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peterLF
Rivendell
Nov 15 2013, 6:10am
Post #1 of 51
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Is Thorin going to come off as WEAK...?
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Considering the simplifications of the book into an easily understood movie, certain changes are made... Some changing relationships, motifs and morals.
In the book, Dain kills Azog (immediately) as revenge for killing his father Nain. Dain is considered one of the best warriors amongst the dwarves, and needs some sort of presence to ultimately be crowned King Under the Mountain - he certainly have got the skills.
Thorin however is a known character to the casual viewer. He shares the same wanting of revenge as Dain from Azog killing of his grandfather Thror.
Question is... Will Peter Jackson follow the book and give the kill to Dain and set him up to be "top dog" - or does he give it to Thorin so Thorin won't come off as weak? For let's face it - without getting Azog, Thorin seems to be the only one that doesn't get his vengeance...
The Dain/Nain and the Thorin/Thror storylines are so similar they could easily be combined. But somehow I feel Dain can't be ignored to this extent without it seeming weird him being crowned king. And I don't think Connolly can be told to be quiet for very long periods at a time, so Dain is probably not going to be just a side character.
What are your thoughts?
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 6:48am
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I see Thorin's tale as a tragedy.
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All his goals are accomplished by others (Bard, Dain (in the books, at least) , even Bilbo) while he loses sight of what's truly important and brings disaster on those around him.
He sets out to reclaim what he considers to be his (and in some ways, his alone) and lets pride and greed get the better of him.
I suspect that, after what happens in the Hobbit Trilogy, people may appreciate movie Aragorn's reluctance to claim the throne of Gondor a little more.
___________________________________________________
From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.
(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Nov 15 2013, 6:50am)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2013, 7:16am
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It is a tragedy!
....when I read people calling for Thorin to have the satisfaction of killing Azog, "because he deserves something for all his troubles" (something that may well be likely due to Hollywood convention) it is similar to wanting to rewrite a happy ending for "Romeo and Juliet" 
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Nov 15 2013, 7:17am)
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tarasaurus
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 8:04am
Post #4 of 51
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something i said the other day
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in the chat on TORn, was a sequence of a lot of revenge plots.
Thorin eventually kills Azog, which infuriates Bolg. Bolg kills Thorin, which infuriates Beorn. Beorn kills Bolg.
Of course I'm not sure any of this will happen, just some thoughts I've had. 
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Briza
Bree
Nov 15 2013, 10:08am
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In my eyes thorin could partly redeem himself....
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by beating Legolas up, that would make me happy. Leggy could sneak into the lonely mountain and while surfing down something get gets caught by Thorin who absolutely humiliates him and he runs away crying back to Mirkwood and not to be seen for the rest of the movie.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Nov 15 2013, 10:53am
Post #6 of 51
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I think there will be tragedy enough, Eleniel
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And personally would like to see Thorin kill Azog (it still won't make for a 'happy ending').
It is a tragedy! ....when I read people calling for Thorin to have the satisfaction of killing Azog, "because he deserves something for all his troubles" (something that may well be likely due to Hollywood convention) it is similar to wanting to rewrite a happy ending for "Romeo and Juliet" |
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 11:49am
Post #7 of 51
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'Weak' is far too simplistic a word
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to describe the layered portrait that I'm sure that Armitage will give us and the interpretation that PJ and PB have put onto this developed Thorin.
Armitage sees him as 'tragic' and has mentioned Macbeth but Macbeth establishes such empathy that I, for one, am still rooting for him at the end of the play. And Thorin doesn't descend to the evil, murderous depths that Macbeth does.
Tragedy doesn't necessarily preclude revenge. I went to see Titus Andronicus in Stratford on Avon a few weeks ago. Titus is, basically, a good and decent man who just goes down the wrong road which results in the death of his sons and the extreme abuse of his daughter. The last scene is a spectacular bloodbath where Titus well and truly gets his own back before being killed himself. Similarly, Hamlet gets his revenge on Claudius before dying himself. Very satisfying.
Thus, I want the satisfaction of seeing Thorin kill Azog before dying himself.
