reply to] Can't Post

but i think it is pretty clichŤ, and a bit overdone, approaching cheezy territory. It feels like what it probably was-- a quickly added "emotional" ending for this part of the film, likely the result of the 2 to 3 film split. The Carrock is such an awesome lacation though, and the eagles scene was just before it (probably the single coolest moment in AUJ, along with Gandalf arriving in Goblin Town), that it's easy for me to give it a pass. And i do like it whenever Bilbo gives one of his little speeches (Martin Freeman is so great!).

 
 

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