Between RA's portrayal and the script, I don't think we shall feel that he 'deserves' what happens to him or that he is weak. The initial greed of the dwarves has been changed to a desire to reclaim their homeland and Thorin's later greed isn't going to be depicted in a straight forward way but as a sickness which he fights and then succumbs to. In the excised scene in Rivendell, we see the fear in his eyes as Gandalf and Elrond discuss his potential for madness. More sympathy/empathy.
Thorin has waited a long tome to return to Erebor - it hasn't been a greedy rush for gold - and it looks as though we are going to see Gandalf doing a Lady Macbeth in Bree, pushing Thorin into things for his own purposes. Thorin feels a burden which he must fulfil for his people: it's not all selfish motives but comes across as a noble quest.
I think there will also be a question mark over the obvious hero, Bard. Luke Evans implies that we won't know if he is a good or a bad person and we see this in the trailer, I think, when he says that Thorin has no right to enter the Mountain and many viewers have sat back and blinked and said, "Hey, of course he does!" and have sided with Thorin's response.
I think that, with all the main characters - Thorin, Thranduil, Bard, Bilbo - it will be difficult to pin a simple tag on them: weak, arrogant, bad, heroic, selfless etc. I am expecting more than this from these actors and I think they are already giving it to us. It will build up, I hope, to a complex and satisfying finale.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2013, 11:55am
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Well, he does succumb to greed...
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...which could easily be construed as a sign of weakness. They've already done a whole lot to portray Thorin as much more competent and "kingly" in these films than he was portrayed in the book (at least IMO), so his fall may hit even harder in the films.
As for Azog's death, for me it all depends when that ctully ends up occuring. If it happens in DoS, then I'm fine with Thorin being the one to kill Azog. But Jackson's hinted that Azog is going to be present for all 3 films, so if Azog makes it to the Bo5A, then I would rather see Dain Ironfoot be the one to kill him. My reasons are that firstly, Dain kills Azog in the books (albeit 90 years prior to the start of the story), so no matter what the audience or Screenwriting 101 might demand, this is still an adaptation of Tolkien's work - IMO the closer they keep to Tolkien's books, the better. And secondly, Dain *SPOILER* is supposed to become "King under the Mountain", so he really does need to have a heroic moment, and what better way to achieve that than having him do what he should have done at Azanulbizar?
I'm not at all concerned with Thorin getting revenge on Azog or Bolg or anything like that. Thorin never gets any sort of revenge in the books, so I see no reason why he needs to get any in the films, other than a "feel-good" moment for the audience.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2013, 12:30pm
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It is a tragedy!....when I read people calling for Thorin to have the satisfaction of killing Azog, "because he deserves something for all his troubles"
I kind of equate the idea of Thorin killing Azog as similar to he proposed idea of Aragorn dueling with Sauron. Jackson felt that the audience needed to witness Aragorn having a physical duel with Sauron because it's typical formula to have the hero duking it out with his arch-nemesis. But Jackson VERY WISELY decided against going that route, because it doesn't happen in the story, and in fact would have been completely against the spirit of the story. At the end of the day they are adapting Tolkien's stories, not making up stories of their own.
So if Azog makes it to the Bo5A, I say just let Dain do what he should have done at Azanulbizar, instead of going for the usual feel-good movie trope. Thorin being an abject failure due to his own pride and greed is a big part of the story, and I see no reason why that shouldn't also extend to this made-up feud between him and Azog.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Nov 15 2013, 12:40pm)
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Elskidor
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 2:26pm
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Jackson felt that the audience needed to witness Aragorn having a physical duel with Sauron
Now that just made me spit out my coffee! WTH, lol.
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 2:59pm
Post #11 of 51
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- to end up killing Azog, Bolg or Smaug, but I wouldn't be against a scene of him defending Bilbo during the BO5A as one of his last acts of redemption.
___________________________________________________
From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 3:50pm
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One of the things I like about Tolkien is that he is a plot maverick. His denouements make perfect sense with hindsight in terms of the characters involved, but aren't predictable by formula in advance. Frodo's failure at the last moment and the situation being saved by Gollum of all people (and without any unconvincing change of heart on Gollum's part, either), the Witchking falling to Eowyn and Merry, the team of Bilbo, thrush and Bard who see off Smaug - this all comes right out of left field.
In fact, having just written all that, I'm struck by what all these have in common, which is teamwork (albeit unintentional on the part of Frodo and Gollum). Like the defeat of Sauron as a whole, they are ensemble efforts rather than the exploit of a single hero. I don't think this is an accident.
And quite a few of Tolkien's heroes don't get the classic one-on-one showdown with an arch-villain that heroes are "supposed" to get. Or they do, and don't win. Théoden, for example. One theme I think was important for Tolkien was the old Northern ideal of courage in the face of hopeless odds; not the triumphant hero, but the hero who knows he can't win but fights to the end nonetheless.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 4:04pm
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Which is the bigger victory; Erebor reclaimed or Azog bested? SPOILERS!
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If Thorin needs a victory, it need not come from besting Azog; There is, after all, the reclamation of the Lonely Mountain, the entire purpose of the quest. Though not through his actions alone, that is Thorin's big victory, and it should be celebrated. Putting more emphasis on whether or not he killed Azog, than on Erebor reclaimed, I think would be to miss the point of the quest entirely.
As Gandalf puts in in the Unfinished Tales; "Poor Thorin! He was a great Dwarf of a great House, whatever his faults; and though he fell at the end of the journey, it was largely due to him that the Kingdom under the Mountain was restored, as I desired." I'd rather they pay homage to that, and celebrate Erebor reclaimed, than make a victory against Azog out to be Thorin's defining victory. There are more types of victory than that delivered by sword.
The way I picture it, Balin would join Bilbo at Thorin's deathbed, and would comfort Thorin by saying something akin to "you have won a greater victory than any of us could have hoped for. You have won back Erebor for our people". That, I think, is far more poignant than any variation of "you bested the Pale Orc".
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Nov 15 2013, 4:14pm)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2013, 4:56pm
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Great posts, Macfeast - and NaVedui, I couldn't agree more. That is why the "mainstreaming" of TH, ticking off the boxes to conform to the perceived successful blockbuster formula is totally missing the point of Tolkien's style and spirit. That is why I do so hope PJ will ignore Hollywood convention on this.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Nov 15 2013, 6:10pm
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This is a great post! I thought of something the other day, the "showdown" that Thorin had with Azog at the end of AUJ, where he's fallen and Kili, Fili & Dwalin come to defend him. That's kind of foreshadowing the end of the series, IMO. If I remember correctly, the book says his nephews fell while defending him, and if PJ follows the book here it would make sense that Thorin fights, and is mortally wounded by either Azog or Bolg, who then goes on to kill the nephews before being finally slaughtered by Dain. (Hope Dwalin survives all this!) I know the nephews die because Aidan Turner talked about it in an interview (so sad ), and I think that would also follow the above-mentioned idea of the teamwork that takes place in Tolkien's world. And it would also set up Dain as being the new King as well. Having said that, I suppose such an end for Thorin might appear "weak" to some, but not everyone will see it that way.
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Nov 15 2013, 6:27pm
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I hate all this talk of vengeance as a necessary element of the plot. I feel that it debases the original storyline. Personally, I feel that Bilbo will be the one who kills or enables the killing of Azog, just as he enabled the death of Smaug. It seems like the filmmakers are setting this conflict up between Bilbo and Azog when Bilbo foils the pale orc's plan amidst the burning trees and the two lock eyes for a prolonged shot as Azog ponders "who is this little meddling, furry little creature who's causing me problems?" and Bilbo thinks "I've just royally pissed off this hulking monstrosity; this probably mean's I'll have to deal with him again". While it deviates significantly from the original storyline, I think that of all the characters Bilbo deserves the role of slaying or otherwise causing Azog's demise.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Nov 15 2013, 6:43pm
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That would be a good idea, Macfeast
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I just think Thorin needs to achieve some 'reward' in the film, for all that he has suffered, particularly bearing in mind what happens to him. To me, it would be horrible to see a noble (if flawed) character exit the film with nothing to show for all his efforts.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2013, 7:28pm
Post #18 of 51
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...you didn't know about that? It was in the Appendices for the RotK film. They actually filmed Aragorn fighting with Sauron at the Black Gate, but Jackson eventually came to his senses and digitally replaced Sauron with a Troll.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 15 2013, 7:42pm
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Maybe if Bilbo indirectly causes the death of Azog, but I don't want to see him kill Azog personally. Bilbo is not a fighter. IIRC, he is knocked out for most of the Bo5A in the book. I doubt that will be the case for the films, but I really hope they don't turn him into some sort of warrior for the Bo5A. I already thought they went too far by having Bilbo brutally slay an Orc at the pine trees.
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 7:48pm
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I've never interpreted the phrase about Fili and kili dying defending Thorin with body and sword as them rushing to the aid of a wounded Thorin, although I know a lot of people do. From my reading of Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse literature, this just means that they were doing what all warriors were meant to do: they protected the leader because it was so important that he didn't fall to the enemy. And if they failed in that duty then it brought great shame upon them.
Thorin and a group of his men have driven a wedge into the enemy and are surrounded: time to circle the wagons and for everyone to make sure that their king is safe. It doesn't mean that he was wounded. It's just a common phrase in Anglo-Saxon for a style of fighting and, when I first read it, I recognised and approved of Tolkien's use of it .
I still reckon that F&K will be killed first and that Thorin will go berserk in his fury. In a recent interview, RA says that, in this battle, he has never had to fight with such anger and fury before and that this made him go around angry all day.
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 8:00pm
Post #21 of 51
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with the death of Azog 'debases' the original plot line even more, it seems to me, Aitieuriskon.
Thorin taking revenge is not me being Hollywoodish and I object to the insinuation of those who reckon that anyone who wants this is bowing to the lowest common denominator. Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon literature, Shakespeare and the Jacobean tragedians all approve of revenge as a motive or a finale to their stories - and that was long before Hollywood came on the scene.
However, what Hollywood DOES approve of is the survival of the hero and I have sometimes been shocked to see Hollywood remake a great European film like Vanishing Point where they can't bear to see the hero die at the end of the film and somehow they engineer a rescue.
I certainly don't want Thorin, Fili or Kili to survive even though there are calls for this across the internet and even on TORn.
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glor
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 8:33pm
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what Hollywood DOES approve of is the survival of the hero
Oh yes, that is exactly what would happen if The Hobbit was truly Hollywoodised.
Revenge in the classic and historical sense did not have the negative connotations that modern societies attribute to the act of retribution. Revenge was closely tied to notions of honour, nobility and even heroicism.
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Nov 15 2013, 8:58pm
Post #23 of 51
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Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but I find it debasing to Tolkien's story because revenge is not meant to be positively rewarded in the legendarium. Those who allow themselves to be driven to violent retribution tend to end up on the wrong end of a swordpoint and die without having accomplished anything productive. This is exactly why tragedians have found revenge to be a strong motivator, but the key to this is the lack of any meaningful reward gained for the vengeful individual. Their deaths are tragic because not because of some inherent tragedy in death itself, but because death left their vengeance unfulfilled/empty. This is why Thorin cannot be permitted to kill Azog, regain the mountain for his friends, and die having accomplished what he set out to do. Where's the tragedy in that?
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Nov 15 2013, 9:04pm
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I don't want to see Bilbo take on some sort of warrior persona, but I do think he should be involved in the death of Azog. Ultimately Dain should still kill the orc and justify his claiming the crown. I just think Bilbo needs to play some part in it so that his character remains significant during the apparently lengthy version of the battle that we'll be getting now that we know it will make up the bulk of film 3.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Nov 15 2013, 9:12pm
Post #25 of 51
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that he is full of honourable intentions but goes mad and dies without fully coming into his kingdom, winning Erebor for others but not for himself as someone else has mentioned. And DIES.
Hamlet sets a disaster in motion by NOT taking revenge immediately. If only he had killed Claudius at the beginning rather than the end, it would have saved a lot of lives. In the film, if only Thorin had finished the job and killed Azog at Azanulbizar then he would also have prevented a lot of problems. With the story that PJ has given us (and whether he was right to do so is a wholly different argument) I still believe that the correct way forward is for Thorin to kill Azog and then die asking Bilbo for forgiveness: it is the revenge, forgiveness, redemption cycle.
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